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[zenrockoutkast]

It's not so much as I'm giving Meredith credit as I'm giving the Idol credit for twisting and driving her insane.

 

 

He knew very well what research Quentin was doing, he kept it very close at hand for a reason. The only thing he gets a pass on that despite knowing the research, knowing its contents, and having it in his possession he didn't resort to Blood Magic until he was facing death and the Circle was in ruins.

 

Hawke also knows that the Circle knew of what Quentin was doing and that Quentin had the blessing of someone powerful. Orsino's reveal proves that he didn't care for the lose of life that Quentin inflicted in the name of furthering the research. So Hawke, even if he/she didn't know til the end that Orsino was helping Quentin, he/she knew that someone powerful in the Circle. Than Hawke later learns about the huge Blood Mage issue in the Circle, that's plenty of reason to be distrustful that Orsino can get his house in order.

 

It's never excuse to resort to Blood Mage or to hide the use of Blood Magic which Orsino did. He knew many mages were doing Blood Magic and he covered for it and tried to have them killed off as discreetly as possible. It goes back that Orsino wanted to save the image of the Circle so that he could prevent he had a morale high ground when all he was doing was giving more fuel for Meredith to twist to try and push her flawed views and actions as "Correct" when what she was doing was basically murdering innocents.

 

Orsino should have acknowledged the Blood Mage issue and worked with the Chantry to try and fix it. By working hand-in-hand with the Chantry to try and solve the problem, as well as prevent it from being a problem again, he could have ruined Meredith's credibility and gained the people's love as many followed the Chantry's teaching.

 

They don't, the Order disobeys the Order if Hawke asks them too and spares Mages that surrender to Hawke.

Yeah, and I'm sure you would be just as opposed to blood magic if you were a mage under watch 24 hours a day, in a circle that everyone acknowledges is more extreme than other circles, constantly locked in a cell like a prisoner, and worried that you might be killed for something that other mages did (as happened on multiple occasions) or made tranquil for something as simple as keeping a correspondence with an apostate.  I didn't say anything excused blood magic, I specifically said it didn't excuse Orsino's actions, but as I said it's a basic compulsion of EVERY living thing to keep on living, and when they feel that's in jeopardy they're going to use every resource at their disposal to go on living.  That's not a justification, it's a basic fact of living organisms.  Given that, when Meredith, who is supposed to work with Orsino and instead turns Kirkwall's Circle into the most draconian Circle in Thedas BEFORE she was corrupted by the idol, it's no surprise that Orsino would resort to that.  I'm not saying blood magic is right, I'm saying that the more Templars push mages the more compelled mages feel to use it, and that the best way to prevent blood magic is by being lenient and understanding with mages so that they don't feel like it's their only option.

 

And guess what, in the end Orsino was proven right.  Orsino was worried that a situation might arise where the Templars would kill off mages for something that the mages had no fault in (Anders blowing up the Chantry) and that blood magic would be their only defense against the Templars.  We know that Orsino's fears would come to pass no matter the case, even without Quentin Meredith still would've tried to annul the Circle.  On the other hand you have no way of proving that if Meredith had been lighter on the mages Orsino still would have turned to blood magic.  In fact, he had been pretty vocal about the necessity of the Circle, as opposed to someone like Anders, he simply took issue with mages' treatment in Kirkwall.

[Willowhugger]

Pro-Templar Hawke: The ideal circumstance for Pro-Templar Hawke is that Bethany is not a member of the Circle but a member of the Grey Wardens but the logic for him is, "Kirkwall's Circle is evil." They are not innocent victims. They're a collection of would-be Sith Lords plotting to murder and kill everyone around them and the culture of the Circle is toxic beyond reason. Pro-Templar Hawke decides not that all mages are evil, but that the CIRCLE SYSTEM and very probably THIS CIRCLE IN PARTICULAR's members are evil.

