702 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

Yes, their plan does not work, have never worked and cannot work and the premise of the catalyst is thus unbelievable. 

 

You are slowly inching your way to understanding how big 1 medium sized galaxy is in a universe filled with galaxies. 

 

It is nigh physically impossible and practically illogical for the reapers to reap on a scale that can fullfill, what the catalyst say they are doing.

 

 

Anyone with basic common sense, that has ever read through an astronomy book published after the 50's, would have to conclude that the catalyst is lying or a combination of delusional/stupid, which means the ending never gives a reason for the Reapings and there is only 1 ending for people like me. 

 

Crazy has the attraction of not having to give any logical sense, I can accept crazy... and I can even put the catalyst in that category, but atleast blow my mind away with crazy logic rather than stupid logic and give me more than 1 ending.  

 

In the real galaxy it would be impossible. But in the Mass Effect galaxy there's the citadel and mass relays.

[78stonewobble]

In the real galaxy it would be impossible. But in the Mass Effect galaxy there's the citadel and mass relays.

 

There is a limited number of mass relays. They're certainly not in every system, which mean relatively slow ftl to many billions of stars and planets and trillions upon trillions of places, that reapers have to check. In just one medium sized galaxy. 

 

What about the magellanic clouds? They're not much further away than a few milkyway diameters. The large one has maybe ten billion stars and the small one several hundred million stars. 

 

Then there's the globular clusters orbiting the milkyway and a few dwarf galaxies around the milky way. 

 

Only a little further (2,5 million lightyears) away we have the andromeda galaxy with maybe a trillion stars and the triangulum galaxy. 

 

Thats just the local group. 

 

With FTL and lets just go by the 2 billion year life span of the Reapers, the Milky way is within reach for a god AI, from probably trillions of galaxies with billions of stars and billions of planets. 

 

The number of reapers required and places needed to be searched grows exponentially. 

 

Unless we're betting that organic life will only evolve and attempt to develop AI in the milkyway and then we might as well just bet that the supposedly godlike powerfull and evil AI, that wants to conquer everything, just isn't possible. 

 

Which seems the most plausible. Since if it was possible, odds are, it would allready have been created somewhere in a universe with 100 billion galaxies of 100 billion stars across the 93 bilion lightyears of just the observable universe during the last 12 billion years and with immortality and ftl at it's command would have conquered most of it. 

[Farangbaa]

Yeah and all those planets have suitable conditions for life. The Reapers don't have to check everything and their knowledge of the galaxy will be vastly superior to us.

 

Anyone who picked up a textbook after 1920 or something could know that.

[78stonewobble]

Yeah and all those planets have suitable conditions for life. The Reapers don't have to check everything and their knowledge of the galaxy will be vastly superior to us.

 

Anyone who picked up a textbook after 1920 or something could know that.

 

I didn't say that all planets contained life, potentially alot of them can and you won't know unless you check em. 

 

I point out that there are so many galaxies, containing so many stars and planets and places where life can develop or hide and create god ai, that if you are attempting to prevent the creation of god ai, you'd have to search unimaginably many places. 

 

Searching and reaping ONE! galaxy, lackluster even, only prevents the creation of the evil god AI in 0,000000000001 percent of the

universe. 

 

As to the efficiency of this, imagining building 0,000000000001 percent of a seawall and see how well that keeps the water out. 

 

PS: The reapers certainly aren't perfect in their searching. The protheans left warnings and survived their cycle. Another species survived hiding from the reapers for 2 billion years. If the creation of god ai is as inevitable as the reapers and the catalyst would have us believe, it would have happened. Perhaps even right under their noses.

 

PPS: That our galaxy isn't the entire universe was suspected from 1920, allthough evidence was not published until 1924. Narrowing down the universe to the milkyway would actually be to ignore stuff after 1920-1924 and after.  

[Farangbaa]

That's ME4. Universal Reapers.

 

Badumtss.

 

But that's outside the scope of the Catalyst's problem. It's mandate is to preserve all life in the Galaxy. It doesn't care about the Universe. From his point of view he's solving the problem, altbeit acknowledging it's not perfect (anymore). Still a solution in his book.

 

And indeed the Reapers aren't perfect, if they were you didn't have a game to play. Everyone would just be zapped, kabooshed and kaplowed.

[78stonewobble]

That's ME4. Universal Reapers.

