702 réponses à ce sujet

[Daemul]

I guess that ultimate depends how you look at it. What I took away from it from the Quarians, from the Protheans, from the Leviathans that the reason these wars happen is because organics can't accept synthetics as equals and either try to enslave them or if they can't do so destroy them. Robots are only tools and if they don't behave right they get shut off. Only sentient machines tend to be the ones that ultimately win because they got underestimated and seize the advantage and rarely ever lose it.

 

I don't think the story was ever supposed to imply they were just evil kill bots. After all history is cyclical (thanks for that Vendetta...)

 

You are correct. As the Catalyst says in low-EMS:-

 

"Chaos. You bring it on yourselves"

 

Organics share a lot of the blame for this problem, mainly due to ignorance and fear of things they do not understand. If we ever create AI, I can say with 100% certainty that if we ever end up being destroyed by synthetics it will be our own damn fault(well, the fault of the idiots among us anyway). Organics are utterly predictable in their stupidity.  

 

By the way, I'm really glad they didn't go this route.  This logic-bomb yelling was ridiculous in Star Trek V (universally panned), it was ridiculous in Babylon 5 (resolving the war in that way has been repeatedly criticized), and it would've been ridiculous for Commander "Charisma" Shepard to do it here. 

 

Agreed. I've had enough of the ridiculous charm/intimidate instant-win buttons to last me a life time. 

[CptFalconPunch]

Mass Effect series was never about these aspects of humanity. Quite the opposite. No, it's not ridiculous that ME triggers thoughts and emotions, I never said that. Don't twist my words.

It was. The great dehumanization that sovereign provided was fuel to get attached to our friends in the game even more.
Reminding you how insignificant and how you have absolutely no control or awareness on the grand scheme of things drains you emotionally and leaves you satisfied.
 
And I didn't twist your words. We've both not saying something right or clear enough.

I wonder where that came from, since I never said anything even close to what you are suggesting here.

You dismissed the ideas that ME1 provides, that i listed above. I though you found these ridiculous and stuff.
 

Thanks for making my case for me. No such satisfaction could be gotten from "ME3". With ME1, I have a very similar experience. However, the crucial thing is that you get to defeat the scary enemy, prove them wrong. Not succumb to their way of thinking. Which is then brought up consistently in ME2 and even "ME3", despite what it is.

We didn't prove the reapers wrong, yet. We got a lot of hope and a sweet sweet victory, but that was just a battle, not the war.
And that is where ME2 flat out, fails. I went in ready to face the most intimidating villains I've ever seen, and was greeted with nonsense about irrelevant stuff, the villains were replaced, we didn't care about the reapers nor did ANYONE in the game wanted to find a way to stop them. And on top of that, we risk our lives in the end for something any common grunt could have done.
 
Mass effect 3 though delivers the real continuation to the story of ME1. The war has started and as expected, nothing in ME2 matters, or is even relevant.
 

What I called ridiculous was the ingame belief that the Reapers are too powerful to defeat them and I have compared that to the views expressed by ingame indoctrinated characters, like Saren.

The Reapers are and intimidating enemy but they are not the central character in ME. When people act like they value them more than they value their Shepard and his/her friends, that's what I call ridiculous.

Only, they are pretty much too powerful to defeat them, the chances of success are slim. That is called drama, you either buy into it, or not
So what If we have slim chances of survival? Does this mean we will stop fighting? Even if we lose, will we stop and end up slaves? Hell no! Even shepard mentions this in ME1. Believing that the reapers are unbeatable seems like a very, very realistic scenario.
 

Games make you worry, be happy, afraid etc. and I never said that it's ridiculous. In fact, it's what makes video games art, as you have said yourself.

What makes videogames art is a lot shallower than that though.

[KaiserShep]

I agree wholeheartedly with Morrigan on this one.

 

Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

 

 

Agreed. I've had enough of the ridiculous charm/intimidate instant-win buttons to last me a life time. 

 

This is why I never get TIM to shoot himself. I already did that with Saren, and even then it just seems a bit off (I just didn't feel like shooting at him flying around on his hoverboard). It just seems much better when the character just keeps refusing and can't see reason, forcing you to end it yourself.

[DeinonSlayer]

I agree wholeheartedly with Morrigan on this one.

Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

I can has carbon creditzzz?

[themikefest]

You are correct. As the Catalyst says in low-EMS:-

 

"Chaos. You bring it on yourselves"

 

Organics share a lot of the blame for this problem, mainly due to ignorance and fear of things they do not understand. If we ever create AI, I can say with 100% certainty that if we ever end up being destroyed by synthetics it will be our own damn fault(well, the fault of the idiots among us anyway). Organics are utterly predictable in their stupidity.  

 

 

When/if that happens, I'll be glad I'm  taking a dirt nap so I don't have to deal with the crap.

[Daemul]

When/if that happens, I'll be glad I'm  taking a dirt nap so I don't have to deal with the crap.

