702 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

I wouldn't personally reduce the unpredictable and emotionally cold nature of synthetic computing prowess to "big bad robots".

And no, we wouldn't know, until it was too late.

True. I would have to concede there. I suppose, being raised on Star Trek with its quaint but loveable message of understanding and tolerance, it came as an unwelcome shock to realise that ME was not the Roddenberry-esque homage I thought it to be.

[dreamgazer]

True. I would have to concede there. I suppose, being raised on Star Trek with its quaint but loveable message of understanding and tolerance, it came as an unwelcome shock to realise that ME was not the Roddenberry-esque homage I thought it to be.

 

Remember, you're talking about AIs who have willingly sided with the Reapers in the past.

[Iakus]

Not to open a long debate, but the tentative and possibly transient cooperation between the quarians an the geth is not, in any shape or form, empirical evidence that organics and synthetics will get along.  We'd need to observe their relationship over several decades, at the very least, to reach that conclusion ... and that's merely one example. 

 

"Success in creating AI would be the biggest event in human history. Unfortunately, it might also be the last." - Stephen Hawking

 

It is stronger evidence than the Catalyst gives us:

 

"Trust me.  I'm right on this"

[JamesFaith]

Not to open a long debate, but the tentative and possibly transient cooperation between the quarians an the geth is not, in any shape or form, empirical evidence that organics and synthetics will get along.  We'd need to observe their relationship over several decades, at the very least, to reach that conclusion ... and that's merely one example. 

 

 

Exactly.

 

Peace caused by need to unite against mutual enemy often survive only few years/decades after defeating such enemy and then hostility return. Our history is full of such example.

[Iakus]

Exactly.

 

Peace caused by need to unite against mutual enemy often survive only few years/decades after defeating such enemy and then hostility return. Our history is full of such example.

We also have examples of people being enemies for centuries eventually getting past their differences without forcible gene therapy.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Remember, you're talking about AIs who have willingly sided with the Reapers in the past.

 

How many times must it be said that only a minority faction of the Geth worked willingly while the greater bulk refused?

[dreamgazer]

It is stronger evidence than the Catalyst gives us:

 

"Trust me.  I'm right on this"

 

I'd say the events of ME1 and the Zha'til during the Protheans' era offer some support to the Catalyst's assertion of the problem. 

 

How many times must it be said that only a minority faction of the Geth worked willingly while the greater bulk refused?

 

Didn't know that in ME1.  That was a change for ME2.

 

That said, it was still an element of their specific computing processes, one that could easily reemerge after some number-crunching.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

In my estimation, they did it to preserve resources. Taking on the galaxy head-on ensures that they will lose far more in the battles and run the risk of losing things like the Citadel, valuable planets, and, yes, some of their fleet, as opposed to the sneak tactics that consolidate damage.  Look to Bekenstein for an example.  They're not entirely invincible, bu they are purported to be overwhelming, intelligent, and vastly experienced doing this "harvest" thing.  

 

And I believe your estimation to be off. Note that this time they are not "doing this harvest thing". They are attacking a much more prepared Galaxy, with its inhabitants being aware of the threat. It is entirely the matter of how you write ME3 from the ground up.

 

 

 

War is about more than just winning or losing, and I'm "hell-bent" on sticking with what the story purports about the Reapers and respecting previous advanced civilizations.

 

Funny, that's my sentiment as well. What the story purports about the Reapers in ME1 and ME2 is that they are an overwhelming threat for the protagonists to overcome against all odds. As for respecting previous advanced civilizations, how about starting with one of them - the Protheans, who enabled the victory in ME1.

 

Also, how about respecting the beloved characters that the series introduced. Look how "ME3" treats almost all of ME2 characters. Look at how Thane's death was handled, for example. Just another reason I reject this game.

 

 

I wouldn't personally reduce the unpredictable and emotionally cold nature of synthetic computing prowess to "big bad robots". 