 

Badumtss.

 

But that's outside the scope of the Catalyst's problem. It's mandate is to preserve all life in the Galaxy. It doesn't care about the Universe. From his point of view he's solving the problem, altbeit acknowledging it's not perfect (anymore). Still a solution in his book.

 

And indeed the Reapers aren't perfect, if they were you didn't have a game to play. Everyone would just be zapped, kabooshed and kaplowed.

 

Which also doesn't make sense... To create enough reapers to reap the entire universe and then do it over billions of years represents such a waste of ressources and energy, that could have been used to sustain organic lives, that pretty much the only thing more costly in lives would be the "hypothetical" god ai, destroying the universe.

 

It's like wasting the majority of human lives on an endeavour to keep chimps from evolving and killing off a majority of humans. 

 

It's basically a Rube Goldberg scheme. 

 

The catalyst cannot preserve life in this galaxy, without searching the entire universe, for the god ai. If the supposed god ai can exist it is obviously powerfull enough to wipe out the reapers. 

 

Actually the only way to defend against something like that would be to create your own god ai first and make sure it's friendly. 

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Which also doesn't make sense... To create enough reapers to reap the entire universe and then do it over billions of years represents such a waste of ressources and energy, that could have been used to sustain organic lives, that pretty much the only thing more costly in lives would be the "hypothetical" god ai, destroying the universe.

 

It's like wasting the majority of human lives on an endeavour to keep chimps from evolving and killing off a majority of humans. 

 

It's basically a Rube Goldberg scheme. 

 

The catalyst cannot preserve life in this galaxy, without searching the entire universe, for the god ai. If the supposed god ai can exist it is obviously powerfull enough to wipe out the reapers. 

 

Actually the only way to defend against something like that would be to create your own god ai first and make sure it's friendly. 

 

The Reapers aren't interested in the rest of the universe. Their reason to be has always been centered around the galaxy alone. The rest of the universe does not concern them, most likely because they have no evidence of any organic nor synthetic life being there.

[KaiserShep]

Or it's possible that the reapers couldn't possibly set their interests beyond the Milky Way, what would likely be infinite space.

[78stonewobble]

The Reapers aren't interested in the rest of the universe. Their reason to be has always been centered around the galaxy alone. The rest of the universe does not concern them, most likely because they have no evidence of any organic nor synthetic life being there.

 

Lack of evidence is not a disproval. 

 

The mass effect universe shows us that life is pretty abundant. 

 

If the reapers ignore the rest of the universe their reason to exist is rendered 99,999999999 % moot. 

 

To handwave the rest of the universe away requires more ignorance or atleast suspension of disbelief from the viewer/reader/listener/player, than all the ignorance of all ignorant people thoughout the history of ignorant people combined. It's that big of an oversight. 

 

For starchild to just exclaim: I like turtles!... Would make more sense. 

[78stonewobble]

Or it's possible that the reapers couldn't possibly set their interests beyond the Milky Way, what would likely be infinite space.

 

True, but it does undermine their stated reason for existence, since that is an exercise in futility and either based on a faulty premise or a flat out lie. 

 

If the universe is truely infinite and the supposed evil god AI, who will destroy all organics, is possible, then it will be created somewhere and destroy all the organics. Perhaps not in the entire universe, which is infinite, but quite possibly within reach of the milky way, which kinda renders the reapings moot or nothing more than a delaying action against the inevitable or worse still. The existence of the reapers and their actions prevents us from creating an AI which would be able to counter the evil god AI. 

[KaiserShep]

Then that creates a bit of a dilemma. Does the Catalyst try to fulfill its mandate by focusing on one galaxy, or does it simply shut down and fuggetaboutit ?

[78stonewobble]

Then that creates a bit of a dilemma. Does the Catalyst try to fulfill its mandate by focusing on one galaxy, or does it simply shut down and fuggetaboutit ?

 

Now thats a good question... If I'd been in his shoes, I'd have picked forget about it and invent AI beer instead. 

[KaiserShep]

Bender approves.

[AlanC9]

And again, how is this not an argument against ME1 as well? That's also premised on the Reapers' ability to monitor and control the galaxy.

[Iakus]

And again, how is this not an argument against ME1 as well?

 

Mainly because in ME1, the Reapers' motives were still inscrutable.

