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[Sylvianus]

You do realise that the only reason Celene took power was because she was party to the assassination of the previous emperor. Lady Mantillon was Emperor Florians mistress, and killed him so that Celene, could take power, and Celene was aware of that. So Gaspard doing essentially the same thing, except that he would be doing the deed himself is on par with what Celene did, if not slightly better as he is willing to act himself instead of using a third party.

 

Now I am not a Gaspard supporter, but I am not a Celene supporter either, the book really has me conflicted on who I like more. I see plenty of pros and cons for the both of them. Both Celene and Gaspard have done distasteful deeds to ensure their rise to power, and neither could be considered "innocent," but they both have the best interest of Orlais at heart, it is just that they have different opinions on what is actually the best course for Orlais.

 

You can dislike Gaspard all you want, but don't claim that he is some moustache twirling evil villain when Celene has done things that are just as bad as what he has done. That is how the Game is played in Orlais.

 

Thank you. I can respect people that don't like Gaspard, i can respect people that disagree with gaspard because of his goals. But those who are telling that Gaspard is a villain, while defending Celene at the same time, nope, I have no respect for their opinion.

[Maraas]

(grumpily): I have a feeling I have spoiled myself The Masked Empire big time. Good thing I'm in no condition to actually remember any of it.

[Hydromatic]

Gaspard and Celene are both assholes in their own right.

 

Maybe i'll just kill them both and take power myself.

[Asdrubael Vect]

i would execute both Celine and Gaspar with all their Chivalier and Bards and i would execute Divine with all her Orlais Chanty priests and Templars/Seekers

[Hanako Ikezawa]

First, any Chevalier that did not join that order of knighthood to be abusive but was, in fact, coerced into commiting one abusive action; and yes, "coerced" is the correct word because the Chevaliers motto is "Death before dishonor", disobeying a direct order from your superios is dishonorable which suggests any recruit that refuses to undergot the initiation will be killed; is not an abusive *******.

I'd like to point out the the people who are holding the metaphorical and quite possibly literal sword over the Chevalier's neck is still fitting of the term. "Do something that will haunt you for your life or die" is a pretty abusive and a**holish ultimatum. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 War crime ? You do realize that this notion didn't exist in medevial times ? Murdering civilians ? What does even mean civilian in medevial times ? There are peasants, merchants, etc, victims and that's all. And peasants were always the first ones to suffer and often for nothing. Soldiers, chevaliers and lords killed them at war or at peace at will. The point of Lady Payne is that all your notions about war crimes, human rights and conventions of Geneva didn't exist at all. Hard people for hard times. Killing a few peasants for soldiers meant nothing. I've read the whole 100 year war between france and England. Nobody gave a crap about peasants, not even to defend them. Often their own armies plundered what they had and ravaged their cities. Where were people screaming against them because of " war crimes " ? Nobody. All the soldiers moved on and nobody was upset. Some chevaliers and folks could personally feel uncomfortable but there was no global mentality that condemned this kind of hostile behavior toward what you call " civilians. ". So when chevaliers are asked to kill some peons elves, it's not so horrible as it would be considered today. There is definitely a barrier that separates our reality from theirs.That's what Lady of Payne is saying. We're not in 2014.

 

There 's no human rights, there's no second world war which happened and helped humanity to think about the horrible things we are able to do, that's something people should take into account even if it justifies nothing. I personally find it ridiculous when people aren't even able to understand that point.

 

Expansonism, racism, the thought of superiority over other people, imperialism, being a warmonger against another country, people thinking peasants worth nothing, all those things happened in the past, were common in real life in most countries and during a looooong time.

 

So when I see people saying, " i'm going to burn a whole country because its society is racist or snob ", I'm either thinking they are f*cking kidding or they know nothing about history in real life. People in medieval times in real life in most countries were racists, nationalists, homophobic, religious fanatics, intolerant, etc etc. And among them, there were still good people. it wasn't black and white.

 

Obviously, countries need times and ages to grow up, improve themself, and change their mindset.

 

Personally, when I see a racist, instead of wanting to " kill him ", sheeh,I'd rather prefer to convince him that he's wrong.

 

The Chevaliers are awesome to me if I look at Ser Michel and Gaspard. A powerful organization that can fight the darkspawn, any powerful ennemy. The obvious smart thing to do for me would be only to change the rule about kiling elves for the initiation instead of killing everyone like a fool. it will not revive the dead to kill hundreds useful warriors, the proud of the country by the way. The core problem is the system that could be easily resolved with new rules.

THEDAS. IS. NOT. MEDIEVAL. EUROPE.

