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[Obadiah]

@Hadeedak
I like the "special" aspect of Shepard not so much because his abilities, which are considerable, but because of the unwitting (or maybe intentional) influence he has with the Council, and all of the key players in different factions that come together for the war.

Plus it gives the character a bit of an insurgent quality. When the powers that be say it can't be done, that the Krogan or Geth would never help, Shepard says, "Y'know... I'm on pretty good terms with the Krogan leader, actually participated in a Right of Adulthood, and... er... I've also worked with the Geth."

Leadership: "Wait... wut?"

[AlanC9]

1) I'd say that there's a certain-level going into this of the suspension of disbelief. For me (and most others it seems), ME1 and ME2 were able to hold onto this while ME3 was not. That's where we're (you and I) going to differ. To you the entire trilogy had narrative flaws and each game was guilty of flaws and the series was inherently cracked, so to speak. While I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, I do feel that most of the problems came to breach with ME3. I do believe ME3 is the offending title here that takes the flaws of the franchise to a higher level, and, unlike you (and I'm not being a jerkass about it), I think ME3 alone is the cause of that. Not ME2 or ME1. IMO, ME3 is responsible for its own flaws, not built on the ones brought up in the other two titles. It's why I hold ME1 and especially ME2 on a higher pedestal than ME3.

Which doesn't explain why ME3's narrative flaws are worse than ME1's. Not a question for dreamgazer or me, since we don't think there's any difference in this aspect. I think Staff Lt. Alenko might have been on the right track here.

[Hadeedak]

It's not to my tastes, but I get that other people like different things. 

 

There's a lot of points in the series where I wish I could crank it down a notch and not have Shepard do all the things. I do understand things happening off-screen (see, the awesome miracle at Palaven) are less interesting. I liked being a Spectre. I'm not so sure about being the only ray of light, ect, ect.

[dreamgazer]

1) I'd say that there's a certain-level going into this of the suspension of disbelief. For me (and most others it seems), ME1 and ME2 were able to hold onto this while ME3 was not. That's where we're (you and I) going to differ. To you the entire trilogy had narrative flaws and each game was guilty of flaws and the series was inherently cracked, so to speak. While I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, I do feel that most of the problems came to breach with ME3. I do believe ME3 is the offending title here that takes the flaws of the franchise to a higher level, and, unlike you (and I'm not being a jerkass about it), I think ME3 alone is the cause of that. Not ME2 or ME1. IMO, ME3 is responsible for its own flaws, not built on the ones brought up in the other two titles. It's why I hold ME1 and especially ME2 on a higher pedestal than ME3.

 

It's a shame, because there's a lot of suspending of disbelief required in the first two games.  A LOT.

 

Just think about where the series would be without the cipher, the telepathic plant, the still-active and lore-bending Conduit, the magical rebooting of Shepard's brain in Lazarus, and "absorbs the essence of organics", among other things. 

 

But I do agree: each game is responsible for its own faults, and they're all significantly flawed and contrived.

[dreamgazer]

Which doesn't explain why ME3's narrative flaws are worse than ME1's. Not a question for dreamgazer or me, since we don't think there's any difference in this aspect. I think Staff Lt. Alenko might have been on the right track here.

 

I think ME3 suffers more than ME1, I really do, but the disparity between the two is way, way exaggerated by some. 

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

You accepted space magic in the first and second game, though.

 

 

No I did not. Putting words or intentions in my mouth does changes nothing. Also, MassivelyEffective has cleaned up the subject with the post you answered here:

 

 

It's a shame, because there's a lot of suspending of disbelief required in the first two games.  A LOT.

 

Just think about where the series would be without the cipher, the telepathic plant, the still-active and lore-bending Conduit, the magical rebooting of Shepard's brain in Lazarus, and "absorbs the essence of organics", among other things. 

 

But I do agree: each game is responsible for its own faults, and they're all significantly flawed and contrived.

 

Okay, what's wrong with the Conduit or the Cipher now?

 

To be frank, that's poor writing and a poor idea. 

