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[dreamgazer]

But if a game fails so completely, that it actually abandons its central conflict, abandons character focus, loses narrative coherence beyond any cocievable repair and finally, abandons its very genre, then suspension of disbelief is broken, the writer-player contract is breached, willing participation of the audience is lost and it's the case of "goodbye, Mr Mac"*. I don't believe anything you say anymore. You just don't have the credibility.

 

Then I have no idea how you revere ME2, since it abandoned the series' central conflict quite literally, changed most of the characters in a two-year jump to alter the focus, lost more narrative coherence than ME3 did in relation to ME2 due to all its alterations, and moved closer to space-fantasy shooter in the first half hour of the game with the nonsense of Lazarus.

[dreamgazer]

The phrase "big enough gun" implies that the gun you have, is in fact, the correct size to win. Phrasing. 

 

Seems like the running assumption is that the thanix cannon would be "big enough".

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

And where, exactly, did I say any remotely close to dark = profound?

 

All you need to do is pay attention to the story to realize that you're severely undervaluing their prowess.

 

Sounds to me like you've been indoctrinated by faux-military gravitas, thinking you're invincible and can take down anything with a big enough gun and strategy. THAT is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, the faux gravitas of how epic stories work and have worked since the Odyssey.

 

All hail the Reapers! They are too powerful! We cannot defeat them! Waaaah!

 

Been hearing any buzzing or ringing in your ears lately, have you? Any ghostly presences hallucinations, perhaps? Have you checked your eyes for mysterious dots lately?

[dreamgazer]

Yeah, the faux gravitas of how epic stories work and have worked since the Odyssey.

 

All hail the Reapers! They are too powerful! We cannot defeat them! Waaaah!

 

Been hearing any buzzing or ringing in your ears lately, have you? Any ghostly presences hallucinations, perhaps? Have you checked your eyes for mysterious dots lately?

 

Resorting to that, now? Pretty childish, Alenko.

 

I'll repeat, once again: Being a realist about your limitations, appreciating the prowess of your enemy, and adjusting to the scope/scale of your threat doesn't make you a defeatist.

[jtav]

Except, well, we did win. The Reapers were never going to be defeated by simply whacking them really hard. But any ending that gives the achievement ends with the Crucible either killing or reprogramming every Reaper in the galaxy. Mission accomplished. The EC removes the suggestion of civilizational collapse. All that's left to argue over are side effects.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Seems like the running assumption is that the thanix cannon would be "big enough".

Well, it did give the Normandy cruiser to dreadnought level firepower. 

 

[CptFalconPunch]

Then I have no idea how you revere ME2, since it abandoned the series' central conflict quite literally, changed most of the characters in a two-year jump to alter the focus, lost more narrative coherence than ME3 did in relation to ME2 due to all its alterations, and moved closer to space-fantasy shooter in the first half hour of the game with the nonsense of Lazarus.

Ok, serious question, where did you study English? Where you born with the gift of amazing writing, and do you post anything in a blog somewhere? Or just here?

[angol fear]

Yeah, the faux gravitas of how epic stories work and have worked since the Odyssey.

The Odyssey, the story of Odysseus who can't do anything but accept what Poseidon, Athena and the other want him to do.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Then I have no idea how you revere ME2, since it abandoned the series' central conflict quite literally, changed most of the characters in a two-year jump to alter the focus, lost more narrative coherence than ME3 did in relation to ME2 due to all its alterations, and moved closer to space-fantasy shooter in the first half hour of the game with the nonsense of Lazarus.

 

In case you didn't notice, ME2 was inspiring and triumphant. But you don't seem to care about that, as you seem to revel in grimdark, tragic stories where protagonists are doomed to fail, and their struggles boil down to those of dust fighting against cosmic winds.

 

Also, the only thing from that list that can be legitimately applied to ME2 is the central conflict issue, and that isn't abandoned. One could argue that it's somewhat sidelined.

 

 

Except, well, we did win. The Reapers were never going to be defeated by simply whacking them really hard. But any ending that gives the achievement ends with the Crucible either killing or reprogramming every Reaper in the galaxy. Mission accomplished. The EC removes the suggestion of civilizational collapse. All that's left to argue over are side effects.

 

We did? Sure as hell didn't feel like a victory.

[angol fear]

Staff Lt Alenko, I'd just try to correct one mistake you make. A lot of people use the word epic, but don't know what is an epic story. They don't know because they didn't read the Odyssey, Iliad, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or stories from the middle ages. The problem is that people only know fantasy and American movies. These two sure are "inspiring and triumphant" but they are not epic in its original meaning. Mass Effect is epic, the ending is epic. It's not the way you understand the word epic, but from the establish meaning, it is.

