702 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This kind of thing happens with many third installments in a trilogy, and it's not simply because one is better written than the other.  ME2 has a wealth of the same issues as ME3, on top of a plot that goes absolutely nowhere and almost entirely avoids the Reapers.  It's a shoddy sequel, despite being an exciting story on its own. 

 

And again, yes, ME2 rearranged just about everything in the universe into something it wasn't at the end of ME1, from Cerberus and the geth to the Council, the primary characters, and Shepard him/herself.  That's not expansion or development.  It's outright restarting, two years later.

 

Oh boy... trying not to jump in here and start the can of worms again.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

People probably should have seen the silliness of the Lazarus Project coming after the silliness of the Prothean cipher and the Thorian.

 

I'll confess: I don't find any of them silly.

[dreamgazer]

Oh boy... trying not to jump in here and start the can of worms again.

 

We don't agree. (shrug) 

 

It's true, though: MEU --> Two Years --> MEU v2.0  

 

That isn't development.

 

 

I'll confess: I don't find any of them silly.

 

That's your prerogative. I find them neat myself, but they are, indeed, utter bullshit. 

[Iakus]

Let me amend my opinion a bit. As a video game boss fight the Rannoch destroyer is fine. As a part of an actual story it's ridiculous. Meanwhile the Human Reaper was just ridiculous.

 

That I can agree to.

[Farangbaa]

As if fighting space Cthulhu in itself isn't silly enough. You're going to have to accept some degree of bullshit when you're playing a fantasy space power trip.

 

And don't get started on suspension of disbelief. It's what you're willing to accept, not what you're stupid enough to believe. You're always going to find flaws, and things that don't make sense if you just think about it hard enough.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

We don't agree. (shrug) 

 

It's true, though: MEU --> Two Years --> MEU v2.0  

 

That isn't development.

 

 

 

That's your prerogative. I find them neat myself, but they are, indeed, utter bullshit. 

 

I disagree completely. It's not true. I see the same universe I always saw in ME1. Some things are different. All I'm doing is seeing things I never saw before. I'm developing a new perspective of the same universe based on new developments within the same universe. Seems like a lot of development to me.

 

And I disagree. And you know me; I call people out for stating opinions as objective.

[Deathsaurer]

As if fighting space Cthulhu in itself isn't silly enough. You're going to have to accept some degree of bullshit when you're playing a fantasy space power trip.

 

 

Well yeah, that's why I don't get mad about any of it. It's the video game part intruding on the story part and it's going to happen with sometimes crazy results. I accepted that when I played the game.

[Iakus]

People probably should have seen the silliness of stuff like the Lazarus Project coming after the silliness of the Prothean cipher and the Thorian.

 

To be fair,  the thorian is supposed to be this unique, bizzarre, not really understood phenomenon (thus why Exo Geni was studying it). 

 

The Lazaus Project was human tech which we had no clue was even plausible in this universe.  Yet was waved away as being simply a matter of resources.

 

What did they do, inject Shepard with money until he woke up?

[Iakus]

As if fighting space Cthulhu in itself isn't silly enough. You're going to have to accept some degree of bullshit when you're playing a fantasy space power trip.

 

And don't get started on suspension of disbelief. It's what you're willing to accept, not what you're stupid enough to believe. You're always going to find flaws, and things that don't make sense if you just think about it hard enough.

 

It's not expecting too much for a story to maintain internal consistency.  The more consistent the story is, the more likely people will be able to suspend thier disbelief when it becomes inconsistent.

[dreamgazer]

I disagree completely. It's not true. I see the same universe I always saw in ME1. Some things are different. All I'm doing is seeing things I never saw before. I'm developing a new perspective of the same universe based on new developments within the same universe.

 

And I disagree. And you know me; I call people out for stating opinions as objective.

 

It's absolutely true.  Things happen off-screen and things were changed to embellish the story.  The geth were, quite simply, rewritten.  Cerberus received a massive buff.  The VS turned disloyal because of the contrived death and resurrection. Other characters you don't like changed dramatically. "Ah yes, Reapers". And many other things.  Those aren't new perspectives!

