702 réponses à ce sujet

[Oni Changas]

Fix ME2. Then we'll talk about ME3.

It was ME3's job to justify ME2. ME3 fucked up by ignoring most of what came before (such as Drew K's canon novels).

[Jorji Costava]

Personally, I don't think conventional victory is a good idea narratively and thematically. 

 

Care to explain why?

[Iakus]

You're missing the point. The point is that the Reapers are going to wipe the floor with you, and you're going to do jack to them. Period. It doesn't matter what the Reapers criteria is. They can be as picky as they like and get everyone they need. There's nothing anyone can do about it beyond the Crucible. 

 

Good luck with that. Thanix isn't going to be a problem solver like you think it is. To be honest, it might be more effective than standard weapons, but to expand on the tank analogy I've been using, instead of a bow and arrows or a handgun, now you have a Machine gun or AT4 against a tank. With the former, you're just going to waste ammunition. With the latter, you're going to waste time. You might do some superficial damage or blow up a tread, but it's still going to turn it's turret on you and turn you into a red cloud. Honestly, I don't believe that there's anything that we'd ever be able to make that's not the Crucible or the Leviathan's control mechanism that would ever be a threat to the Reapers. They're sufficiently advanced enough to tank anything you throw at them. Doesn't matter how far outside the box you think. They're going to have you covered at every angle. A nuclear pumped laser is going to do jack to them. 

 

Nothing short of full Reaper tech is going to slow them down. They're too advanced. There's nothing that we have or could ever realistically have that can fight them.

 

Use the Crucible, or burn. That's your choice.

 

Where are you getting this "The Reapers are invulnerable" from?  Seriously.

 

Once Sovereign's barriers were down, a few Javelin missiles were all it took to turn it into space calimari.  The structures themselves don't seem to be all that sturdy.

 

Of course, given the Rannoch Reaper, I suppose it's more accurate to say they're as sturdy as Mac says they are.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Care to explain why?

 

I think the idea behind the games is to sort of showcase Shepard and the power fantasy behind him. And a conventional victory does detract from that power-fantasy behind Shepard. It's about being a special snowflake, being 'god'. 

 

The Reapers were certainly too powerful to be a force that could ever be handled beyond a superweapon as well.

[DeinonSlayer]

The best thing I found in another sci-fi universe which would have been attainable in the MEU was the SAPL array, but even that would only be able to protect a single system, and only in as much as it could target reapers entering the system by relay. They could take their sweet time approaching from any direction (or every direction) via FTL, making them extremely difficult to detect until they were already in the system. Its biggest utility would be the speed at which it could harvest resources from asteroids, melting them down into a ball with the heaviest elements floating to the outside thanks to the original rock's own rotation, stripping off the useful metals, using the "waste" silica to make more mirrors resulting in an array capable of focusing yet more light.

Focus a couple petawatts of energy on a Reaper (bypassing its barriers), and I don't think it'd matter what it was made of. But again, the flaw is in detecting them before they can trash the array. It would slow their invasion of the system the array was built in and speed the harvesting of raw materials in that same system until its destruction. Nothing more.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Where are you getting this "The Reapers are invulnerable" from?  Seriously.

 

Once Sovereign's barriers were down, a few Javelin missiles were all it took to turn it into space calimari.  The structures themselves don't seem to be all that sturdy.

 

Of course, given the Rannoch Reaper, I suppose it's more accurate to say they're as sturdy as Mac says they are.

 

The game. The game that explicitly says that Reapers are nigh invulnerable. Looking at a handful of Reapers going up against a massed Turian fleet. And utterly whomping them to kingdom come. Looking at Sovereign, tanking an entire combined fleet of firepower, and nearly destroying said fleet single-handedly. 

 

Seriously.

 

And to me, it looked more like it still took heavy fire from an entire fleet even without its barriers. Yes, they're a large portion of the defenses behind one, but they're strong enough to be able to make aeronautical maneuvers that would rip any other ship in half. And they dwarf dreadnoughts, yet land and take off from planets with ease. They're going to be very sturdy and plum. 

[Jorji Costava]

I think the idea behind the games is to sort of showcase Shepard and the power fantasy behind him. And a conventional victory does detract from that power-fantasy behind Shepard. It's about being a special snowflake, being 'god'. 

 

The Reapers were certainly too powerful to be a force that could ever be handled beyond a superweapon as well.

 

I think this is just going to be another fundamental disagreement between our respective points of view. It's true that part of the idea of the trilogy is to showcase Shepard's specialness, but in all honesty, I think this was one of the weaker ideas of the series, and probably should have been downplayed significantly (for instance, I think it's directly implicated in the idiocy of the Lazarus Project). It was also part of the idea of the series to enable at least some Shepards to be the "ultimate hero," but we've all complained any number of times about being able to choose Paragon every time with no consequences. Maybe not all of the series' existing ideas should be preserved or emphasized.