[dreamgazer]

In case you didn't notice, ME2 was inspiring and triumphant. But you don't seem to care about that, as you seem to revel in grimdark, tragic stories where protagonists are doomed to fail, and their struggles boil down to those of dust fighting against cosmic winds.

 

Also, the only thing from that list that can be legitimately applied to ME2 is the central conflict issue, and that isn't abandoned. One could argue that it's sidelined.

 

Putting the wrong words in my mouth, Alenko, but I know that's easier.

 

Yes, ME3 was "grim", but the series has set up the Reaper extermination to be as such from the very first game, and BioWare is to be commended for getting the content this close to what was foreshadowed while still structuring a story that led to the Reapers' defeat.  As HYR posted and in relation to the rest of the lore, it could have been much worse, and likely should have been.  Calling ME3 "grimdark" is laughable, considering the threat was defeated and the player was actually given opportunities to take down a handful of Reapers on their own.  That was almost generous, in fact, and offered moments of triumph while realizing a feasible solution (despite being roughly handled by the writers). 

 

As for the elements I mentioned about how ME2 abandoned ME1? Eh. Look at the MEU and MEU v2.0 after the two-year resurrection however you'd like. 

[jtav]

I think the game could have stood to be darker, particularly in how it handled indoctrination. We should have had to kill sympathetic people, maybe even a squad member, instead of Udina or TIM.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Staff Lt Alenko, I'd just try to correct one mistake you make. A lot of people use the word epic, but don't know what is an epic story. They don't know because they didn't read the Odyssey, Iliad, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or stories from the middle ages. The problem is that people only know fantasy and American movies. These two sure are "inspiring and triumphant" but they are not epic in its original meaning. Mass Effect is epic, the ending is epic. It's not the way you understand the word epic, but from the establish meaning, it is.

 

Thank you, but I did mean "epic" in the original meaning of the word. Mass Effect is epic, as if in it is a part of a sci-fi epic genre. The "ending" is incompatible with that genre, the fact that it struggles to be an ending at all notwithstanding.

 

 

Putting the wrong words in my mouth, Alenko, but I know that's easier.

 

Yes, ME3 was "grim", but the series has set up the Reaper extermination to be as such from the very first game, and BioWare is to be commended for getting the content this close to what was foreshadowed while still structuring a story that led to the Reapers' defeat.  As HYR posted and in relation to the rest of the lore, it could have been much worse, and likely should have been.  Calling ME3 "grimdark" is laughable, considering the threat was defeated and the player was actually given opportunities to take down a handful of Reapers on their own.  That was almost generous, in fact, and offered moments of triumph while realizing a feasible solution (despite being roughly handled by the writers). 

 

As for the elements I mentioned about how ME2 abandoned ME1? Eh. Look at the MEU and MEU v2.0 after the two-year resurrection however you'd like. 

 

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I am trying to convey how you are coming across in my view. You keep focusing on how BioWare set up the Reaper extermination and how they tried to stay true to that setup, while I tend to focus on that they have also set up the theme of the games as being triumphant against insurmountable odds and Shepard as a survivor. You claim it should have been much worse, I claim the exact opposite.

 

Also, I'm not calling "ME3" grimdark, so this time around it is you who are putting words in my mouth. Also, while I have resorted to quoting ME2 (gasp!), you are resorting to patronizing and condescending (the bolded bit). *shrugs* In turn, I shall now resort in turn to posting a silly picture:

 

 

Finally, as for those elements of ME2 you keep mentioning: I am looking. And I see no "MEU v.2". I see plot holes, sure, but no dealbreakers. Nothing that isn't a concious decision which has its cons and pros. The ammo retcone gave us faster-paced gameplay. Cerberus railroading gave as TIM, who is a compelling character and works gloriously as a guy you love to hate. Et cetera.

 

 

I think the game could have stood to be darker, particularly in how it handled indoctrination. We should have had to kill sympathetic people, maybe even a squad member, instead of Udina or TIM.

 

I actually agree - it could have been made consistently darker, which I wouldn't have liked, but it would have been a clear tonal decision. Instead it is a mess, a whiplash of dark (often needlessly or stupidly or badly written dark) and hopeful (likwise).

 

Oh and I like Udina! And I mean ME1 Udina. You know, the one that was a complete jackass, but did his job and had some gloriously hammy lines directed at the Council like: "This is an OUTRAGE!" or "SEND YOUR FLEET IN!" *clenches fist*

[dreamgazer]

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I am trying to convey how you are coming across in my view. You keep focusing on how BioWare set up the Reaper extermination and how they tried to stay true to that setup, while I tend to focus on that they have also set up the theme of the games as being triumphant against insurmountable odds and Shepard as a survivor. You claim it should have been much worse, I claim the exact opposite.