[AlanC9]

But the argument is that the Reapers can't control the galaxy's technological development, right? That's the premise of ME1 whatever the motives are.

Oh, wait... we've switched premises. Now the problem is that the Reapers can only control one galaxy?

[78stonewobble]

But the argument is that the Reapers can't control the galaxy's technological development, right? That's the premise of ME1 whatever the motives are.

 

They can control the galaxy's technological development, to a certain degree. Enough to harvest sentient organics on a massive scale. 

 

Completely sufficient if the motive consists of "organics are tasty" or "we don't know what we're doing because we're crazy". 

 

EDIT: Another motive, which would fit the scope of their efforts, would be for them wanting to improve us, according to their definitions of improvement and just not caring about our feelings about it. 

 

As it turns out, their motive is to prevent a hypothetical godlike ai's creation, which changes what they're doing from sufficient to hopelessly ineffecient as to the point of being useless or counter productive. 

 

The three alternative motives I've mentioned doesn't require as complete a sanitization of the galaxy (and the rest of the universe) as the one we got does.

 

EDIT2: If they miss a few hold outs in the first 3 scenarios, they can just come back and finish the job. If they miss a few holdouts in the scenario we're given, they could potentially loose everything, organics and themselves, since that supposed ai must be more powerfull than them.

[AlanC9]

They can control the galaxy's technological development, to a certain degree. Enough to harvest sentient organics on a massive scale. 
 
Completely sufficient if the motive consists of "organics are tasty" or "we don't know what we're doing because we're crazy".

"To a certain degree"? Either they can keep organic civilizations under a chosen technological limit, or they can't. If they can't, they're toast, since sooner or later some society will surpass their tech. If they can, they can prevent any particular technology from being developed
 

EDIT: Another motive, which would fit the scope of their efforts, would be for them wanting to improve us, according to their definitions of improvement and just not caring about our feelings about it.

Yeah, this one could kinda work. It's not consistent with actually exterminating a lot of species, but this could be worked around easily enough, if it turned out that most of the time they simply bust species back to pre-agricultural conditions on their home planets. (The Protheans would be a rare exception that the Reapers had determined to have no further evolutionary potential, at which point they were repurposed into Collectors.) But the problem, again, is that letting a species develop starflight is counterproductive

[Iakus]

Yeah, this one could kinda work. It's not consistent with actually exterminating a lot of species, but this could be worked around easily enough, if it turned out that most of the time they simply bust species back to pre-agricultural conditions on their home planets. (The Protheans would be a rare exception that the Reapers had determined to have no further evolutionary potential, at which point they were repurposed into Collectors.) But the problem, again, is that letting a species develop starflight is counterproductive

 

It could make sense if they're waiting for the right species to come about.  Ones with the traits they want, or near enough that they could repurpose the species to suit their needs.

 

Of course, we're straying into XCom: Enemy Unknown territory here...

[78stonewobble]

"To a certain degree"? Either they can keep organic civilizations under a chosen technological limit, or they can't. If they can't, they're toast, since sooner or later some society will surpass their tech. If they can, they can prevent any particular technology from being developed
 

Yeah, this one could kinda work. It's not consistent with actually exterminating a lot of species, but this could be worked around easily enough, if it turned out that most of the time they simply bust species back to pre-agricultural conditions on their home planets. (The Protheans would be a rare exception that the Reapers had determined to have no further evolutionary potential, at which point they were repurposed into Collectors.) But the problem, again, is that letting a species develop starflight is counterproductive

 

I see your point, but there's a difference between keeping comparitively simple organic technology or even reaper technology equivalents at bay. Those would require a huge and noticeable build up, that the reapers can stop, when they choose to. 

 

Whereas developing the god AI could be, presumably, done on a single planet or a large enough ship ship hidden in trillions of places. It would then either be so powerfull that it mcguyvered a reaper killing device then and there or slink out the backdoor, travel to the next galaxy and having no moral inhibitions, conquer it, build whatever it needs to beat the reapers and return and wipe everything out. 

 

Or maybe it's just being developed in that next galaxy. 

 

In any case, being able to slap down the organics in this galaxy, due to numbers and/or technology is not sufficient to prevent the god ai from being created here or anywhere else within reach. 

 

PS: Actually, the leviathans could have beaten the reapers billions of years ago, if they had programmed a simple ai to go to andromeda and build enough autonomous ships to kill the reapers. If the reapers are only limited to the milky way that is. 