 

That's a very simple idea to wrap your head around. It is not a bunch of innocent victims with a few bad eggs, it is a collection of Blood Mages and murderers and monsters. If Bethany is in the Circle, your desire is to get her away from there and the best way to do that is make you sure you're at the front of the line to reach her first but if she STAYS with these mages. She WILL be corrupted. The Kirkwall Circle is a Maleficar cult and the only way to stop them from forming a Second Tevinter IN Kirkwall is to kill them.

 

It's basically the assumption the Blood Magery you encounter is part of a larger conspiracy.

[Kenshen]

I have only sided with the Templars twice (out of 20+ games haha).  First time I RPed it kinda like I was Carver, not that I hated Beth but was more jealous and this really was a stretch.  I couldn't help but meta-game (i struggle with this a lot) so knowing how it would end I took her to the deep roads without Anders and that will be the only time I will ever do that.  Second time I had her join the wardens.

 

The first time with Beth out of the way it was pretty easy to become a mage hater considering blood magic is everywhere and the second time I took the title of Champion seriously and it was my duty to protect the city and the fastest way to do that was to side against the mages which isn't hard considering what I had seen all through the game and what happens there at the end.

[Bellethiel]

What I like about siding with templars is the option of sparing some circle mages who surrender and seem to be blood magic free. Pretty sure they end up dead when you side with mages. Maybe that's why I usually end up backing up templars, especially cause there is this nice dialog between Meredith and Cullen which shows that not all templars are crazy mage butchers:

 

"Hawke: Is there a way to tell if they're blood mages?
Meredith: There is not.
Cullen: But they haven't resorted to it, even to save their own lives. Perhaps, if we watched them carefully...
Meredith: And if they hope to escape by playing innocent? Will you accept that responsibility, Cullen?
Cullen: Yes. I belive that's what being a templar is about.
Meredith: And I say we are here to protect the people. We must be judges, jailors and even executioners."

 

So I do not see siding with templars as being anti-mage kind of person. Especially considering how many actual blood mages you can encounter in Kirkwall.

[HTTP 404]

I guess you could RP that the Templars won't destroy Kirkwall since they are not the ones turning into Abominations.  I played a Hawke that didn't like magic but that he was reluctant to help Meredith, knowing that she is nuts.  But fighting abominations is better than going against Meredith.  At least that's how I rp'd that playthrough. 

[Elite Midget]

 

What I like about siding with templars is the option of sparing some circle mages who surrender and seem to be blood magic free. Pretty sure they end up dead when you side with mages. Maybe that's why I usually end up backing up templars, especially cause there is this nice dialog between Meredith and Cullen which shows that not all templars are crazy mage butchers:

 

"Hawke: Is there a way to tell if they're blood mages?
Meredith: There is not.
Cullen: But they haven't resorted to it, even to save their own lives. Perhaps, if we watched them carefully...
Meredith: And if they hope to escape by playing innocent? Will you accept that responsibility, Cullen?
Cullen: Yes. I belive that's what being a templar is about.
Meredith: And I say we are here to protect the people. We must be judges, jailors and even executioners."

 

So I do not see siding with templars as being anti-mage kind of person. Especially considering how many actual blood mages you can encounter in Kirkwall.

 

Cullen really does step up if you side with the Templars. If you talk to him between acts he mentions that he folows the Templar Order and he's worried that Meredith and the Order aren't the same anymore and if he's following the Order's teachings or what Meredith wants. Thrask mentions in Act 3, if you go to the Gallows, that Meredith has forsaken her Templar duties since she took up the Viscount's spot/responsibilities. 

 

So the Templars are very doubtful of Meredith but still believe in their Order and many believe the rumors about Meredith's madness.

 

 

Orsino probably didn't divulge what was going on because by Act 3, Meredith is pretty bonkers, and he most likely feared that telling Meredith would just give her an excuse to Annul the Circle anyway. From Orsino's perspective, tolerating (and covering for) the blood mages might have been the best way to protect the innocent mages in the Circle from Annulment alongside the blood mages. Of course, Anders comes along and blows up the Chantry, rendering all of Orsino's efforts moot and making Annulment inevitable, at which point Orsino is just like "Screw it, we're dead anyway, might well take some of them with us".