 

It's not expecting too much for a story to maintain internal consistency.  The more consistent the story is, the more likely people will be able to suspend thier disbelief when it becomes inconsistent.

 

Again, ME1 wasn't even consistent within itself, notably involving the prototype relay. 

 

To be fair,  the thorian is supposed to be this unique, bizzarre, not really understood phenomenon (thus why Exo Geni was studying it). 

 

The Lazaus Project was human tech which we had no clue was even plausible in this universe.  Yet was waved away as being simply a matter of resources.

 

What did they do, inject Shepard with money until he woke up?

 

And Cerberus explored the unique, bizarre, not-really-understood phenomenon of reviving the human brain. 

 

You're hand-waving the unknown and space magic, by the way. 

[Farangbaa]

It's not expecting too much for a story to maintain internal consistency.  The more consistent the story is, the more likely people will be able to suspend thier disbelief when it becomes inconsistent.

 

There's not that much internal consistency in the Bible, yet people kill for it. It's what you're willing to accept.

[Iakus]

 

Again, ME1 wasn't even consistent within itself, notably involving the prototype relay. 

 

Did you ever answer my question of how the Conduit is any different than a primary relay?

 

Or did I miss the response?

 

 

And Cerberus explored the unique, bizarre, not-really-understood phenomenon of reviving the human brain.

 

You're hand-waving the unknown and space magic, by the way.

 

I had hoped that the nature of the Cipher would be further explored in teh trilogy, and we'd learn more about what it is and how it could effect Shepard.  Heck that could have been a plausible reason for Cerberus to bring Shepard back.  That's something that makes Shepard unique, Not those "you're a symbol" platitutes TIM blathered on about.

 

So yes, not going further into the Cipher was a wasted opportunity, if that's what you want to hear.

 

But the Lazarus Project, that was complete handwaving.  They didn't just study it, they did it.  And never explained how they got a dead guy to walk around again.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It's absolutely true.  Things happen off-screen and things were changed to embellish the story.  The geth were, quite simply, rewritten.  Cerberus received a massive buff.  The VS turned disloyal because of the contrived death and resurrection. Other characters you don't like changed dramatically. "Ah yes, Reapers". And many other things.  Those aren't new perspectives!

 

It is not true.

 

It is a new perspective for the player. And that's exactly what a new perspective is. And it's development of previously established elements in the universe up to that point. I will argue that the Geth were not rewritten, but developed to add more complexities to them. There wasn't enough definition to them in ME1 to say that ME2 was a rewrite. So I challenge you on that.

 

I challenge on how you say Cerberus buffed. You seem to imply that they've been rewritten, when I say that once again, they weren't defined well enough to call them rewritten, namely because you have very little insight into them and no perspective from anyone within their organization. There certainly wasn't anything that was inconsistent with what was already in existence. And I will say the same with the Geth. Was there anything in ME1 that prevented the existence of a larger, more mainstream faction of the Geth? Or Cerberus? Not that I saw. The VS turned disloyal because they had gone through an understandable trauma and were now faced with the existence of their former lover/friend who was alive, and who had been alive under their nose, and were working for an organization that they were categorically opposed too. They were being emotional and irrational. It's certainly in-character for Ashley to react so negatively, and Kaidan does have more turbulence to him than he lets on, mainly because of his harsh upbringing. I certainly don't see why the Councilors are OOC or changed from supporting Shepard at the end of ME1 to denying the Reapers existence in ME2 and decrying Shepard as a traitor. Without Shepard to push it, it's not hard to see why they'd drop the Reaper ideal once they realized they had to deal with an unpleasant truth. 

 

I'm sorry, but I think you're full of it here. And it is just my opinion, but there you go. I deny the truth to your statement.

[dreamgazer]

Did you ever answer my question of how the Conduit is any different than a primary relay?

 

Or did I miss the response?

 

Probably missed the response: Ilos orbits while the Conduit is static, Mako couldn't transmit weight and size info, Mako makes it through the Citadel's infrastructure, Mako's velocity was just enough to land it somewhat safely on its side. Let alone the fact that it's magically still active just until Shepard and crew drive (lol!) through it.

