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I am having trouble getting my head around the moral implications of the Pro-Templar ending


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#26
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I just think siding with the Templars has nothing to do with the Chantry. It's all about rage and disgust with magic. Which is not quite the same thing. The only person who should be siding with them is someone as fed up or almost as fed up as Meredith. So fed up that you see this as your "big chance" to take out frustrations on them. A window of opportunity to express rage. Even though Anders is the real culprit. Either that, or someone who sees themselves like Qunari "Arvvarad" (or however you spell it). Someone who's far more of a hardass about magic than the average templar is.

 

I'd like to side with the Templars in some playthroughs, but the more I think about DA2, I'm not really doing that. Hopefully I'll get to actually represent Chantry beliefs in the next game.



#27
Dean_the_Young

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Which chantry beliefs do you have in mind? On BSN that can mean anything from 'well meaning but culturally tainted sentiment' to 'burn the heretics!'



#28
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Which chantry beliefs do you have in mind? On BSN that can mean anything from 'well meaning but culturally tainted sentiment' to 'burn the heretics!'

 

I'm talking about the Chantry that actually created the Circles, that saw good in magic, that saw mages as one part of the equation to work together and combat demons. The Chantry that Elthina talks about.. the one that isn't  a "domineering father, always with a whip in hand". The Chantry that Gaider mentions in this quote:

 

"The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity."

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 

The Templars of Kirkwall, otoh, are ****** crazy. Like the burning/raging Templars in the Fade levels during DAO. They're too angry for their own good.

 

That isn't to say there isn't good reason for some of their anger, but that's no way to run things.



#29
KaiserShep

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Since it's not your decision whether they'll die or not, that's not quite the choice facing you. You can aid or your can oppose the massacre, but you can't prevent it.


I never said that it was my decision if they die or not, but I do have to decide whether or not they deserve it. That many of them die regardless doesn't really matter.

#30
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As far any outcomes go, it doesn't matter what you choose, except to your own conscience. Unfortunately, it's only about you yourself can live with.

 

No one even knows what the hell happens by the time Cassandra interrogates Varric. Just that "something happened".



#31
Dean_the_Young

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I never said that it was my decision if they die or not, but I do have to decide whether or not they deserve it. That many of them die regardless doesn't really matter.

 

Suit yourself- to me, 'deserve' is beside the point when something is going to happen regardless. No one 'deserves' a disaster, but when you can see one coming it's usually more helpful to plan on a basis of consequence than moral merit of the victim. The victim will be the victim whether they deserve it or not.

 

Which isn't to say that there's no point or basis to fight the inevitable anyway. Practical efforts can have long-term consequences even in the face of short-term irrelevance, while even the prospect of short term marginal gains can be enough for satisfaction. No one 'deserves' a flood, but that doesn't mean getting out and piling sand bags can't be worth it to mitigate it just a little.



#32
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Suit yourself- to me, 'deserve' is beside the point when something is going to happen regardless. No one 'deserves' a disaster, but when you can see one coming it's usually more helpful to plan on a basis of consequence than moral merit.

 

Which isn't to say that there's no point or basis to fight the inevitable anyway. Practical efforts can have long-term consequences even in the face of short-term irrelevance. No one 'deserves' a flood, but that doesn't mean getting out and piling sand bags can't be worth it to mitigate it just a little.

 

All of it leads to bad consequences. Like Varric says in the beginning.. "The Chantry has fallen to pieces". That includes free mages and rogue Templars. BOTH of these groups need to be kept in check. Not just mages.



#33
Dean_the_Young

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All of it leads to bad consequences. Like Varric says in the beginning.. "The Chantry has fallen to pieces". That includes free mages and rogue Templars. BOTH of these groups need to be kept in check. Not just mages.

 

Sure. One of the reasons one of my my pro-Templar Hawkes sided with the Mages at the end was because, well, they thought Meredith's annullment was being Bad Templar. The goal wasn't 'prevent the massacre' or 'save a majority of the mages': the more realistic goals was 'be a symbol of fighting the error,' with a bit of a hope (but not expectation) of 'take down that crazy ******' for good measure.

 

Make no mistake- I personally favor siding against Meredith. I can understand and recognize as legitimate various reasons to go along with it without holding them paramount.



#34
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Sure. One of the reasons one of my my pro-Templar Hawkes sided with the Mages at the end was because, well, they thought Meredith's annullment was being Bad Templar. The goal wasn't 'prevent the massacre' or 'save a majority of the mages': the more realistic goals was 'be a symbol of fighting the error,' with a bit of a hope (but not expectation) of 'take down that crazy ******' for good measure.

 

Make no mistake- I personally favor siding against Meredith. I can understand and recognize as legitimate various reasons to go along with it without holding them paramount.