 

Also, I'm not calling "ME3" grimdark, so this time around it is you who are putting words in my mouth. Also, while I have resorted to quoting ME2 (gasp!), you are resorting to patronizing and condescending (the bolded bit). *shrugs* In turn, I shall now resort in turn to posting a silly picture:

 

 

No, I claim that it COULD have been much worse, not that I feel they really should have.  I think they hit a decent sweet spot in tone and triumph, with some execution issues in the end. If the Reapers' targeting systems and millions of years of military strategy had been 100% authentically preserved, then ME3 wouldn't have lasted very long at all. Even worse if the galaxy were trying to be the epic aggressors instead of smartly building an external solution. BioWare cut this cycle some major slack in order to produce something that's even close to representative of what we've come to expect, and I find the idea of them cutting even more slack to be incredibly disingenuous to the story proper. 

 

Also, in relation to misrepresentation ...

 

But you don't seem to care about that, as you seem to revel in grimdark, tragic stories where protagonists are doomed to fail, and their struggles boil down to those of dust fighting against cosmic winds.

 

Yeah, I never said or implied any of those things. So:

 

[Iakus]

Except, well, we did win. The Reapers were never going to be defeated by simply whacking them really hard. But any ending that gives the achievement ends with the Crucible either killing or reprogramming every Reaper in the galaxy. Mission accomplished. The EC removes the suggestion of civilizational collapse. All that's left to argue over are side effects.

 

Except the "victory" felt like it's laced with all those side effects they list on tv drug ads.  At some point, it's just not worth it anymore

[Iakus]

Another idea I had for rewriting ME3, which I haven't detailed, involves following up on ME1&2 with no new plot developments at all.

 

So basically, the galaxy is hopelessly screwed.

 

ME3 basically becomes a tragic horror story where Shepard goes to each planet, trying to figure out some way to stop them, but all his/her efforts fail. With each failure, Shepard sees each civilization of the galaxy fall one by one, with every subsequent mission bringing new husk horrors he must fight. Old friends of Shepard also get indoctrinated and need be put down as they attack Shepard. None of your previous decisions change anything. The Reapers roll. In a last act of defiance, Shepard places a beacon with something that's believed to be the key to stopping the Reapers forever before he himself is taken by them...

 

... and then, we witness the next cycle's war: they fail too.

 

That I do not find this significantly worse than the endings we did get should say something about my thoughts on this.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

No, I claim that it COULD have been much worse, not that I feel they really should have.  I think they hit a decent sweet spot in tone and triumph, with some execution issues in the end. If the Reapers' targeting systems and millions of years of military strategy had been 100% authentically preserved, then ME3 wouldn't have lasted very long at all. Even worse if the galaxy were trying to be the epic aggressors instead of smartly building an external solution. BioWare cut this cycle some major slack in order to produce something that's even close to representative of what we've come to expect, and I find the idea of them cutting even more slack to be incredibly disingenuous to the story proper. 

 

And, as to the second paragraph ...

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I never said or implied any of those things. So:

 

 

What Reaper targeting systems and millions of years of what strategy? Because you're not refering to the strategy of "come in via the Citadel relay in a surprise attack, get all the crucial information on the current cycle from the Citadel records, shut down relay network, take on single systems one by one", are you?

 

Also, that "BioWare cut this cycle some major slack in order to produce something that's even close to representative of what we've come to expect," bit...

 

Here: "BioWare cut this cycle some major slack in order to produce something that's even close to representative of what you've come to expect,"

 

Fixed it.

 

And as for those things you claim you have not implied, well... Not the impression that I got, but if you say so, then fair enough. I take that back. We do have very different views on the nature of the Reapers though, and I'll just say this: I prefer to focus on the positve.

[dreamgazer]

What Reaper targeting systems and millions of years of what strategy? Because you're not refering to the strategy of "come in via the Citadel relay in a surprise attack, get all the crucial information on the current cycle from the Citadel records, shut down relay network, take on single systems one by one", are you?

 

Do you honestly think that's their only play, when they've had to wipe out cycle upon cycle of advanced civilizations for millions of years?

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Do you honestly think that's their only play, when they've had to wipe out cycle upon cycle of advanced civilizations for millions of years?

 

Yes.

 

If they could just take on the entire galaxy head on every time, and win, they would. There would be no need for this whole debacle with shutting down the relay network and the Citadel trap.

 

I don't understand why are you so hell-bent on giving the antagonists in a sci-fi story so much focus and credit. If the baddies were actually competent, there would be no heroic stories. The protagonist would just be killed or stopped 15 minutes into the book, movie or a game.