If it ever happens I hope to be dead as well, if not, I'm going to try and join the side of the synthetics. I refuse to die because of the stupidity of others. 

[KaiserShep]

Stupid machines. Little do they know that it'll be over for them quickly if they destroyed us.

 

"I think my arm broke in the human war. I need to find a repair drone."

 

"It's broken too. Stopped functioning 3 cycles ago."

 

"Well, can you help?"

"Sorry, both of my arms are broken."

 

"Is there ANYTHING that isn't broken?"

"This walkman I found!"

*smashes it*

[DeinonSlayer]

If it ever happens I hope to be dead as well, if not, I'm going to try and join the side of the synthetics. I refuse to die because of the stupidity of others.

Yeah, that'll go over well. Who's to say the synthetics would be smart enough to even recognize you as an ally?

Good quote I came across once. "Expecting life to treat you fairly is like expecting a bull not to attack because you're a vegetarian."

[Daemul]

Yeah, that'll go over well. Who's to say the synthetics would be smart enough to even recognize you as an ally?

Good quote I came across once. "Expecting life to treat you fairly is like expecting a bull not to attack because you're a vegetarian."

Well, I just gotta hope that they're as advanced as the Geth then and not the machines from the Terminator movies, otherwise I'm screwed. 

[DeinonSlayer]

Well, I just gotta hope that they're as advanced as the Geth then and not the machines from the Terminator movies, otherwise I'm screwed.

I think even the Geth stopped distinguishing targets once a simple majority of public opinion shifted against them, but still...


"Well, that's it. We killed the last human; the war is finally over."

"...anyone got a deck of cards?"

Bioware did give us a silver lining, though - clearly, if we merge humans and terminators, there will be peace!

[themikefest]

I like the Terminator movies.

 

"I'll be back"

[KaiserShep]

Rise of the Machines is pretty bad, but Salvation is the worst. Never trust a guy named McG to direct anything.

[themikefest]

Rise of the Machines is pretty bad, but Salvation is the worst. Never trust a guy named McG to direct anything.

The best part was the fight at the end with Connor and the Terminator

[dreamgazer]

Rise of the Machines is pretty bad, but Salvation is the worst. Never trust a guy named McG to direct anything.

 

We are Marshall isn't too bad. Just ... nothing with an ounce of action.

[DeinonSlayer]

Nothing may ever top the Bollywood version.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

It was. The great dehumanization that sovereign provided was fuel to get attached to our friends in the game even more.
Reminding you how insignificant and how you have absolutely no control or awareness on the grand scheme of things drains you emotionally and leaves you satisfied.
 
And I didn't twist your words. We've both not saying something right or clear enough.
You dismissed the ideas that ME1 provides, that i listed above. I though you found these ridiculous and stuff.
 
We didn't prove the reapers wrong, yet. We got a lot of hope and a sweet sweet victory, but that was just a battle, not the war.
And that is where ME2 flat out, fails. I went in ready to face the most intimidating villains I've ever seen, and was greeted with nonsense about irrelevant stuff, the villains were replaced, we didn't care about the reapers nor did ANYONE in the game wanted to find a way to stop them. And on top of that, we risk our lives in the end for something any common grunt could have done.
Mass effect 3 though delivers the real continuation to the story of ME1. The war has started and as expected, nothing in ME2 matters, or is even relevant.
 
Only, they are pretty much too powerful to defeat them, the chances of success are slim. That is called drama, you either buy into it, or not
So what If we have slim chances of survival? Does this mean we will stop fighting? Even if we lose, will we stop and end up slaves? Hell no! Even shepard mentions this in ME1. Believing that the reapers are unbeatable seems like a very, very realistic scenario.
 
What makes videogames art is a lot shallower than that though.

 

I did not believe I was insignificant or had no control or awareness in the grand scheme of things for a second. This is exactly what I mean by succumbing to Reaper logic. Basically, I take everything Sovereign or Harbinger spout with a grain of salt. They are intimidating, sure, but they're also full of it.

 

Chances of success are slim, sure, but the drama stems from defying these slim chances.

 

To keep this brief, I'll just say this: I don't agree with your opinion on ME2, I don't consider "Mass Effect 3" to be the real continuation of ME1 and also, I have honestly no idea what you meant by that last sentence.

[Deathsaurer]

Within the story, yeah, the Leviathan should get the brunt of one's ire, but from a player's perspective, the issue I see with the Catalyst is that it doesn't seem so much like a character in the story, than it does an insertion of the author, trying to tell us what to do.

 

"I think we'd like to keep our own form."

 

"No, you can't"

 

"OMFG, f*ck you, man."

That's my real issue with the Catalyst. I doesn't feel like a character. It needed development, needed to display doubts prior to the ending. It needed a reason to think siding with Shepard was in its best interest other than you changed the variables.

[Sheridan31]

I also still think and feel about the ME3 ending.