And his misguided view towards that made matters worse and let Quentin cause all kinds of chaos as well as allowing so much loss of life due to said Blood Mages causing all kinds of crazy trouble in Kirkwall. He had years to set things straight but he never wanted to work with the Templars even before Meredith started going crazy due to the Idol. He only tried to make good after the Grand Cleric was dead as he knew that he no longer had any protection and now Meredith, who hates and never trusted Orsino for good reason due to his many lies and cover ups, could act as she saw fit.

 

There's a reason Cullen and co. don't trust Orsino or his word while they trust the words of innocent lower ranking mages who want to surrender if you sided with the Templars at the end.

[Elite Midget]

Yeah, and I'm sure you would be just as opposed to blood magic if you were a mage under watch 24 hours a day, in a circle that everyone acknowledges is more extreme than other circles, constantly locked in a cell like a prisoner, and worried that you might be killed for something that other mages did (as happened on multiple occasions) or made tranquil for something as simple as keeping a correspondence with an apostate.  I didn't say anything excused blood magic, I specifically said it didn't excuse Orsino's actions, but as I said it's a basic compulsion of EVERY living thing to keep on living, and when they feel that's in jeopardy they're going to use every resource at their disposal to go on living.  That's not a justification, it's a basic fact of living organisms.  Given that, when Meredith, who is supposed to work with Orsino and instead turns Kirkwall's Circle into the most draconian Circle in Thedas BEFORE she was corrupted by the idol, it's no surprise that Orsino would resort to that.  I'm not saying blood magic is right, I'm saying that the more Templars push mages the more compelled mages feel to use it, and that the best way to prevent blood magic is by being lenient and understanding with mages so that they don't feel like it's their only option.

 

And guess what, in the end Orsino was proven right.  Orsino was worried that a situation might arise where the Templars would kill off mages for something that the mages had no fault in (Anders blowing up the Chantry) and that blood magic would be their only defense against the Templars.  We know that Orsino's fears would come to pass no matter the case, even without Quentin Meredith still would've tried to annul the Circle.  On the other hand you have no way of proving that if Meredith had been lighter on the mages Orsino still would have turned to blood magic.  In fact, he had been pretty vocal about the necessity of the Circle, as opposed to someone like Anders, he simply took issue with mages' treatment in Kirkwall.

Blood Magic is never okay, it's an excuse and we've seen what happens when the pushed Mages ended up going to Blood Mage. Countless dead, chaos in the streets, and Kirkwall in flames. They have every right to defend their rights and to be treated as people and not slaves but they have no right to make demonic deals, abuse blood magic, become Abominations, and drag innocents into their struggle.

 

Meredith, Cullen, and co. weren't a part of the Tranquil Solution. Meredith even told the mad man that if he didn't stop it there would be punishment. Which says a lot as Meredith already had the idol at that point and she still didn't agree with the Tranquil Solution.

 

Orsino ended up using Blood Magic, if he had died by his own merits and didn't succumb to Blood Magic, and becoming an Abomination, THAN he would have been proven right. Instead he became the thing that Meredith feared he, and all Mages, will become if the need or desire is there. Furthermore, Orsino KNOWINGLY aided his friends research which he knew involved Necromancy and Blood Magic and there's no way he didn't figure out that it was his friend, based off the shared research, was the one doing the murders with those women as he research involved trying to bring back his wife from the dead. Orsino could have ended it from the very beginning if he had brought his crazed friend to the Templars or put him down himself, instead he let his friend do what he wanted as long as he kept sharing his findings with him and so that this didn't get out as it would damn Mages even more in Meredith, the Templars, and the people's eyes as no one with any morals would approve of what was happening.