 

The Reapers are sufficiently advanced enough, and we sufficiently unsophisticated enough, that no plan or path would be effective in any way. There are no weapons or strategies that we could use that the Reapers wouldn't immediately and overwhelmingly counter. 

 

While true about the defense, what is also true is that we also don't have everything. Anything that can get through their defenses is far beyond our technology and capability. For all intents and purposes, they are nearly invincible to what we have at our disposal beyond a super weapon. The only thing the Reapers can't take into account is a super weapon. That's your plan.

 

 

An with this, I disagree. Based on ME1 and ME2, we don't know exactly how powerful the Reapers actually are and with careful planning and resourcefulness, a tactic can be found against them or a vulnerability to exploit. It should be hard, sure, but it's definitely possible.

[Hadeedak]

I think you're not going to get any empirical answers, since most everyone's talking about the feeling they get from the game. I felt really good through most of ME3 (there were a few moments where I was like NO WHAT NO), so I like the game in general.

 

SPEAKING OF FIXING ME3. I would have given my left eyetooth to play up Shepard's cyborg nature. My canon had all the upgrades to the body -- boneweave, skinweave, muscle, on top of all the Cerberus implants. And I thought that was incredibly interesting. I loved when Shepard got hacked in Overlord.

 

It really merited more than a few lines in ME2 and ME3. And yes, I know not everyone got all the sweet upgrades, but even the least modified Shepard had a few extra parts, as exhibited by the renegade scarring and the bits grafted onto Shepard's bones in the ME2 opening.

[AlanC9]

Honestly, I can see the point about ME3 putting the stuff front-and-center in a way that ME1 didn't. Tali's recording is silly, but we're past it before you need to think about it, and on to the next thing.

[Iakus]

To be frank, that's poor writing and a poor idea. 

 

The Reapers are sufficiently advanced enough, and we sufficiently unsophisticated enough, that no plan or path would be effective in any way. There are no weapons or strategies that we could use that the Reapers wouldn't immediately and overwhelmingly counter. 

 

While true about the defense, what is also true is that we also don't have everything. Anything that can get through their defenses is far beyond our technology and capability. For all intents and purposes, they are nearly invincible to what we have at our disposal beyond a super weapon. The only thing the Reapers can't take into account is a super weapon. That's your plan.

 

It would be a long, hard war, yes.  But their Reapers cannot be easily replaced.  Every one that gets destroyed diminishes them.  Thus why I think it would have made more sense to reduce their numbers to just a few dozen/hundred

 

As for defenses, the only significant defense the Reapers seem to have are their kinetic barriers.  They are entirely dependent on mass effect fields, even to land on planets (the codex says thier barriers are much weaker on the ground, because they have to devote more energy to keep from being crushed in gravity wells)

 

SO, find weapons that weaken kinetic barriers.  Or get around them.  Directed energy weapons.  Nukes.  Overload-style weapons.

 

This is what p*sses me off about the galaxy doing nothing through ME2.  They could have been working on stuff like this after the Battle of the Citadel, instead of thermal clips. 

 

I'd say if you have to depend on incomplete plans for a superweapon you just happen to find while the Reapers are invading your homeworld, you have already failed.

[AlanC9]

An with this, I disagree. Based on ME1 and ME2, we don't know exactly how powerful the Reapers actually are and with careful planning and resourcefulness, a tactic can be found against them or a vulnerability to exploit. It should be hard, sure, but it's definitely possible.

You mean, after watching one Reaper shrug off the firepower of the 5th fleet for.... half an hour? That doesn't tell us exactly how much tougher they are, of course, since we don't know how many more hours Sovereign would have lasted

And there's sone hidden design flaw that nobody else found in any other cycle?

[SporkFu]

I think you're not going to get any empirical answers, since most everyone's talking about the feeling they get from the game. I felt really good through most of ME3 (there were a few moments where I was like NO WHAT NO), so I like the game in general.

 

SPEAKING OF FIXING ME3. I would have given my left eyetooth to play up Shepard's cyborg nature. My canon had all the upgrades to the body -- boneweave, skinweave, muscle, on top of all the Cerberus implants. And I thought that was incredibly interesting. I loved when Shepard got hacked in Overlord.