 

EDIT: Fixed some phrasing.

[Obadiah]

Mass Effect is a story not a dissertation. If the Devs spent the time to make a story that was completely plausible by some of your standards, we'd still be left with an invulnerable enemy we couldn't defeat conventionally, with our only hope being an ancient super-weapon we discovered and have to build, with a choice at the end a bunch of you still can't deal with.

*Cough*
Also, I did like several of the changes to the story in the OP.

[dreamgazer]

It was ME3's job to justify ME2.

 

No, it wasn't. ME2 needed to justify itself. 

[Remix-General Aetius]

3 years too late, sister. ME3's no longer supported by Bioware. it's finished.

[Oni Changas]

No, it wasn't. ME2 needed to justify itself. 

It was a bridge to nowhere. Again, ME3 needed to justify ME2. There's 3 parts to a trilogy. Three dots to connect. ME3 just became a rhombus outside of the dots.

 

Me3. Needed. To. Justify. ME2. Period.

[dreamgazer]

It was a bridge to nowhere. Again, ME3 needed to justify ME2. There's 3 parts to a trilogy. Three dots to connect. ME3 just became a rhombus outside of the dots.

 

Me3. Needed. To. Justify. ME2. Period.

 

Nope. ME2 needed to justify its own immense alterations to the lore and central plot putzing-around, which it failed at spectacularly.

 

ME3's job was to try and resolve both narratives in a finale that ended the Reaper threat, which it kinda-sorta did. Flawed, absolutely, but workable.

[AlanC9]

It was a bridge to nowhere. Again, ME3 needed to justify ME2. There's 3 parts to a trilogy. Three dots to connect. ME3 just became a rhombus outside of the dots.
 
Me3. Needed. To. Justify. ME2. Period.

That business with the periods only works when you've actually made your case, you know.

[AlanC9]

Also, I did like several of the changes to the story in the OP.

I feel bad that we've done what we always do to this thread. Looks like I'm as much at fault as anyone for that.

[Hadeedak]

There's been some pretty cool ideas for alterations in a perfect world. I'll reiterate:

 

I would crank Shepard's importance down a peg. She's one of the people gathering resources for the Catalyst, not the only plan (so that when you die planet scanning because you keep forgetting to use themikefest's handy planet scanning chart, you don't feel like such a yutz). I'd slow the timeline down. ME3 should take a year, and some action should be implied to happen off camera. 

 

There should be more dialogue regarding Shepard's enhancements and some confusion as to his/her self-image, or at least options to express such. If I'm playing an awesome cyborg zombie, I want to be able to express that.

 

I'd ditch a few missions. I'd probably try to combine some -- maybe grabbing Koris is a side option that slows you down on Rannoch, like saving Kirahe on Virmire. I'd be tempted to ditch the turian bomb, though that's one of the better stories. Cut the N7 missions all together. And I'd try to use that to make a more complex Priority: Earth. Where we talk more about the Reapers and what we've learned. And see war assets. And maybe some people die on our mistakes, ect, ect.

 

I would also have the Catalyst do the Leviathan thing, swapping between people. But I'd have it go with dead squadmates, Anderson, and the kid, I guess. Keep the voice, though.

[KaiserShep]

I think the idea behind the games is to sort of showcase Shepard and the power fantasy behind him. And a conventional victory does detract from that power-fantasy behind Shepard. It's about being a special snowflake, being 'god'. 

 

The Reapers were certainly too powerful to be a force that could ever be handled beyond a superweapon as well.

 

It seems like a poor way to structure a story, when emphasis on the specialness of a character sacrifices the sensibility of the actual plot. The invulnerability of the reapers makes the secrecy of the cycles seem a bit pointless. More importantly than that, it makes Sovereign look like a stupid shnook that got itself killed for no reason.

 

I wonder if Harbinger thought the same.

 

Harbinger: Sovereign sacrificed itself, despite our ability to enter the galaxy no matter what these puny organics do.

 

Destroyer minion: It did know that we could just go ahead and fly in the old fashioned way, right?

 

Harbinger: It did.

 

Destroyer minion: What a shnook.

 

Harbinger: Indeed.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

It seems like a poor way to structure a story, when emphasis on the specialness of a character sacrifices the sensibility of the actual plot. The invulnerability of the reapers makes the secrecy of the cycles seem a bit pointless. More importantly than that, it makes Sovereign look like a stupid shnook that got itself killed for no reason.

 

I wonder if Harbinger thought the same.