 

 

I had hoped that the nature of the Cipher would be further explored in teh trilogy, and we'd learn more about what it is and how it could effect Shepard.  Heck that could have been a plausible reason for Cerberus to bring Shepard back.  That's something that makes Shepard unique, Not those "you're a symbol" platitutes TIM blathered on about.

 

So yes, not going further into the Cipher was a wasted opportunity, if that's what you want to hear.

 

But the Lazarus Project, that was complete handwaving.  They didn't just study it, they did it.  And never explained how they got a dead guy to walk around again.

 

I don't really want to hear anything. But the way the Cipher is presented, it's nothing but plot-sensitive space magic. 

 

And Cerberus did, actually, research the extent of the Lazarus Project, but they never reveal the details of their findings. Because it's not really possible now, kinda like a telepathic plant and Shepard's brain being given the collective unconscious of the Protheans through a two-step mental process. 

 

It is not true.

 

It is a new perspective for the player. And that's exactly what a new perspective is. And it's development of previously established elements in the universe up to that point. I will argue that the Geth were not rewritten, but developed to add more complexities to them. There wasn't enough definition to them in ME1 to say that ME2 was a rewrite. So I challenge you on that.

 

I challenge on how you say Cerberus buffed. You seem to imply that they've been rewritten, when I say that once again, they weren't defined well enough to call them rewritten, namely because you have very little insight into them and no perspective from anyone within their organization. There certainly wasn't anything that was inconsistent with what was already in existence. And I will say the same with the Geth. Was there anything in ME1 that prevented the existence of a larger, more mainstream faction of the Geth? Or Cerberus? Not that I saw. The VS turned disloyal because they had gone through an understandable trauma and were now faced with the existence of their former lover/friend who was alive, and who had been alive under their nose, and were working for an organization that they were categorically opposed too. They were being emotional and irrational. It's certainly in-character for Ashley to react so negatively, and Kaidan does have more turbulence to him than he lets on, mainly because of his harsh upbringing. I certainly don't see why the Councilors are OOC or changed from supporting Shepard at the end of ME1 to denying the Reapers existence in ME2 and decrying Shepard as a traitor. Without Shepard to push it, it's not hard to see why they'd drop the Reaper ideal once they realized they had to deal with an unpleasant truth. 

 

I'm sorry, but I think you're full of it here. And it is just my opinion, but there you go. I deny the truth to your statement.

 

You "challenge" me? (laughs) Ease up there, soldier.  

 

You can think I'm full of it all you want, but most of that---especially involving the characters---hinges on Shepard's contrived death and resurrection after a two-year jump, thus forcefully altering the perspective. That isn't development; that's brute-force changing. There's no evidence that the geth DID have a larger, peaceful network, especially based on the information Tali presents about their history and their turbulent air space. And there's no evidence that Cerberus, a minuscule operation in ME1 built up from a black ops group, has a fraction of the resources that they exhibit in ME2.  If there was, we'd see a lot more of their involvement, given how renowned they are among the quarians, with Jack, and others. That's a massive step up in exposure, and only a rinky-dink side mission in ME1 to show for it.  They wear their logos on their ships and clothing, after all!

[Mathias]

Why are people having trouble buying the Lazurus Project? It's a Sci-Fi universe way off into the future, where our technology has advanced immensely, and that we're also part of a galactic community that has shared their technology with us as well. Is it THAT hard to believe that in this advanced universe, that over the course of a year and billions of credits spent, they were able to bring someone back to life? Throughout the course of ME2 and ME3 it was explained and referenced a few times that they had the funds, technology, time, and top minds to accomplish this task.

 

If you have trouble believing in that, then quit the Sci-Fi genre ENTIRELY.

[dreamgazer]

Why are people having trouble buying the Lazurus Project? It's a Sci-Fi universe way off into the future, where our technology has advanced immensely, and that we're also part of a galactic community that has shared their technology with us as well. Is it THAT hard to believe that in this advanced universe, that over the course of a year and billions of credits spent, they were able to bring someone back to life? Throughout the course of ME2 and ME3 it was explained and referenced a few times that they had the funds, technology, time, and top minds to accomplish this task.