 

It really merited more than a few lines in ME2 and ME3. And yes, I know not everyone got all the sweet upgrades, but even the least modified Shepard had a few extra parts, as exhibited by the renegade scarring and the bits grafted onto Shepard's bones in the ME2 opening.

Interesting. Would have given some depth to the times shep questions -- or is questioned about -- who he really is, eg: Cronos Station watching the project Lazarus vids and the VS on Mars. Plus, the organic vs synthetic debates between adams and chakwas, and adams and donnelly. Yeah I could go for that. 

[dreamgazer]

No I did not. Putting words or intentions in my mouth does changes nothing. 

 

Okay, what's wrong with the Conduit or the Cipher now?

 

Cipher: Grants Shepard the collective awareness of the Protheans by magically rearranging his/her brain, already filled with the beacon's message. Necessary Space Magic, delivered secondhand from an ancient sentient plant. 

 

Conduit: Defies how relays actually operate, and conveniently stays active right until Shepard and Co. drive through it. Nothing but a MacGuffin until then, then transforms into a lore-bending plot fixer. 

[Iakus]

 

 

Conduit: Defies how relays actually operate, and conveniently stays active right until Shepard and Co. drive through it. Nothing but a MacGuffin until then, then transforms into a lore-bending plot fixer. 

 

How does it not function like a primary relay in lore?

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

You mean, after watching one Reaper shrug off the firepower of the 5th fleet for.... half an hour? That doesn't tell us exactly how much tougher they are, of course, since we don't know how many more hours Sovereign would have lasted

And there's sone hidden design flaw that nobody else found in any other cycle?

 

Well, I saw about 5 cruisers firing at Sovereign. Cruisers. I mean, the PFI* of spaceships. Where's the rest of the fleet? Either they were busy holding off geth ships, or there was some heavy gameplay and story segregation going on in that scene.

 

And besides, after Sovereign's shield was gone, it was gutted with one shot from the Normandy.

 

That plus Thanix cannons, plus cyberwarfare, plus fighting them planetside where their mass effect cores are busy generating drive and their shields are weaker, plus destroying Reaper cores with fighters, Death Star style... Possibilities are endless.

 

And yeah, maybe not one hidden design flaw but generally more information on Reapers than anyone ever had. Which we do have, thanks to Shepard and his endevours in previous games.

 

 

*Poor, Flppin' Infantry

 

I'd say if you have to depend on incomplete plans for a superweapon you just happen to find while the Reapers are invading your homeworld, you have already failed.

 

This.

[Deathsaurer]

It would be a long, hard war, yes.  But their Reapers cannot be easily replaced.  Every one that gets destroyed diminishes them.  Thus why I think it would have made more sense to reduce their numbers to just a few dozen/hundred

 

As for defenses, the only significant defense the Reapers seem to have are their kinetic barriers.  They are entirely dependent on mass effect fields, even to land on planets (the codex says thier barriers are much weaker on the ground, because they have to devote more energy to keep from being crushed in gravity wells)

 

SO, find weapons that weaken kinetic barriers.  Or get around them.  Directed energy weapons.  Nukes.  Overload-style weapons.

 

A few dozen ships hardly constitutes a "galactic invasion fleet" and really can't be taken seriously as a threat. A few hundred is pushing it since they'd only be able to hit 1 or 2 planets at a time leaving them easy targets to get ganged up on. They could, if they felt like it, make more Reapers out of AIs they program themselves or drones. They don't actually require organics at all. That they base their fleet around the harvest is already straining logic very heavily. Directed energy weapons are a no go because the freaking Reapers can't get them to a practical size to mount on themselves unless we think they're really really stupid. Nukes have long been abandoned in space combat. 2 years isn't enough time to radically restructure everyones military doctrine to include them again and make a feasible delivery system. Really, if it was possibly in the setting you'd think someone would have done it long ago for a tactical advantage. And there are already weapons that disrupt barriers. Apparently they don't get the chance to be used very often.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Cipher: Grants Shepard the collective awareness of the Protheans by magically rearranging his/her brain, already filled with the beacon's message. Necessary Space Magic, delivered secondhand from an ancient sentient plant. 