 

Harbinger: Sovereign sacrificed itself, despite our ability to enter the galaxy no matter what these puny organics do.

 

Destroyer minion: It did know that we could just go ahead and fly in the old fashioned way, right?

 

Harbinger: It did.

 

Destroyer minion: What a shnook.

 

Harbinger: Indeed.

 

Very funny and all that, but I don't necessarily see it that way. Sovereign knew that the only way to make 100% sure the Reapers will win is to go through with the Citadel trap plan. The Reapers always could come to the Galaxy via FTL, but they didn't, since they knew that if they did, they would be vulnerable. Now they have no other choice and they are desperate.

 

 

No, it wasn't. ME2 needed to justify itself. 

 

ME2 justifies itself just fine.

 

If you don't think so and you wish to disown it though, then it's your prerogative to do so as the one who actually plays the game. Me, I love ME2 almost as much as I love ME1 so I'll just disown those parts of MEU which don't do it justice in my view, thank you very much.

 

 

It was ME3's job to justify ME2. ME3 fucked up by ignoring most of what came before (such as Drew K's canon novels).

 

"ME3" fu*ked up in many more ways. Also, did you like Retribution, the third novel? I found it very poor, mainly because it seems about as disconnected from the previous books as "ME3" from the previous games. Kahlee finds out about the Reapers in Ascension. In Retribution, she seems to have forgotten all about them. That and the bloody awful treatment of the Councillor choice (in Retribution it's Udina no matter what) and the matter of C-Sec Executor (I'm sticking with Chellick being promoted to Executor and Pallin dying in the Battle of the Citadel, since it seems that's what was supposed to happen in ME2 and you still get Emily Wong news segment in which she says Chellick is the Executor).

[KaiserShep]

Very funny and all that, but I don't necessarily see it that way. Sovereign knew that the only way to make 100% sure the Reapers will win is to go through with the Citadel trap plan. The Reapers always could come to the Galaxy via FTL, but they didn't, since they knew that if they did, they would be vulnerable. Now they have no other choice and they are desperate.

 

The problem with this idea is that within the framework of even ME1's ending (Shepard talking about the reapers coming....because of reasons), Sovereign's hasty intervention actually has the reverse effect. If the reapers are coming anyway, this means that Sovereign would have better served them doing only two things: discovering what the Conduit is, and bombing the entire site on Ilos until nothing is left. After which, it can simply sit idly with its geth followers in a dark corner of the galaxy and wait for the rest of the invasion force to arrive. Attacking the Citadel actually presents far greater risks than waiting for the delayed invasion fleet to make their way to the Alpha Relay, because:

 

-It instantly raises awareness in the galaxy, allowing organics to be better equipped and,

 

-It needlessly risks the information that a Capital ship is meant to preserve.

 

Now, if Sovereign actually did the sensible thing and basically kept out of sight and worked through Saren, there wouldn't be much of a story, because a couple more years would go by, and suddenly the reapers would just arrive and kill everyone. The lack of awareness of the reapers' presence would also ensure that no one would even bother to look deeper into the prothean archives to find the Crucible plans. The next cycle might have done something, but they don't matter to dead people.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

The problem with this idea is that within the framework of even ME1's ending (Shepard talking about the reapers coming....because of reasons), Sovereign's hasty intervention actually has the reverse effect. If the reapers are coming anyway, this means that Sovereign would have better served them doing only two things: discovering what the Conduit is, and bombing the entire site on Ilos until nothing is left. After which, it can simply sit idly with its geth followers in a dark corner of the galaxy and wait for the rest of the invasion force to arrive. Attacking the Citadel actually presents far greater risks than waiting for the delayed invasion fleet to make their way to the Alpha Relay, because:

 

-It instantly raises awareness in the galaxy, allowing organics to be better equipped and,

 

-It needlessly risks the information that a Capital ship is meant to preserve.

 

Now, if Sovereign actually did the sensible thing and basically kept out of sight and worked through Saren, there wouldn't be much of a story, because a couple more years would go by, and suddenly the reapers would just arrive and kill everyone. The lack of awareness of the reapers' presence would also ensure that no one would even bother to look deeper into the prothean archives to find the Crucible plans. The next cycle might have done something, but they don't matter to dead people.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. What I mean is the following situation:

 

1. Reapers make Citadel/Relay network trap and use it consistently to win in all previous cycles

2. ME1 happens, the Citadel/Relay network trap is rendered useless

3. Points 1 and 2 mean that the Reapers' prime advantage is now gone

4. The Reapers have no choice but to come to the galaxy and try to take it head on because of their inability to survive more than around 50 000 years without harvesting another race due to dwindling energy reserves or some similar reason (basically, they are not eternal and unbeatable as they claim)

5. Crucible is not a thing, because "ME3" didn't happen.

[KaiserShep]

Regarding point 3, the reapers' primary advantage is the element of surprise. With the existence of the Alpha Relay, that advantage would still be theirs, had Sovereign not screwed it all up.