 

If you have trouble believing in that, then quit the Sci-Fi genre ENTIRELY.

 

Do you have problems with the Crucible?  Because, y'know, sci-fi ...

 

If a story is going to go directly against what we know about modern physiology, which is what Lazarus does in terms of brain function, it should probably convey how it's happening.  I don't disagree with your outlook on it, really, and I actually dig the whimsy of what Lazarus accomplishes, but it's handled in an extremely haphazard and negligent way. 

[Fixers0]

Why are people having trouble buying the Lazurus Project? It's a Sci-Fi universe way off into the future, where our technology has advanced immensely, and that we're also part of a galactic community that has shared their technology with us as well. Is it THAT hard to believe that in this advanced universe, that over the course of a year and billions of credits spent, they were able to bring someone back to life? Throughout the course of ME2 and ME3 it was explained and referenced a few times that they had the funds, technology, time, and top minds to accomplish this task.

 

If you have trouble believing in that, then quit the Sci-Fi genre ENTIRELY.

 

Genre is not an argument.

[Mathias]

Genre is not an argument.

Excuse me says who? 
 

 

Do you have problems with the Crucible?  Because, y'know, sci-fi ...

 

If a story is going to go directly against what we know about modern physiology, which is what Lazarus does in terms of brain function, it should probably convey how it's happening.  I don't disagree with your outlook on it, really, and I actually dig the whimsy of what Lazarus accomplishes, but it's handled in an extremely haphazard and negligent way. 

 

I actually don't have a problem with the Crucible. At all in fact. The execution could've been a lot better, but the idea itself was sound.

 

Would a codex entry explaining in-depth detail on how the Lazurus project works and the science behind it make you feel better? 

[dreamgazer]

Would a codex entry explaining in-depth detail on how the Lazurus project works and the science behind it make you feel better? 

 

Probably, after at least a line or two of discussion with Miranda about the basic logistics, and if Shepard had at least a few more moments of reflection on his mortality and that his brain was jump-started. Sometimes the writing just needs to address things. It's Mass Effect: we're already acclimated to bullcrap. Dream something up and have technobabble fun with it.

[KaiserShep]

The problem with Project Lazarus is that it comes off as more of a quick and easy (cheap) way to force Shepard's realignment than to serve as a greater part of the narrative. It'd be no different from slipping into a coma and being patched up over the same course of time. Curiously even the followup dialogue is inconsistent about this (I almost died, you survived your ship blowing up, etc.) With the Council's sudden 180 on the reapers, it's not like Shepard would have a choice anyway.

[Mathias]

Probably, after at least a line or two of discussion with Miranda about the basic logistics, and if Shepard had at least a few more moments of reflection on his mortality and that his brain was jump-started. Sometimes the writing just needs to address things. It's Mass Effect: we're already acclimated to bullcrap. Dream something up and have technobabble fun with it.

 

The probably could've done that, but there were other things to prioritize on. The entire first mission talks a lot about the Lazurus Project, there's plenty of dialogue on it. Not to mention it continued to get referenced over the course of the game and ME3. I can't think for everyone, but I'm pretty sure most people didn't care to get bored with the exact details on how it happened.

[Mathias]

The problem with Project Lazarus is that it comes off as more of a quick and easy (cheap) way to force Shepard's realignment than to serve as a greater part of the narrative. It'd be no different from slipping into a coma and being patched up over the same course of time. With the Council's sudden 180 on the reapers, it's not like Shepard would have a choice anyway.

 

The only problem I had with Shepard's death is that it was spoiled in the trailers. Had they not told us that Shepard dies in the first scene in the game, it would've been more effective. If I were in charge of things I would keep the Lazurus Project plot in the game and have Shepard get killed off at the beginning of the game. You then spend the first 3-5 hours of the game as one of the Squadmates (either new or old), where you investigate Cereberus, and find out about the Lazurus Project. You then find Shepard's body, wake him up, and then you regain control of him.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The probably could've done that, but there were other things to prioritize on. The entire first mission talks a lot about the Lazurus Project, there's plenty of dialogue on it. Not to mention it continued to get referenced over the course of the game and ME3. I can't think for everyone, but I'm pretty sure most people didn't care to get bored with the exact details on how it happened.