 

And no, we wouldn't know, until it was too late. 

 

It's not Eryri that reduces anything here, it's "ME3" that does. You're doing the exact same thing Stanley Woo did during the original fan outcry when people were pointing out that the game ends with RGB to which he responded with "It's not our fault that you want to summarize an ending to a huge space sci-fi saga as RGB".

 

 

True. I would have to concede there. I suppose, being raised on Star Trek with its quaint but loveable message of understanding and tolerance, it came as an unwelcome shock to realise that ME was not the Roddenberry-esque homage I thought it to be.

 

But it was. And still is. It's just the matter of what you are willing to accept.

[AlanC9]

That said, it was still an element of their specific computing processes, one that could easily reemerge after some number-crunching.

Right. There's no inertia. The consensus can flip their whole society on a dime. Doesn't EDI talk about this?

[Iakus]

I'd say the events of ME1 and the Zha'til during the Protheans' era offer some support to the Catalyst's assertion of the problem. 

 

 

That a small minority of the geth chose to side with the Reapers?

 

Oh, and the Zha'til were co-opted by the Reapers.

 

So yeah, all that "evidence" is pretty much manufactured by the Reapers themselves.

[themikefest]

Best way to deal with the robots/machines/tin cans/walking flashlights is choose the Quarians and pick destroy or pick destroy frying the things.

[Iakus]

Best way to deal with the robots/machines/tin cans/walking flashlights is choose the Quarians and pick destroy or pick destroy frying the things.

Why should the geth suffer for the Catalyst's lies?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I'd say the events of ME1 and the Zha'til during the Protheans' era offer some support to the Catalyst's assertion of the problem. 

 

 

Didn't know that in ME1.  That was a change for ME2.

 

That said, it was still an element of their specific computing processes, one that could easily reemerge after some number-crunching.

 

That wasnt a change for ME2. There were little to no details given as for why the Geth would actually work with Saren.

 

Plus I'd go on a limb and say that if it was the entire race, they could send one hell of a larger fleet for the Citadel attack that no one could have beaten under those circumstances.

[themikefest]

 

Why should the geth suffer for the Catalyst's lies?

Who cares? They can be rebuilt if the galaxy chooses.

[DeinonSlayer]

That a small minority of the geth chose to side with the Reapers?

Oh, and the Zha'til were co-opted by the Reapers.

So yeah, all that "evidence" is pretty much manufactured by the Reapers themselves.

Well, there was the whole part about how they did destroy their creators (~99% of them) which ME3 pretty much wanted us to forget about so that we might sympathize more with them, but I probably shouldn't take the thread in that direction.

Still, yeah - two of the three synthetic/organic conflicts we know of were fomented by the Reapers themselves. Glowboy pretty much is the problem he was designed to solve. If he won't do us the kindness of self-destruction, though, that leaves us with the options we're presented, distasteful though they may be.

[dreamgazer]

The Reapers may have presented the problem before, but the geth accepting their offer (fragmented or not) and siding with them is still a symptom, and there's no telling what direction their programming could go in the future with other opportunities. 

 

And I believe your estimation to be off. Note that this time they are not "doing this harvest thing". They are attacking a much more prepared Galaxy, with its inhabitants being aware of the threat. It is entirely the matter of how you write ME3 from the ground up.

 

Much more prepared? No, ME2's pointlessness ensured that the galaxy was, in fact, not more prepared.

 

And you're making the Reapers out to be really pathetic beings that have never done anything like this before. Millions of years. Millions. 

 

Funny, that's my sentiment as well. What the story purports about the Reapers in ME1 and ME2 is that they are an overwhelming threat for the protagonists to overcome against all odds. As for respecting previous advanced civilizations, how about starting with one of them - the Protheans, who enabled the victory in ME1.

 

Sovereign and the Collectors are not equivalent to the entirety of the Reaper force, whatsoever.