 

Yeah, I've played somewhat along the same lines before (more or less). In fact, I might feel the most comfortable this way. Being fairly pro-Templar the majority of the game, but drawing a line at the Last Straw. I'm not comfortable just freeing mages over and over again and behaving like Anders' clone or something. I don't like the majority of Kirkwall's mages, even when playing a mage.



#35
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Yeah, I've played somewhat along the same lines before (more or less). In fact, I might feel the most comfortable this way. Being fairly pro-Templar the majority of the game, but drawing a line at the Last Straw.

 

I think it works well for a more ambiguous view of Hawke. You can be the radical revolutionary Anders wants you to be, or you can be the 'good Templar' who protects the Mages from others as much as vice versa.

 

Of course, I think it's also amusingly likely that mage revolutionaries will twist Hawke's actions and reputations in ways that benefit them even if it's not true. Behold, your Good Templar Hawke is now hero of the revolution. Hooray!

 

(And if they come around to disagree, well... revolutions need their martyrs.)



#36
Elhanan

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While my Templar Hawke was no zealot, or fan of most of the Kirkwall leadership, he had witnessed the danger that the Circle mages posed to themselves and others without protection (and Yeah; that is the way he saw it, especially because of sis). Once the demons were vanquished, and order restored to the city, he was content to take a leadership role for as long as viable.


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#37
teh DRUMPf!!

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I just think siding with the Templars has nothing to do with the Chantry. It's all about rage and disgust with magic. Which is not quite the same thing. The only person who should be siding with them is someone as fed up or almost as fed up as Meredith. So fed up that you see this as your "big chance" to take out frustrations on them. A window of opportunity to express rage. Even though Anders is the real culprit. Either that, or someone who sees themselves like Qunari "Arvvarad" (or however you spell it). Someone who's far more of a hardass about magic than the average templar is.

 

I'd like to side with the Templars in some playthroughs, but the more I think about DA2, I'm not really doing that. Hopefully I'll get to actually represent Chantry beliefs in the next game.

 

I am actually pretty pro-mage, myself, in the sense that I think mages should be able to have more freedoms. That does not mean I'm against the securities in place against the dangers of magic, however. I side with the Templars since Kirkwall has a very real problem with mage corruption. In Act 3, it's truly out-of-hand. Templars are there for that reason, and said problem is only going to get worse by getting in their way and killing them IMO. On top of that, Best Served Cold proves that the Circle is not free of corruption (Grace has basically gone down Uldred's path, and many from both sides followed). The primary defense against bad mages is, well, Templars. Again, it doesn't seem wise to weaken the 'Order at a time like that.

 

There is still some silver lining here for mages, though. Extremists like Anders are useful in scaring people away from their extreme positions, and bringing them together to compromise between the most reasonable ones. Some good can still come of this.



#38
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I am actually pretty pro-mage, myself, in the sense that I think mages should be able to have more freedoms. That does not mean I'm against the securities in place against the dangers of magic, however. I side with the Templars since Kirkwall has a very real problem with mage corruption. In Act 3, it's truly out-of-hand. Templars are there for that reason, and said problem is only going to get worse by getting in their way and killing them IMO. On top of that, Best Served Cold proves that the Circle is not free of corruption (Grace has basically gone down Uldred's path, and many from both sides followed). The primary defense against bad mages is, well, Templars. Again, it doesn't seem wise to weaken the 'Order at a time like that.

 

There is still some silver lining here for mages, though. Extremists like Anders are useful in scaring people away from their extreme positions, and bringing them together to compromise between the most reasonable ones. Some good can still come of this.

 

I don't disagree it's bad. It's just the specific situation and the timing that's all off. It's Anders' crime, and Orsino finally asks to be locked up and that they could search the tower. Meredith was still sane enough to say his suggestion was "Commendable", but she insisted too late. That's the insanity coming out. Way too many are going to die, even if they plead surrender, just because of her whims. I don't think I'm doing the Chantry or Templars any favors by siding with that. If anything, I feel like I'm revolutionizing the Templars by siding with them. Taking them to greater extremes. Just as much as siding with mages feels like revolution. Except in this case, I'm turning the Chantry into the Qun.



#39
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I don't disagree it's bad. It's just the specific situation and the timing that's all off. It's Anders' crime, and Orsino finally asks to be locked up and that they could search the tower. Meredith was still sane enough to say his suggestion was "Commendable", but she insisted too late. That's the insanity coming out. Way too many are going to die, even if they plead surrender, just because of her whims. I don't think I'm doing the Chantry or Templars any favors by siding with that. If anything, I feel like I'm revolutionizing the Templars by siding with them. Taking them to greater extremes. Just as much as siding with mages feels like revolution. Except in this case, I'm turning the Chantry into the Qun.

 

I actually agree that Meredith's de-facto rule in Kirkwall is a problem, one that my Hawke works to remove before The Last Straw. Just think the mages are a bigger issue. Meredith can be dealt with later. Her decision to annul the Circle was right, for the wrong reasons.