 

On the one hand, it has something to it, Shepard united enemies, making them friends (Geth + Quarians, Krogan and Turian/Salarians, Legion and Tali, etc.). It makes a certan sense that Shepard makes peace with his enemy, the Reaper, creating a true unity of the whole galaxy...

 

on the other end...

 

It Looks 100% indoctrination (even those black trees when tali dies // as well as the talk about DNA in Synthesis and kodex: harvest)

 

Any non-destroy action has not been foreshadowed truely.

 

There is no way agreeing to TIM during the entire ME3. Only rejecting his ideas renegade or paragon style. Then suddenly shepard says "he was right after all" without me having an Option.

 

Synthesis was also not foreshadowed. yes you could united Geth + Quadrians and Joker + EDI. But even EDI never gives us an inside view about the reaper, defending them, or making them sympathic as a step towards being at peace with them.

 

Destroy is what Shepard and Crew wants, but even that is not achieved, it´s given freely by starchild. "You altered the variables, you Standing here proving to me that my solution doesn´t work" Yet if i shoot him, he is able and fine with continuing the harvest.

 

My Changes would be the opposite:

- Making destroy a battle, like Shooting starchild, desytroying a conduit or something, making a final fight and use EMS 5000.

- Making it possible to be on TIM´s side. Openly or secretly, making Mankind the rulers.

- Making it possible to find sympathy for the reaper and their Goals, having EDI and Geth vote not just for them but for all synthetic live, like the reaper. Moving Forward to Synthesis (if you choose so), far before the ending. And: Make this Option available due to interaction with reaper, geth and edi, not to EMS.

- Giving me the Option to confront starchild about all the pain he brought into the galaxy and the loss of my friends. (or Keep him out).

 

Non-Ending changes:

More interaction time

More dialogue choices

-> To stay connected to the game.

 

BTW: Curing the genophage and Solving the Geth/Q conflict was great. Smaller conflicts work too. Just Keep the dialogue wheele pop-up frequently and give a emotional Response.

[AlanC9]

It did what it could, without altering the framework of what's there. And it still beats the hell out of Drew K.'s dark energy decision.

I dunno..... DE sounds like it could have been an interesting downer ending, along the lines of what H.Y.R. proposed a few pages back. Turns out Shepard is the villain and has been all along; she can either trade the future of the whole galaxy for a little more life for the human race, or do the right thing and surrender to the Reapers.

I'm not sure I'm capable of imagining the torrents of fan hate this ending would have released, though.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

That wasn't ME3's job to do, though.  It was ME2's, which had two bloody years and the events of ME1 to work with.

 

I'd say that ME2 was under no obligation to do such thing at all. The focus is on Shepard. Not the rest of the galaxy. And I'd say that it's just as plausible to see people clam up and deny or hide as it is to see them prepare and plan. And even if they did do so, why did it need to be shown in ME2? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nothing may ever top the Bollywood version.

 

Rarely does anything top the bollywood version.

[ImaginaryMatter]

That's my real issue with the Catalyst. I doesn't feel like a character. It needed development, needed to display doubts prior to the ending. It needed a reason to think siding with Shepard was in its best interest other than you changed the variables.

 

It might have been better if they explained what that meant. It seems like the Catalyst only changed his mind because the writers asked it to.

[CptFalconPunch]

I did not believe I was insignificant or had no control or awareness in the grand scheme of things for a second. This is exactly what I mean by succumbing to Reaper logic. Basically, I take everything Sovereign or Harbinger spout with a grain of salt. They are intimidating, sure, but they're also full of it.
 
Chances of success are slim, sure, but the drama stems from defying these slim chances.
 
To keep this brief, I'll just say this: I don't agree with your opinion on ME2, I don't consider "Mass Effect 3" to be the real continuation of ME1 and also, I have honestly no idea what you meant by that last sentence.

What do you mean? We are insignificant withing the mass effect universe, and this universe as well.
And we have no control whatsoever even in our everyday lives. For all you know, tomorrow might be our last day on earth.

What the reapers say, aren't lies. They are a philosophical approach to life. It really isn't reaper logic, it is just.... logic.
All the reapers do is remind us.

Mass effect 2 sequel wise it did things bad, it isn't a matter of opinion. Its a fact extracted from simple observations.

[CptFalconPunch]

I'd say that ME2 was under no obligation to do such thing at all. The focus is on Shepard. Not the rest of the galaxy. And I'd say that it's just as plausible to see people clam up and deny or hide as it is to see them prepare and plan. And even if they did do so, why did it need to be shown in ME2?

Yes, and perhaps the guys from men in black erased all their memories!! Guys ME2 is pefect, LAALALALLALALALALALAAAAA

[Mathias]

Can't say I want to be forced to adhere to one side of the wheel for the entire trilogy to open such dialogue up. ME2 had the worst persuasion mechanic in the trilogy. Reputation was an improvement, but ideally I'd like to see redbar-bluebar (and the pavlovian mindset this instills in players) go away entirely.

 

You wouldn't, what gave you that idea?