 

Again, medieval Europe was a lot worse than Thedas was in terms of for example homophobia or sexism, yet those are practically nonexistent in most parts of Thedas. Should we let those exist because they did in medieval times as well? 

[Ryzaki]

As of the end of the book, his fighting days are over.

I hope that means the Inquisitor will have the option to stand as his Champion at one point.

 

 

That's true.

 

 

Aww I wanted to kick his rear personally.

 

Hopefully it'll be a choice between killing Celene for Gaspard or Gaspard for Celene. \o/

 

I guess the second best choice would be a Fereldan human having Gaspard get outsmarted and outplayed by a dog lord would be amusing. Would be triple moment of awesome too...Fereldan where heroes are born
 

[The Baconer]

Beating a crippled man,

(claps)

Never have I seen more valor.

 

I'm sure Karma would appreciate the irony.

[EmperorSahlertz]

THEDAS. IS. NOT. MEDIEVAL. EUROPE.

 

Again, medieval Europe was a lot worse than Thedas was in terms of for example homophobia or sexism, yet those are practically nonexistent in most parts of Thedas. Should we let those exist because they did in medieval times as well? 

No, but judging medieval society by modern standards is intellectually dishonest.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, but judging medieval society by modern standards is intellectually dishonest.

Not really. Compared to now, medieval times were barbaric and we should be ashamed of what was considered acceptable by our ancestors. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about that viewpoint.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not really. Compared to now, medieval times were barbaric and we should be ashamed of what was considered acceptable by our ancestors. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about that viewpoint.

Yes there is, when you start thinking about what was known and believed at that time.

 

Saying that modern society is superior to medieval society is not intellectually dishonest. Saying that medieval society SHOULD be more like modern society is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes there is, when you start thinking about what was known and believed at that time.

 

Saying that modern society is superior to medieval society is not intellectually dishonest. Saying that medieval society SHOULD be more like modern society is.

No. Society should always strive to be better. That's how they advance. There's nothing wrong with having our viewpoints transfer to our characters and have them strive to right the wrongs and punish those who committed said wrongs. That's what happened in the real world. 

[Sylvianus]

cancel

[Sylvianus]

THEDAS. IS. NOT. MEDIEVAL. EUROPE.

 

Again, medieval Europe was a lot worse than Thedas was in terms of for example homophobia or sexism, yet those are practically nonexistent in most parts of Thedas. Should we let those exist because they did in medieval times as well? 

 

You are the one talking about war crimes against civilians, that notion that doesn't exist in Thedas, or we have seen nothing yet. ( Or we definitely didn't play the same games ) I just wanted to illustrate the fact that Thedas has not the same modern mindset we have, * like medieval times * it's pretty ruthless and still is a bit barbaric in many parts of the continent, like I intended to show with real life examples. And it's something we should never forget. That's it. That you want to kill every " bad guy " according to your personal values, it's okay, but arguing about modern notions like war crimes  against civilians is a bit meh in my opinion. Using the word nazi  is particularly the worst analogy ever, since it does eradicate the fact that the world of Thedas didn't exactly reach the era of humanism and industrial. ( I didn't say you used this word, just an example i've seen )

 

You'd talk about that to a thedosian, he wouldn't understand what you are saying. We shouldn't forget that as players, we live in another time with different thoughts from Thedosians. It doesn't prevent us to fight for what we believe, but it also helps to think that what we consider something horrible today wasn't for many people.

 

The day, there will be things like international laws against war crimes, you can call me.

 

For example, All my characters are fighting against slavery, but because my characters believes it's wrong. But I won't say that someone killing a prisoner during war between two countries is a criminal of war because he didn't respect the rules according to the convention of Geneva. That's ridiculous. That notion doesn't exist in Thedas, like it didn't exist in medieval times.

[In Exile]

No, but judging medieval society by modern standards is intellectually dishonest.

 

No, it isn't. Anymore than judging spousal abuse in a culture that condones it is intellectually dishonest. The fact that torture, abuse, or systematic rape were tolerated just means that the moral values of those culture were and should be disregarded and criticized.  

[In Exile]

The day, there will be things like international laws against war crimes, you can call me.

 

International law is not a modern invention. There was an international system of laws that existed at the time, even if you discount the international reach of the church. The legal system was less developed, less systematized, but there was a standard form for inter-country relations. 

[Sylvianus]

International law is not a modern invention. There was an international system of laws that existed at the time, even if you discount the international reach of the church. The legal system was less developed, less systematized, but there was a standard form for inter-country relations. 

 

I know. But I'm specifically talking about international laws concerning war crimes against humanity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, it isn't. Anymore than judging spousal abuse in a culture that condones it is intellectually dishonest. The fact that torture, abuse, or systematic rape were tolerated just means that the moral values of those culture were and should be disregarded and criticized.  