[dreamgazer]

Yes.

 

If they could just take on the entire galaxy head on every time, and win, they would. There would be no need for this whole debacle with shutting down the relay network and the Citadel trap.

 

I don't understand why are you so hell-bent on giving the antagonists in a sci-fi story so much focus and credit. If the baddies were actually competent, there would be no heroic stories. The protagonist would just be killed or stopped 15 minutes into the book, movie or a game.

 

In my estimation, they did it to preserve resources. Taking on the galaxy head-on ensures that they will lose far more in the battles and run the risk of losing things like the Citadel, valuable planets, and, yes, some of their fleet, as opposed to the sneak tactics that consolidate damage.  Look to Bekenstein for an example.  They're not entirely invincible, bu they are purported to be overwhelming, intelligent, and vastly experienced doing this "harvest" thing.  

 

War is about more than just winning or losing, and I'm "hell-bent" on sticking with what the story purports about the Reapers and respecting previous advanced civilizations. 

[Eryri]

I think the game could have stood to be darker, particularly in how it handled indoctrination. We should have had to kill sympathetic people, maybe even a squad member, instead of Udina or TIM.

Indeed. I find it astonishing that the mind controlling antagonists hardly ever actually seem to control any minds. Or at least the minds of any fleshed out characters, just faceless cannon fodder and characters like Saren and Harper who were morally dubious anyway. The only sympathetic character (besides perhaps those poor Salarians on Virmire) that falls to indoctrination is Benezia, who we only really care about as she happens to be Liara's mother. To me, It really seems like a wasted opportunity for pathos that no one Shepard personally cares about, is ever affected (as far as I can recall.)

Except teh "victory" felt like it's laced with all those side effects they list on tv drug ads. At some point, it's just not worth it anymore

And as the long running "All were thematically revolting" thread explored, it's arguable whether Shepard wins at all if he ends up agreeing with his enemies' philosophies. In Destroy, we agree with the Reapers that synthetic life is inherently dangerous, and wipe it from the galaxy. In Control, we agree with them that organics and synthetics cannot be trusted to get along, and so set ourselves up as Big Brother to watch them all for ever. In the green ending we agree with them that organics and synthetics are both deeply flawed, and proceed to purge this form of original sin by dying for their synthesis.

If we want to say "No! Organics and synthetics can get along just fine without your meddling. I proved that on Rannoch. I don't believe your " problem " even exists, and I'm certainly not going to die for it!", then things end in an admittedly predictable disaster.

"The Illusive Man was right after all." Indeed...

[dreamgazer]

Not to open a long debate, but the tentative and possibly transient cooperation between the quarians an the geth is not, in any shape or form, empirical evidence that organics and synthetics will get along.  We'd need to observe their relationship over several decades, at the very least, to reach that conclusion ... and that's merely one example. 

 

"Success in creating AI would be the biggest event in human history. Unfortunately, it might also be the last." - Stephen Hawking

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ok, serious question, where did you study English? Where you born with the gift of amazing writing, and do you post anything in a blog somewhere? Or just here?

 

Well, his opposition has been a less than inspiring with his arguments. 

[Eryri]

...the tentative and possibly transient cooperation between the quarians an the geth is not, in any shape or form, empirical evidence that organics and synthetics will get along. We'd need to observe their relationship over several decades, at the very least, to reach that conclusion ... and that's merely one example.

Well, we'll never know now, will we?

Personally, I interpreted the Quarian / Geth conflict as having the fairly simple moral of "treating other people like crap will come back to bite you in the ass one day." "Do unto others" and so on. The fact that one was synthetic and the other organic was immaterial to me, as I viewed it as a metaphor for conflict between human oppressors and those they oppressed. Then the ending came round, and it became apparent that I was wrong to view it metaphorically. It really was just about organics vs big bad robots... "Oh" I thought... "What an incredibly esoteric and nerdish concern."

[dreamgazer]

Well, we'll never know now, will we?

Personally, I interpreted the Quarian / Geth conflict as having the fairly simple moral of "treating other people like crap will come back to bite you in the ass one day." "Do unto others" and so on. The fact that one was synthetic and the other organic was immaterial to me, as I viewed it as a metaphor for conflict between human oppressors and those they oppressed. Then the ending came round, and it became apparent that I was wrong to view it metaphorically. It really was just about organics vs big bad robots... "Oh" I thought... "What an incredibly esoteric and nerdish concern."

 

I wouldn't personally reduce the unpredictable and emotionally cold nature of synthetic computing prowess to "big bad robots". 

 

And no, we wouldn't know, until it was too late.