#40
TheWhitefire

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Orsino was funding a blood mage serial killer in Act 2. That's 3 years before the annullment. His letter showed clear support. His argument that "I was trying to hide it so we wouldn't look bad" is an excuse. Kirwall is swarming with loose demons, abominations, and psycho-crazy blood mages. Blood mages are practically coming out of the woodwork in that city. The Circle is completely and utterly corrupted in that city.

 

And this is coming from someone who normally tries to support the mages. There really are no likable sides in Dragon Age 2. As someone said in one interview, Dragon Age 2 is the game where you get reasons you shouldn't support either side. DA:I is going to be the game where we, hopefully, see reasons too support either side. Evangeline, the Templar in Asunder, is my favourite reason for supporting Mages and rebuilding the circle. Cullen at the end of DA2 also provides a pretty solid argument once he realizes just how corrupt his own order has become. I actually get a good sense that Cullen is genuinely concerned with the direction the Templars take in DA2, despite what he went through in DA:O. If you do a mage playthrough in DA:O, Cullen actually seems quite friendly towards mages in the Origin. He's not a bad guy, but I think his voice is quite powerless next to Meredith.

 

But even Meredith can't fully be blamed for her actions. The red lyrium idol she had crafted into a sword clearly had some detrimental effects on her psyche. Act 1 and Act 2 Meredith is usually quite a reasonable person, trying to do the best job she can in a city that is completely swarming with blood mages.


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#41
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I can't use the "Orsino knew Quintin" excuse, because it's meta-gamey. I had no clue who "O" was until Orsino himself finally admitted it. Which was long after I was trying to defend the Circle.

 

Of course, it's different for anyone who already guessed it. But I failed to.


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#42
KaiserShep

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^In fairness, the fact that it originates from the Circle at all warrants suspicion. The thing that bugs me about this is that you can't follow up on that letter, which any normal person would have, especially if it's regarding the very recent murder of a loved one. In fact, now that Hawke is part of the city's nobility, he/she could have sought an audience with the Knight-Commander regarding a possible accomplice of a serial killer within the Circle. I'd seek to have that place turned upside down to know the truth, and I wouldn't relent until not a single stone was left unturned. If Bethany is in the Circle, she would definitely have helped.


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#43
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I'm suspicious of the Circle too. And you can tell Orsino to just let her search. At the beginning of the Last Straw.

 

That's when Anders walks in and "destroys any compromise...because there can't be compromise."

 

Bastard.

 

Then Orsino himself begs Meredith that he'll let her search.. but she's determined to just kill everyone now. I can't side with her for that alone. I mean, if I really put myself in Hawke's shoes there, then that's just crazy.

 

edit: To be honest, I've displayed this level of injustice myself. I know what it's like to hate someone.. and then look for any excuse, any small reason to associate them with a bad situation, and then kick their ass the minute I can justify it.

 

It's hate. Not justice. I'm ashamed that I've stooped that low myself, but that's the kind of the character she is.



#44
Elite Midget

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Simple, if you help the Templars than you will have greater control of the situation and can possibly save more lives and minimize damage. The Templars also have a deep respect for Hawke if you fight with them and those like Cullen don't approve of the massacre of Mages that refuse to fight. They even choose Hawke, if you tell them to spare Mages that surrender, over Meredith despite the fact that Meredith should have power over the Templars and not you as you hold no position within their order.

 

Not to mention that helping the Templars could help dissuade a Holy War or calls for a March upon Kirkwall. You also get to rule Kirkwall for a bit so you can set things right since after DAII no one has the amount of political and public support that Hawke has within Kirkwall.

 

While if you side with the Mages than there no chances open to save surrendering Mages and all of the Mages end up getting slaughtered anyway but the lucky few that get to run for the rest of their lives as hunted apostates! Kirkwall is also reduced to ruins with no one strong enough to lead them as they're divided and no one has the strength or pull that Hawke has within Kirkwall following DAII events. 

 

It's also the duty of the Champion to pursue only the paths that are in best interests of Kirkwall.

 

The Blood Mage issue had also grown tremendously over the years and Mages are actively summoning Demons within the streets of Kirkwall and committing mass murders. Not to mention that there were  those plotting to take power unlawfully, and possibly murder Meredith without putting her on trial, thus making them no better than Meredith in that regard.

 

Sure, not all Mages are Blood Mages but by the end of DAII a large portion of them had given in to the temptation as many try to kill you with Blood Magic. Only those that didn't succumb to Blood Magic try to surrender to you and you can overule Meredith and have their lives spared. Whether those that did succumb to Blood Magic did so because of Meredith or not is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that there are masses of angered Blood Mages who're all huge threats to Kirkwall and they had to be put down as they were literally tearing the city apart and doing far more damage than the Templars ever did.