 

Conduit: Defies how relays actually operate, and conveniently stays active right until Shepard and Co. drive through it. Nothing but a MacGuffin until then, then transforms into a lore-bending plot fixer. 

 

I suppose... If you mean to deconstruct absolutely everything. Especially the Conduit doesn't deserve this treatment IMO; it was a prototype mass relay built by the Protheans who have just discovered the secrets of relay technology. Next thing you'll be saying Element Zero cannot possibly work.

[dreamgazer]

How does it not function like a primary relay in lore?

 

It has no availability to properly line up with the receiving relay (it's static, and Ilos orbits), the Mako can't deliver any information about its size or weight going through it, and the Mako zips through the relay with just enough propulsion to land relatively gently on its side and has no trouble getting through the infrastructure of the Citadel itself.

 

It's a teleportation device instead of a relay, and a plot-sensitive one at that.

[Iakus]

A 

 

A few dozen ships hardly constitutes a "galactic invasion fleet" and really can't be taken seriously as a threat. A few hundred is pushing it since they'd only be able to hit 1 or 2 planets at a time leaving them easy targets to get ganged up on. They could, if they felt like it, make more Reapers out of AIs they program themselves or drones. They don't actually require organics at all. That they base their fleet around the harvest is already straining logic very heavily. Directed energy weapons are a no go because the freaking Reapers can't get them to a practical size to mount on themselves unless we think they're really really stupid. Nukes have long been abandoned in space combat. 2 years isn't enough time to radically restructure everyones military doctrine to include them again and make a feasible delivery system. Really, if it was possibly in the setting you'd think someone would have done it long ago for a tactical advantage. And there are already weapons that disrupt barriers. Apparently they don't get the chance to be used very often.

A few dozen ships of Sovereign's strength can easily be an invasion fleet if they control the relay network, which has always been part of the plan.

 

I suppose they could create drones, but they'd have to program and build them first, which takes time and they wouldn't be as effective as Reapers.

 

Directed energy weapons and nukes aren't used because the Reapers have been steering people to use mass effect technology, which they are masters of.

 

But nuclear weapons and lasers would be very useful against kinetic barriers because they'd pass right through them like they weren't even there.

[dreamgazer]

I suppose... If you mean to deconstruct absolutely everything. Especially the Conduit doesn't deserve this treatment IMO; it was a prototype mass relay built by the Protheans who have just discovered the secrets of relay technology. Next thing you'll be saying Element Zero cannot possibly work.

 

Nope, just pointing out the issues with the Conduit in terms of ME1's lore, on top of Shepard trusting a random AI of its destination.  EEZO is EEZO. 

 

Deconstruction and justification of plot elements are parts of suspension of disbelief, and both ME1 and ME2 have plenty of issues. 

[Deathsaurer]

 

That plus Thanix cannons, plus cyberwarfare, plus fighting them planetside where their mass effect cores are busy generating drive and their shields are weaker, plus destroying Reaper cores with fighters, Death Star style... Possibilities are endless.

The only thing legitimate on that list, and something that does happen off screen, is fighting them on the ground. The cannon is a cheap knock off of their main gun, the entire Geth race couldn't understand a single thought from a Reaper which leaves us lucky they didn't hack everything in sight, and attacking the cores Death Star style? Dude, the Death Star is the size of a small moon. The Reapers aren't big enough for that. Like at all. It takes like maybe a second to cover their entire length in the cut scenes. Or are you suggesting a ridiculous thermal exhaust port? Please tell me you're not.

 

 

 

A few dozen ships of Sovereign's strength can easily be an invasion fleet if they control the relay network, which has always been part of the plan.

 

I suppose they could create drones, but they'd have to program and build them first, which takes time and they wouldn't be as effective as Reapers.

 

Directed energy weapons and nukes aren't used because the Reapers have been steering people to use mass effect technology, which they are masters of.

 

But nuclear weapons and lasers would be very useful against kinetic barriers because they'd pass right through them like they weren't even there.