You can disrespect and disregard it all you want. You are still being intellectually dishonest when you want to impose standards unknown to the culture.

 

If you judge a man in a differnet day and age (and this case entirely different world), by your own modern standards, you are being intellectually dishonest. You let your own convictions cloud the issue.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What's your point ?

 

You are the one talking about war crimes against civilians, that notion that doesn't exist in Thedas, or we have seen nothing yet. ( Or we definitely didn't play the same games ) I just wanted to illustrate the fact that Thedas has not the same modern mindset we have, * like medieval times * it's pretty ruthless and still is a bit barbaric in many parts of the continent, like I intended to show with real life examples. And it's something we should never forget. That's it. That you want to kill every " bad guy " according to your personal values, it's okay, but arguing with modern notions and standars like war crimes, U.  against civilians serves is a bit me in my opinion. Using the word nazi  is particularly the worst analogy ever, since it does eradicate the fact that the world of Thedas didn't exactly reach tthe era of humanism and industrial.

 

You'd talk about that to a thedosian, he wouldn't understand what you are saying. We shouldn't forget that as players, we live in another time with different thoughts from Thedosians. It doesn't prevent us to fight for what we believe, but it also helps to think that what we consider something horrible today wasn't for many people.

 

The day, there will be things like international laws against war crimes, you can call me.

 

For example, I won't say that someone killing many soldiers captured during war between two countries is a criminal of war because he didn't fit the convention of Geneva. That's ridiculous. That notion doesn't exist in Thedas, like he didn't exist in medevial times.

My point is don't compare two things that are much more different than similar.

 

I'm talking crimes in general against a civilian population, not just war crimes. And yes Thedas had international laws against crimes against civilians. For example, slavery is outlawed in all but Tevinter.

[Sylvianus]

And yes Thedas had international laws against crimes against civilians. For example, slavery is outlawed in all but Tevinter.

Nope. It's not international. it's just forbidden in most countries. This isn't something they decided together.

[EmperorSahlertz]

My point is don't compare two things that are much more different than similar.

 

I'm talking crimes in general against a civilian population, not just war crimes. And yes Thedas had international laws against crimes against civilians. For example, slavery is outlawed in all but Tevinter.

I don't think that last one is actually international law, as much as it is just the other nations all being in agreement on the matter.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is no evidence that it wasn't an international decision, while the Chantry, an international organization, opposes the practice(It was founded by following the beliefs of a woman who led the largest slave revolt in history). So if the Chantry was what set it, which is most likely since the only other option would be Orlais whose nobility still did it in secret, then yes it is an international law. 

[In Exile]

You can disrespect and disregard it all you want. You are still being intellectually dishonest when you want to impose standards unknown to the culture.

 

If you judge a man in a differnet day and age (and this case entirely different world), by your own modern standards, you are being intellectually dishonest. You let your own convictions cloud the issue.

 

No, you're not. There's no debate to be had here, but if you want to go around thinking that cultures where, for example, sexual abuse or genital mutilation is rampant can't be viewed as abhorrent because from a culture-specific POV these practices are OK, it's your business.

 

Not to mention that all the things we're talking about were seen as wrongs in medieval times. Torture, rape, killing - none of these things were OK, or morally justified, or tolerated. In fact, the vast majority of theory and commentary on morality at the time focused on the wrongness of these things. What happened, instead, was that these things were used because they were effective and people in power wanted to use them, much like how a great deal of political unstable countries IRL still use tactics like this today. 

[In Exile]

Nope. It's not international. it's just forbidden in most countries. This isn't something they decided together.

 

International law doesn't require treaties or a consensus between countries. Look up the principle of "comity", or otherwise just generally research Private International Law. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, you're not. There's no debate to be had here, but if you want to go around thinking that cultures were, for example, sexual abuse or genital mutilation is rampant can't be viewed as abhorrent because from a culture-specific POV these practices are OK, it's your business.

 

Not to mention that all the things we're talking about were seen as wrongs in medieval times. Torture, rape, killing - none of these things were OK, or morally justified, or tolerated. In fact, the vast majority of theory and commentary on morality at the time focused on the wrongness of these things. What happened, instead, was that these things were used because they were effective and people in power wanted to use them, much like how a great deal of political unstable countries IRL still use tactics like this today. 

Of course it can be viewed as abhorent. Especially if concurrent. The problem arises when you try to apply modern standards to a historical society that clearly does not subscribe to them. Or in this case to a fictional world in which such standards clearly have never developed.

 

Claiming that a man was a bad man, because he lived by his concurrent standards, is being intellectually dishonest.