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[dreamgazer]

I view the second act much more liberally than I do the third act. The First act sets up the story, the setting, the universe, etc. The second establishes a direction. The third is to run in that direction and take that direction to the climax. Personally, I think ME3 didn't do that. I think ME2 was left on the vine when it comes to that. 

 

That's fine, but ME2 didn't just establish a direction.  It completely rebooted the universe, leaving many elements of ME1 in the lurch. 

 

ME3 tried to bring the two together, which it admirably did, though obviously not without faults. 

[DeinonSlayer]

@Massively
Is that Citadel DLC? I'd be curious where you can say that, it's been a while since I've played it.

I'll agree with you for the renegade interrupt on Rannoch, though. There are times it's certainly appropriate.

[Iakus]

I think ME3 gets unfairly chided for its stumbles when ME2 does just as much and somehow gets away with it. And ME1 has its share of idiosyncrasies, too. 

 

I enjoy all three games, and I find the whole "false ME3" to be a ridiculous sentiment when you look at the content comprising the previous two games. 

 

ME2 "gets away with it" because there was still an ME3.  There was still a shot that things could somehow still course-correct.

 

ME3, however, was the end of the story.  We're now stuck with this nonsense with no hope that things will be fixed, short of modding.

 

And this is coming from from someone who thinks ME2 is largely nonsense

[dreamgazer]

ME2 "gets away with it" because there was still an ME3.  There was still a shot that things could somehow still course-correct.

 

ME3, however, was the end of the story.  We're now stuck with this nonsense with no hope that things will be fixed, short of modding.

 

Not at all fair to expect a third story to clean up the messes left by the first two entries. 

 

That said, ME3's course-correction goes underrated, aside from certain elements of the ending. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

That's fine, but ME2 didn't just establish a direction.  It completely rebooted the universe, leaving many elements of ME1 in the lurch. 

 

ME3 tried to bring the two together, which it admirably did, though obviously not without faults. 

 

I disagree completely. ME2 did not reboot the entire universe. As I said, it explained many of the things from ME1 that got scrubbed in ME2. It could have done a better job explaining what happened, but overall, I think it did a fine job as it is. 

 

ME3 took a different direction from where ME2 had gone from and elements of ME2 were redirected into ME3. I don't think there was a 'reboot' of any kind. 

[Iakus]

Not at all fair to expect a third story to clean up the messes left by the first two entries. 

 

Which is why I really don't envy the MENext team

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Not at all fair to expect a third story to clean up the messes left by the first two entries. 

 

That said, ME3's course-correction goes underrated, aside from certain elements of the ending. 

 

I think we're going to have a problem with how we view this: I don't view ME3's job to clean up the 'messes' of ME1 or ME2. I don't believe there were any 'messes' to clean up lore-wise. Narratively, there were hiccups, namely the SM mechanic being by far the most prominent in my opinion. That said, as I said, I'm a lot more lenient with 'messes' in ME1 and ME2 because of their nature as building the universe and characterizing its direction respectively than I am for the the game that has to bring it all together in the end. 

 

I believe you overrate ME3. You probably believe I underrate it.

 

*edit* to clarify it a bit, I don't believe what you define as messes in ME1 and ME2 are messes. That should be a bit better.

[dreamgazer]

Which is why I really don't envy the MENext team

 

They'll be just fine, evidenced by the interest I've seen building for the next game.  

 

It won't be easy for them, but it wouldn't be easy even under ideal circumstances.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@Massively
Is that Citadel DLC? I'd be curious where you can say that, it's been a while since I've played it.

I'll agree with you for the renegade interrupt on Rannoch, though. There are times it's certainly appropriate.

 

What line? The thing I said? That's all me personally.

 

For me, it was a case of who the Reapers feared. They aren't afraid of the big ass fleet coming their way. They're afraid of the man leading it.

[dreamgazer]

I think we're going to have a problem with how we view this: I don't view ME3's job to clean up the 'messes' of ME1 or ME2. I don't believe there were any 'messes' to clean up lore-wise. Narratively, there were hiccups, namely the SM mechanic being by far the most prominent in my opinion. That said, as I said, I'm a lot more lenient with 'messes' in ME1 and ME2 because of their nature as building the universe and characterizing its direction respectively than I am for the the game that has to bring it all together in the end. 

 

I believe you overrate ME3. You probably believe I underrate it.

 

There were, indeed, narrative messes to clean up and resolve.  But that's my viewpoint, and I've stated why I feel this way in previous posts.

 

And of course I agree with the second sentence: ME3 is underrated on this board in general, while ME2 goes way overrated and its crippling issues overlooked.

[Ryriena]

I actually chalked it up to the organic essence as in their DNA. They processed them for their blood. I mean it makes more sense than the organic essence that Casey came up with in the long run. The reason they wanted Shepard is because his DNA had evolved enough to help this process run smoothly in too the next cycle.
This makes more sense than, what Casey and Mac came up with in the ending. They harvest us to make this process safer with the use of Dark engery to help run their core.

This leads to the ending where we defeat them and have that ending we wanted to happen.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

There were, indeed, narrative messes to clean up and resolve.  But that's my viewpoint, and I've stated why I feel this way in previous posts.

 

And of course I agree with the second sentence: ME3 is underrated on this board in general, while ME2 goes way overrated and its crippling issues overlooked.

 

As how I've stated why I feel differently for the most part in my clarification. I believe that topic for us now is concluded since we're not going to agree on it.