I disagree a few dozen ships would count as a "galactic invasion fleet" which are I remind you the exact words Vigil used to describe them. The drone thing was just to illustrate a point. Their fleet organization as depicted in Mass Effect strains credibility for a multitude of reasons. They're already being dumbed down to a ridiculous extreme just using ships built from the races they harvest. I personally go meh whatever because the Reapers are just stupid period in the plot and I believe they being what they are is the source of many of the series problems. Directed energy weapons are used for wait for it... close range combat and anti missile defense. Not even the Reapers have made practical anti ship weapons. The closest thing we see is that big honking cannon on the destroyer. It's ridiculous to think that is a practical avenue the way the series is structured. I will say nukes could be valid if there was more time to bother with making them work. 2 years just isn't enough time to completely restructure the way everyone fights wars and the timeline for the games is another problem with the series IMO. But you also have to consider how the Reapers might behave if they are actually loosing because anything we can make they can make bigger. And that to me is the ultimate rub.

[wolfhowwl]

It's not surprising that Mass Effect 3 was so epically bad when ME2 did so much to set it up for failure.

 

Instead of building alliances you spend the entire game gallivanting around with universally loathed terrorists because a certain writer was overly enamored with his own creation.

 

To make Cerberus look better, ME2 goes out of its way to destroy any hope of progress against the Reapers with its infamous "ah yes Reapers" moment that has the Council and Alliance ignoring the threat (again).

 

A large party is introduced and then made killable with zero thought about wherever BioWare would have the resources to deal with that (they didn't).

 

The game provided very little payoff for choices from ME1 instead piling on its own variables leaving it all for the third game to resolve.

 

Additional information about the genophage, geth, and Cerberus is presented but their resolution is left for ME3.

 

The central narrative is not advanced at all. We ran some errands, defeated a sideshow enemy, and did nothing for the overall conflict.

 

ME3 had to simultaneously mount our defense and offense against the Reapers, find a way to defeat them, solve the galaxy's problems, and deal with every choice made in the trilogy. No wonder it failed.

[themikefest]

I would've just made ME3 building alliances for the upcoming war with the reapers and have ME4 be the actual war against the reapers.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

The only thing legitimate on that list, and something that does happen off screen, is fighting them on the ground. The cannon is a cheap knock off of their main gun, the entire Geth race couldn't understand a single thought from a Reaper which leaves us lucky they didn't hack everything in sight, and attacking the cores Death Star style? Dude, the Death Star is the size of a small moon. The Reapers aren't big enough for that. Like at all. It takes like maybe a second to cover their entire length in the cut scenes. Or are you suggesting a ridiculous thermal exhaust port? Please tell me you're not.

 

No, I'm suggesting for example attacking the Reaper with cyberwarfare, which is legitimate since it's mentioned by EDI in ME2, to open up its structures and then having a small nimble aircraft fly in and blasting the Reaper's core. What's wrong with that. It could be insanely hard to get the cyberwarfare algorithms to work, it could take the whole game in fact. Also, what's wrong with thanix cannons?

[Deathsaurer]

The problem with that is it requires hacking a more advanced AI with a less advanced AI without them hacking you and flying a fighter through a hull they're clear in less than a second and they have to do this without crashing into anything in this ridiculously small space. If you can make it into them like that you've got much better ways to deal with them than an utterly ridiculous rule of cool sequence like that. Kamikaze with nukes would make more sense which is closer to what Iakus wanted to see. And like I said the thannix cannon is simply a watered down version of their main gun. That doesn't give any advantage at all.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

The problem with that is it requite hacking a more advanced AI with a less advanced AI without them hacking you and flying a fighter through a hull they're clear in less than a second and they have to do this without crashing into anything in this ridiculously small space. If you can make it into them like that you've got much better ways to deal with them than an utterly ridiculous rule of cool sequence like that. Kamikaze with nukes would make more sense which is closer to what Iakus wanted to see. And like I said the thannix cannon is simply a watered down version of their main gun. That doesn't give any advantage at all.

 

Why? We have no pre-"ME3" data on how a thanix cannon affects a Reaper. It might as well ignore their shields and do massive damage.