 

Besides, Orsino could have surrendered. If he and the Mages surrendered without a fight than Meredith would lose support and there's no way the Templars like Cullen would stand for mass executions of Mages who aren't resisting. Meredith insisting it be done anyway would cause Cullen to try and relieve her of her command and it would also give credit to the many rumors that Meredith had gone insane. Than of course Meredith would resist and die to Hawke.

 

Orsino's hands weren't clean either, he kept reports of Blood Mages and Blood Magic to himself because he cared more about image than what was right. Keeping those secrets only served to cause Meredith to feel that she was right in her actions and fueled her fears that of all the Mages of the circle practiced Blood Magic which was augmented by the idol which she had for years. Not to mention that Orsino encouraged and supported the research of the man who murdered your mother. Had Orsino done his duty than your mother wouldn't have died nor would those other women. Yet once again he chose image over doing the right thing and lives were lost because of him.

 

Orsino also had strong evidence and even suspicions that quite a few of the Mages in the Circle were practicing Blood Magic and quite a few were sneaking out of the Circle for unknown and suspicious reasons. He chose to keep this to himself because all he cared about was image and he refused to believe that the Circle was tainted from within after all despite the fact that Hawke reports multiple times of encountering said Blood Mages.



#45
MagicalMaster

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Besides, Orsino could have surrendered. If he and the Mages surrendered without a fight than Meredith would lose support and there's no way the Templars like Cullen would stand for mass executions of Mages who aren't resisting

 

He tried.  Even offered to let Meredith lock all the mages up and offered help Meredith search the tower for blood magic or other problems.

Meredith refused and said all the mages would die.  And then the Templars attacked.

 

So, uh, that kind of shoots your theory to pieces.



#46
blaidfiste

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With Elthina gone, Meredith is the law.  

 

There's a potential for many more innocent casualties if you support the mages, defeat Meredith and an Exalted March is called against Kirkwall.     



#47
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He tried.  Even offered to let Meredith lock all the mages up and offered help Meredith search the tower for blood magic or other problems.

Meredith refused and said all the mages would die.  And then the Templars attacked.

 

So, uh, that kind of shoots your theory to pieces.

 

No he didn't, when Meredith told him, after the RoA was already utilized, that she would only entertain a surrender Orsino didn't accept it and kept arguing with her to remove the RoA even after she explained why she wouldn't. A full on surrender by the Mages would have killed Meredith's position as the Templars were already questioning the RoA and if the Mages all surrendered en-masse than they wouldn't allow Meredith to murder them all.

 

No it doesn't, as Orsino didn't agree to surrendering after the Circle was directly being attacked and instead went to muster his defenses for Meredith's impending assault. Which is something she allowed him to do because that's what she wanted him to do. Orsino surrendering would be counter to her plans since even she knew that she was losing her hold on the Templars, so pushing Orsino to fight meant that she could carry out her RoA while if they surrendered the Templars wouldn't allow her, especially if Hawke refuses to get behind massacring surrendering forces.

 

Remember, the Templars side with Hawke over Meredith in regards to surrendering Mages. It's clear that they've lost much faith in her, question her competence due to the many rumors of her madness and their great respect for the Champion.



#48
KaiserShep

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With Elthina gone, Meredith is the law.  
 
There's a potential for many more innocent casualties if you support the mages, defeat Meredith and an Exalted March is called against Kirkwall.


Elthina was never really the law anyway. What has she done for Kirkwall? She couldn't get Meredith to allow a proper replacement for the viscount to take the office.

#49
Elite Midget

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Elthina was never really the law anyway. What has she done for Kirkwall? She couldn't get Meredith to allow a proper replacement for the viscount to take the office.

 

She may not be the law but the people loved and respected her so they listened to what she had to say. Sure, Meredith was doing her own thing but she couldn't openly defy Elthina. All Meredith could do was make excuses which Elthina couldn't really refute as the Blood Mage problem was a huge issue by that point and had gotten way out of hand.



#50
MagicalMaster

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No it doesn't, as Orsino didn't agree to surrendering after the Circle was directly being attacked and instead went to muster his defenses for Meredith's impending assault. Which is something she allowed him to do because that's what she wanted him to do. Orsino surrendering would be counter to her plans since even she knew that she was losing her hold on the Templars, so pushing Orsino to fight meant that she could carry out her RoA while if they surrendered the Templars wouldn't allow her, especially if Hawke refuses to get behind massacring surrendering forces.

 

Are you completely *forgetting* the part where Meredith and Orsino talk outside the circle itself before the Templars actually invade and Orsino full blown surrenders like I said above?  And Meredith *refuses* to accept it.

 

See here.

 

Orsino: "Imprison us if you must.  Search the tower.  I will even help you.  But do not kill us all for an act we did not commit."

 

Meredith: "LOLNOPE."