 

Even so, you still did overcome all odds, just in an abstract and self-aware way. The Protheans would be disappointed if the next cycle took primitive measures that wouldn't be thorough in the slightest, such as strapping advanced pea-shooters onto airships and hoping strategic maneuvers will suffice. ME2 needed to establish far better weaknesses to their defenses, instead of resolving personal issues with new characters.

 

Also, how about respecting the beloved characters that the series introduced. Look how "ME3" treats almost all of ME2 characters. Look at how Thane's death was handled, for example. Just another reason I reject this game.

 

Eh, at least they appeared, some in better appearances than others. I agree that more content with them would have been great (and that Miranda needed to be a companion option on Cronos), but they're all potentially-dead variables.

 

It's not Eryri that reduces anything here, it's "ME3" that does. You're doing the exact same thing Stanley Woo did during the original fan outcry when people were pointing out that the game ends with RGB to which he responded with "It's not our fault that you want to summarize an ending to a huge space sci-fi saga as RGB".

 

Calling them "big bad robots" is, in fact, a reduction of what's presented across all three games (no offense intended towards Eryri), and calculation is their entire form of decision-making. That's the nature of synthetics in general, especially the geth as they've been created. It's in their programming.

 

Right. There's no inertia. The consensus can flip their whole society on a dime. Doesn't EDI talk about this?

 

^

[CptFalconPunch]

Right, because dark equals profound. Let's turn Mass Effect into a study on the futility of life or something.

 

You just have this mentality of the Reapers being too powerful, too numerous and the galactic races too insignificant to be able to do anything about it. It's like you have been indoctrinated, viewing the Reapers with superstitious awe. It's ridiculous.

I don't know why you think its ridiculous, darkness/futility and being insignificant is a part of our humanity.

Is it ridiculous that mass effect likes to explore places like these and trigger thoughts and emotions? That you can find something deeper than basic violence and sex instincts?

I was in awe back in 2008, and I am still in awe today whenever I see that conversation. From that point in that game, I never had a more intense and cathartic play in my life. The villain is so intimidating due to his indifference, the satisfaction I got from killing him in the end is just unrepeatable.

 

Saying that its ridiculous that someone views the reapers in superstitious awe, due to your real life beliefs is dumb. The whole art form of videogames is based on an illusion, a human imperfection of the eye. In this game you're able to get engaged, worry, be happy, be afraid etc, and you think its ridiculous we feel this certain emotion. Dark souls, amnesia, silent hill all did it.

Video games are video games, not real life. Its an imaginary world where everything can happen. Not all of us have the same tastes and suspend our disbelief the same. No reason to attack anyone if you can't feel it.

Well, his opposition has been a less than inspiring with his arguments. 

His own internal opposition or the opposition he faces from other members?

 

Remember, you're talking about AIs who have willingly sided with the Reapers in the past.

You mean "some" AI's that have sided with the reapers, while the others disagreed. Kind of like humans huh? All AI are is a projection of humans.

[Mathias]

I think one of the greatest crimes of the ending was how it completely ignored the Geth making peace with the Quarians. Anyone else find it odd that when the Catalyst told you Synthetics will always destroy Organics, you didn't get an option to bring up the Geth and Quarians? Even in the Extended Cut? I mean that was a major culturally changing event. It's like if one of you guys started to tell me that is is a fact that Jews and Muslims will always kill each other, only a few days after the entire Middle East declared peace. That's not exactly something somebody would forget, we're talking about worldwide news here that would go on for weeks. But Shepard actually played a key role in the peace between the Geth and Quarians. 

 

The only reason I can think why Shepard didn't bring this up is because the writer didn't want him to. Because it would pretty much put a damper on whatever the F they were trying to do with that ending.

[dreamgazer]

You mean "some" AI's that have sided with the reapers, while the others disagreed. Kind of like humans huh? All AI are is a projection of humans.

 

I do mean "some".  Yet, how many organics willingly sided with the Reapers, without being touched with indoctrination? 