 

Not so much the technical details but more along the lines of how it personally effected Shepard. He is unique as the only person in the entire history of Citadel space to be brought back to life and no one, least of all Shepard, is the least bit curious about it (what was it like to be dead?); stranger yet, most of the characters seemed completely unphased by the miracle of science and technology that is the ME2 Shepard.

 

I have no idea how people would react to some one coming back from the dead but I think they would be a lot more freaked then any one in ME2 is. The idea that the game world reacts so oddly to Shepard's death makes it feel like a cheaply done plot device so there could be a time skip.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You "challenge" me? (laughs) Ease up there, soldier.  

 

You can think I'm full of it all you want, but most of that---especially involving the characters---hinges on Shepard's contrived death and resurrection after a two-year jump, thus forcefully altering the perspective. That isn't development; that's brute-force changing. There's no evidence that the geth DID have a larger, peaceful network, especially based on the information Tali presents about their history and their turbulent air space. And there's no evidence that Cerberus, a minuscule operation in ME1 built up from a black ops group, has a fraction of the resources that they exhibit in ME2.  If there was, we'd see a lot more of their involvement, given how renowned they are among the quarians, with Jack, and others. That's a massive step up in exposure, and only a rinky-dink side mission in ME1 to show for it.  They wear their logos on their ships and clothing, after all!

 

Seriously? You're going to be a smug jerkass? Disappointed Dream, you're better than that. I was trying to be respectful towards you, because I felt you deserved it and earned it. But if we're dropping those pretenses now...

 

I disagree on the manner of brute-force change that you're implying it is. I think it's an acceptable form of development. Not original, but not unwelcome either. On to the Geth, there's nothing that prohibits them from being more complex than what we're shown. Nearly all the insight and information we have on them is from external historical sources and our observations of what they're doing with Sovereign (which still doesn't preclude a schism within their environment in the Consensus). You get what Tali says about their history and that's it. You're getting one side of an issue and saying that it's a big change to say that there's another side as well. I think that's disingenuous. I disagree about Cerberus as well: You're listing a group that is existing on the fringe of the alliance and saying that because they aren't displaying a grandiose presence upon the galaxy, they can't possibly have the kind of impact an organization that is making multi-billion credits annually would have. The other people are fringers like Cerberus. The Quarians are a very insular people who don't deal a whole lot with others, and Jack's an outlaw existing outside the system. Then you find out the cells you blew up in ME1 were part of a larger organization that operates under the radar, in the shadows. There's nothing that'd I'd find inconsistent about that. As for their logo, I'd wager that it's not really all that important; would you be able to tell me what the logo of Thye Muasi is? They're an up and coming terror network operating out of Southeast Asia, and they have some pretty extreme anti-western leanings. We don't even know what their logo is, or much about them at all beyond some second-hand reports that we got from the Thai and Indonesian governments. They operate under the radar pretty well, yet they're growing to be a pretty big name in Thailand and Indonesia. I'd wager it's the same for Cerberus. Why do they fly around with logos on their ships? People don't know what the hell it means. That's my estimate.

[Mathias]

Not so much the technical details but more along the lines of how it personally effected Shepard. He is unique as the only person in the entire history of Citadel space to be brought back to life and no one, least of all Shepard, is the least bit curious about it (what was it like to be dead?); stranger yet, most of the characters seemed completely unphased by the miracle of science and technology that is the ME2 Shepard.

 

I have no idea how people would react to some one coming back from the dead but I think they would be a lot more freaked then any one in ME2 is. The idea that the game world reacts so oddly to Shepard's death makes it feel like a cheaply done plot device so there could be a time skip.

 

I will completely agree with that. Then again in ME3 we've seen what happens when Bioware writers take Shep's personality from our control and try to do their own mental distress thing with him.