 

Regarding point 4, I don't believe there's anything to really support the idea that the reapers are somehow exhausting their energy reserves.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Regarding point 4, I don't believe there's anything to really support the idea that the reapers are somehow exhausting their energy reserves.

 

It is an assumption, granted, but it comes from the fact that the Reapers come via FTL, which I see as a desperate move on their part. They spend 50 000 years dormant and then they need to harvest organics in order to ensure they (the Reapers) continue to exist.

 

They are as evil as anything can get basically, by which I mean that they have gotten so incredibly big and old that their prime goal is ensuring they continue to exist. And that's it.

 

Reapers are EA, basically

[themikefest]

 

Very funny and all that, but I don't necessarily see it that way. Sovereign knew that the only way to make 100% sure the Reapers will win is to go through with the Citadel trap plan. The Reapers always could come to the Galaxy via FTL, but they didn't, since they knew that if they did, they would be vulnerable. Now they have no other choice and they are desperate.

 

 

I wonder if they weren't able to get through to the Citadel to start the harvest, why not on the relay in dark space flip the switch, if it had one, so that they can exit through another relay in a different system?

[Eryri]

The problem with this idea is that within the framework of even ME1's ending (Shepard talking about the reapers coming....because of reasons), Sovereign's hasty intervention actually has the reverse effect. If the reapers are coming anyway, this means that Sovereign would have better served them doing only two things: discovering what the Conduit is, and bombing the entire site on Ilos until nothing is left. After which, it can simply sit idly with its geth followers in a dark corner of the galaxy and wait for the rest of the invasion force to arrive. Attacking the Citadel actually presents far greater risks than waiting for the delayed invasion fleet to make their way to the Alpha Relay, because:

-It instantly raises awareness in the galaxy, allowing organics to be better equipped and,

-It needlessly risks the information that a Capital ship is meant to preserve.

Now, if Sovereign actually did the sensible thing and basically kept out of sight and worked through Saren, there wouldn't be much of a story, because a couple more years would go by, and suddenly the reapers would just arrive and kill everyone. The lack of awareness of the reapers' presence would also ensure that no one would even bother to look deeper into the prothean archives to find the Crucible plans. The next cycle might have done something, but they don't matter to dead people.

I think I agree with both of you (KaiserShep and Staff Lt Alenko). Sovereign's actions in ME1 do indeed look very silly in light of the speed with which his buddies got in from Darkspace. One could argue that the way the Reapers were set up as being so OP back in ME1, stored up trouble that came back to bite the series in the ass in later instalments.

However, these problems would not have been insurmountable had ME3 been more sensibly written. It's really ME3's fault for failing to patch these potential holes before the whole fabric of the plot unravelled. ME3 could still have been successful if either the Reaper invasion was smaller, or it took place many years after ME2.

If the reapers took 50 to 100 years to travel back from DS, then that might justify Sovereign's panic. An extra 100 years of technological progress might have made the council species more difficult to defeat, particularly the Asari and Geth. The reapers might also be depleted from such a long, arduous journey.

Secondly it would provide an actual reason for Project Lazarus to have happened if it turned Shepard into an ageless cyborg who might still be fighting fit at 130.

Thirdly it would provide a convenient way to sideline the "Shroedinger's characters" from ME2, who might have died of old age or retired after surviving the suicide mission. Romances could have been similarly reset as people might have naturally drifted apart. Alternatively, the technology that resurrected Shepard might be commonplace 100 years later, giving humans the lifespans of Asari, so fan favourites like Joker might still be around if necessary for the plot.

Fourthly, it would provide enough time for the council to adequately prepare enough ships to actually stand a fighting chance. Without resorting to giant, magic-spouting contrivances.

[Eryri]

 
Reapers are EA, basically

Well you can't spell Reapers without EA. ;-)

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

 

 

I wonder if they weren't able to get through to the Citadel to start the harvest, why not on the relay in dark space flip the switch, if it had one, so that they can exit through another relay in a different system?

 

 

No sure what you mean, but if you're wondering why the Reapers didn't have a way to activate a relay into the galaxy on their end in dark space, then my explanation would be that something has gone badly wrong for them in the past, possibly even at the time the Citadel and relays were being built, and not everything went according to plan for them. It could be another piece of information which the protagonists can find out about and exploit.

 

 

(...)

However, these problems would not have been insurmountable had ME3 been more sensibly written.

 

Precisely.