 

Ditto with the second: I feel ME3 is quite deserving of it's reputation, as is ME2 deserving of its own reputation.

[dreamgazer]

This makes more sense than, what Casey and Mac came up with in the ending. They harvest us to make this process safer with the use of Dark engery to help run their core. However, this process endangers the stars by aging them too quickly, which can cause whole suns to go supernova.

 

This really doesn't make any more sense than what was ultimately presented in ME3, and it would've led to an even more heavy-handed decision in the end involving the sacrifice of humanity or the potential extinction of all life.  Not to mention that it's just another form of space magic. 

 

 

As how I've stated why I feel differently for the most part in my clarification. I believe that topic for us now is concluded since we're not going to agree on it.

 

Ditto with the second: I feel ME3 is quite deserving of it's reputation, as is ME2 deserving of its own reputation.

 

I'd read through previous threads on the BSN---before ME3's release---before coming to a concrete frame of mind about ME2's "reputation".  It has plenty of detractors from BW loyalists.

 

Also, ME3's general reputation outside the BSN is "great game, disappointing ending". 

 

They both have their hardcore, nit-picky detractors, though.  That's their reputation, and the reputation of BioWare's fans. 

[Iakus]

 

Also, ME3's general reputation outside the BSN is "great game, disappointing ending". 

 

 

And over 70 Game of the Year awards!

[dreamgazer]

And over 70 Game of the Year awards!

 

(shrug)

 

ME2's got its share of awards, too. Not entirely sure what your point is, though.

 

ME3's ending wasn't even the worst to come out in 2012 (looking at you, AC3), and disappointing endings are in no short supply in the video-game industry. 

[KaiserShep]

The reapers themselves are the trilogy's biggest problem. The reason for the reapers' existence was doomed to be underwhelming, but the whole must-lift-curtain thing is too powerful to ignore. Personally, I found their motivation to be at the bottom of the list of interesting things in the story. In the end, the reapers felt like some kind of binding agent to get all of these species rallied together, and understanding what they were about was as important as knowing the lyrics to a Justin Bieber song.

[Iakus]

(shrug)

 

ME2's got its share of awards, too. Not entirely sure what your point is, though.

 

ME3's ending wasn't even the worst to come out in 2012 (looking at you, AC3), and disappointing endings are in no short supply in the video-game industry. 

 

The point is you can spin anything.

 

As for poor endings, ME3 has the distinction of telling us we're building our own through our choices

 

No one I know plays an Assassin's Creed game expecting agency.

[dreamgazer]

The point is you can spin anything.

 

As for poor endings, ME3 has the distinction of telling us we're building our own through our choices

 

No one I know plays an Assassin's Creed game expecting agency.

 

Of course you can spin anything.  You can turn any piece of fiction into garbage if you dissect it, too. Citizen Kane and Casablanca, considered to be two of the greatest movies ever made, have significant plot holes, as does Star Wars.

 

You did have agency.  It was limited by BioWare's storytelling though, which can be said for the entire trilogy, from the second Shepard becomes a Spectre. 

[Deathsaurer]

The reapers themselves are the trilogy's biggest problem. The reason for the reapers' existence was doomed to be underwhelming, but the whole must-lift-curtain thing is too powerful to ignore. Personally, I found their motivation to be at the bottom of the list of interesting things in the story. In the end, the reapers felt like some kind of binding agent to get all of these species rallied together, and understanding what they were about was as important as knowing the lyrics to a Justin Bieber song.

And I think this is a result of making them what they are. Because dear god how are you supposed to fight a dreadnought with an assault rifle? This ends up making the conflict feel incredibly impersonal and boring. You only ever directly fight 2 Reapers and those are probably the 2 worst boss fights in the series.

[GreyLycanTrope]

That's fine, but ME2 didn't just establish a direction.  It completely rebooted the universe, leaving many elements of ME1 in the lurch. 

Spectre weapons. Never forget!

[Steelcan]

Also, ME3's general reputation outside the BSN is "great game, disappointing ending".

This is what I find most problematic.

 

The endings drew the most attention so other glaring issues, not even lore nitpicks, were left uncritiqued

[Farangbaa]

You did have agency.  It was limited by BioWare's storytelling though, which can be said for the entire trilogy, from the second Shepard becomes a Spectre. 

 

Such cruel people at Bioware, forcing you to dance at the hands of aliens by making you a Spectre against your will.

[dreamgazer]

This is what I find most problematic.

 

The endings drew the most attention so other glaring issues, not even lore nitpicks, were left uncritiqued

 

And since ME2 had the SM and turned into even more of an exciting corridor shooter with a part-cyborg hero, its lore issues went uncritiqued as well.

 

C'est la vie. Even The Empire Strikes Back has plot issues.

[dreamgazer]

Such cruel people at Bioware, forcing you to dance at the hands of aliens by making you a Spectre against your will.

 

The "railroading" actually starts, in a minor way, from the character creation screen: every single Alliance-employed PC in this series has the last name of "Shepard" and is voiced by either Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale.  This is a somewhat specific character, making "your Shepard" a relative thing.

 

Agency has been constrained from the very beginning. 

[Farangbaa]

The "railroading" actually starts, in a minor way, from the character creation screen: every single Alliance-employed PC in this series has the last name of "Shepard" and is voiced by either Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale.  This is a somewhat specific character, making "your Shepard" a relative thing.

 

Agency has been constrained from the very beginning. 

 

You don't have to tell me