 

 

No, letting a species develop starflight is not necessarily counter-productive. 

 

If your ressource is sentient organics, more is better, that means it's preferable they spread out, rather then being limited to their homesystem. 

 

It's a gamble, because starflight means the ability to fight back, which presumably hasn't been a problem in 2 billion years.

 

However, given that there is a limit on ressources and you want to stretch them out, you also cannot let the sapient organics, consume too many ressources. 

 

It's like farming, you want enough food not to starve, but you also don't want to overfarm. 

[Reorte]

One galaxy is just about doable if you've got the power of the Reapers and the rate of civilisation advancement is sufficienty slow, AND when a species starts getting to a sufficiently advanced level in AI development it'll also advertise its presence across at least a few hundred light years. A relay network scattered that densely, which also monitors development, would do the job. You could also leave extra bits behind in systems you stumble across that look like they may develop, which is why there was a relay here with only a short hop to Arcturus.

 

Doesn't explain why they'd skulk around silently and let life get on with it for long periods though, instead of stamping out any development as soon as it appears. Relying on discovery and use of the Citadel is plain stupid.

[78stonewobble]

One galaxy is just about doable if you've got the power of the Reapers and the rate of civilisation advancement is sufficienty slow, AND when a species starts getting to a sufficiently advanced level in AI development it'll also advertise its presence across at least a few hundred light years. A relay network scattered that densely, which also monitors development, would do the job. You could also leave extra bits behind in systems you stumble across that look like they may develop, which is why there was a relay here with only a short hop to Arcturus.

 

Doesn't explain why they'd skulk around silently and let life get on with it for long periods though, instead of stamping out any development as soon as it appears. Relying on discovery and use of the Citadel is plain stupid.

 

Hmm... Would require around 58000 relays, if we assume a travel radius of 300 lightyears from each. That would be feasible, but that all species advertise their presence is a big assumption. You would be betting the whole plan on it. 

 

Atleast thresher maws are ingame presented as being able to spread from planet by planet via spores. Other life might be equally able to spread in this very low key fashion. 

 

You would need to effectively track every single spaceship in the galaxy and monitor each and every hiding spot thoroughly. Even if it's in an unassuming long period comet, a rogue planet or just a spacestation in empty space. 

 

The number of monitoring probes/stations required would be quite a bit higher. If they can scan thoroughly for 10 lightyears... around 800 million... If they can only scan thoroughly for 1 lightyear they would need like 1,9 trillion. 

 

... 

 

Probably doable by the reapers, but I don't believe they actually do that. If the net is that finely masked, then they probably have known where each and every prothean were hiding and would probably have found the leviathans as well. If not by direct observation, then by simply tracking the gaps someone would be making in the net to hide. And wouldn't the codex make reference to these advanced odd telescopy thingy mobobs found everywhere? 

 

...

 

Well the citadel is a convenient trap, but you are right that waiting that long makes little sense if the main objective is to prevent the creation of the god ai. 

[Iakus]

Hmm... Would require around 58000 relays, if we assume a travel radius of 300 lightyears from each. That would be feasible, but that all species advertise their presence is a big assumption. You would be betting the whole plan on it. 

 

 

That's just secondary relays.  Primary relays have a range measured in the thousands of light years.  With the limitation that they only link up to one other relay, rather than many.

[Farangbaa]

Doesn't explain why they'd skulk around silently and let life get on with it for long periods though, instead of stamping out any development as soon as it appears. Relying on discovery and use of the Citadel is plain stupid.

 

Because The Catalyst doesn't want to stop development at all, it wants to stop development past a certain point. Remember: it's designed by the Leviathan, who want 'tribute'. The Leviathan had no interest in stopping development, their only concern was that their thralls ended up dying past a certain point of development.

[AlanC9]

Hmm... Would require around 58000 relays, if we assume a travel radius of 300 lightyears from each. That would be feasible, but that all species advertise their presence is a big assumption. You would be betting the whole plan on it. 

Meaning that not all species would develop radio on their way to developing the mass effect? Or burn stuff for power generation? Or use artificial lighting outdoors on a large scale? Or activate the local mass relay when they find it?

.And wouldn't the codex make reference to these advanced odd telescopy thingy mobobs found everywhere? 

How would they be found? The chance of stumbling across one by accident would be preposterously low.