 

I think one of the greatest crimes of the ending was how it completely ignored the Geth making peace with the Quarians. Anyone else find it odd that when the Catalyst told you Synthetics will always destroy Organics, you didn't get an option to bring up the Geth and Quarians? Even in the Extended Cut? I mean that was a major culturally changing event. It's like if one of you guys started to tell me that is is a fact that Jews and Muslims will always kill each other, only a few days after the entire Middle East declared peace. That's not exactly something somebody would forget, we're talking about worldwide news here that would go on for weeks. But Shepard actually played a key role in the peace between the Geth and Quarians. 

 

The only reason I can think why Shepard didn't bring this up is because the writer didn't want him to. 

 

They probably should have let Shepard at least ask about their fresh, possibly temporary truce, just so the Catalyst could shut it down.

 

Under the circumstances, it's not convincing at all.  "The peace won't last."

[DeinonSlayer]

I think one of the greatest crimes of the ending was how it completely ignored the Geth making peace with the Quarians. Anyone else find it odd that when the Catalyst told you Synthetics will always destroy Organics, you didn't get an option to bring up the Geth and Quarians? Even in the Extended Cut? I mean that was a major culturally changing event. It's like if one of you guys started to tell me that is is a fact that Jews and Muslims will always kill each other, only a few days after the entire Middle East declared peace. That's not exactly something somebody would forget, we're talking about worldwide news here that would go on for weeks. But Shepard actually played a key role in the peace between the Geth and Quarians. 
 
The only reason I can think why Shepard didn't bring this up is because the writer didn't want him to. Because it would pretty much put a damper on whatever the F they were trying to do with that ending.

Relevant.

Shepard could have confronted the catalyst with the example of Rannoch, regardless of its outcome.

1) PEACE - for obvious reasons.
2) QUARIAN VICTORY - Three centuries ago, the rest of the galaxy stood back while Rannoch burned. We see now that when we actually step up to help each other when the problem arises, organics can prevail.
3) GETH VICTORY - The Quarian extinction now serves as an object lesson to the rest of the galaxy: "we can't beat them, so we have to learn to live with them."

We shouldn't have been forced via autodialogue to say "there must be another way!" when glowbrat warns that destroy will result in the cycle repeating itself. That would have been the perfect opportunity to pitch Rannoch as a counterargument.

[Mathias]

I do mean "some".  Yet, how many organics willingly sided with the Reapers, without being touched with indoctrination? 

 

 

They probably should have let Shepard at least ask about their fresh, possibly temporary truce, just so the Catalyst could shut it down.

 

Under the circumstances, it's not convincing at all.

 

I think it's very convincing.

[dreamgazer]

I think it's very convincing.

 

How so? Truces fall apart all the time, and it's even more likely to happen with a synthetic consensus.

[themikefest]

I still would've liked Shepard to ask about  Rannoch to the Leviathan turd only to hear what its answer would be.

[Mathias]

How so? Truces fall apart all the time, and it's even more likely to happen with a synthetic consensus.

 

So what? Things work themselves out naturally.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'd say the events of ME1 and the Zha'til during the Protheans' era offer some support to the Catalyst's assertion of the problem. 

 

 

Didn't know that in ME1.  That was a change for ME2.

 

That said, it was still an element of their specific computing processes, one that could easily reemerge after some number-crunching.

 

I'd make an argument however that the Catalyst is also being a bit hypocritical here, in that his Reapers are actually instigating conflict. The Geth were approached by Sovereign for the purpose of using them to assault the Citadel. This comes into conflict with their supposed mandate of preventing conflict. Given how it is inerrant to abide by its mandate to the point of preemptively targeting whatever species is at the galactic apex to prevent them from achieving conflict with synthetic creations, this comes across as an illogical move for the Reapers and the Catalyst for moving so drastically from their procedure. Of course, I just explain it a s bad writing in ME3.