 

Besides, Blood Magic as their only defense? They still lost even with Blood Magic(And if Hawke chose to aid them), the difference between regular magic and Blood Magic in the end for Orsino is that he sold his soul to the demons and became a monster that didn't even resemble the man that he once was. 

 

Meredith didn't have the authority to annual the Circle as the Grand Cleric would never allow it, nor did she ever suggest annulling the circle until AFTER the Grand Cleric was murdered a crazed Mage. She's right that the implications are there, the Chantry is gone and the people will want blood over the Grand Cleric's death. The fact that a Mage murdered her, and any other innocents in the Chantry meant that the people would blame the Mages and would demand the Templars do something or they would turn on them to thus leading to Chaos.

[Willowhugger]

Eh, I don't think the "people want blood" defense holds weight.

 

Especially since Anders' stabbed body is on the ground.

 

Better Annul the Circle on the fact it's a cesspool of evil mages.

[KaiserShep]

Blood Magic is never okay, it's an excuse and we've seen what happens when the pushed Mages ended up going to Blood Mage. Countless dead, chaos in the streets, and Kirkwall in flames. They have every right to defend their rights and to be treated as people and not slaves but they have no right to make demonic deals, abuse blood magic, become Abominations, and drag innocents into their struggle.

 

Innate ability or not, blood magic is like any other weapon. As much as one may be opposed to using it, the value you place on your own life may be far greater than that of your personal integrity. If you're about to die, you may care very very little for how wrong this weapon may be. Not to say how much or how little conviction you may have personally, but I'm never one to underestimate the power of self-preservation.

[Elite Midget]

Eh, I don't think the "people want blood" defense holds weight.

 

Especially since Anders' stabbed body is on the ground.

 

Better Annul the Circle on the fact it's a cesspool of evil mages.

It does, they want blood and if Meredith didn't give them that blood they would take it themselves. 

 

Anders is only 1 Mage and they don't know at the moment follow the Chantry's destruction he did it specifically, all they know is that some Mage did it with a big explosion and the Grand Cleric is dead due to Magic. Anders role isn't revealed to the world, and the common man, til after the whole thing is over.

 

 

Innate ability or not, blood magic is like any other weapon. As much as one may be opposed to using it, the value you place on your own life may be far greater than that of your personal integrity. If you're about to die, you may care very very little for how wrong this weapon may be. Not to say how much or how little conviction you may have personally, but I'm never one to underestimate the power of self-preservation.

Blood Magic isn't like any other weapon as it eventually involves a demonic deal, if they want to become more powerful and all Blood Mages eventually do lust for that power demons promise them, and we know that 99.9999999%+ of all Blood Mages end up going insane and causing a ton of destruction and death. Blood Magic is also a life decision/choice as you can never turn back from it or the demon unless you die.

 

They already give up their own lives when they turn to Blood Magic as the demon happily pushes them aside to take the reigns. Notice how different and irrational Mages become after the Blood Mage stuff is official? Heck, Grace went all kinds of crazy after becoming a Blood Mage. Like, even more crazy than she already was that she killed Thrask in cold blood even though he was helping her because he didn't agree with trying to murder Hawke.

[Willowhugger]

 

It does, they want blood and if Meredith didn't give them that blood they would take it themselves.

And what would be the difference?

A bunch of dead anti-mage racists instead of Templars?

Not sure how the Templars vs. Angry Mob is different.

[Sir DeLoria]

I always side with the Templars because I usually play a Templar in personality and opinion quite akin to Sebastian. Hawke understands that the Circle must be dissolved by whatever means necessary but tries to prevent as many casualties as possible, especially on the side of the Templars.

I also side with the Templars if Hawke is a mage or Bethany is in the Circle.

[DuskWanderer]

I think Meredith went off the deep end with the Right of Annulment. Fortunately, we don't have to side with Meredith in the Templar ending (even if you do, she betrays you, after all), I side with Cullen. If need be, I stop Meredith from stabbing Bethany. Never let her go through with that. I also side with Cullen on sparing the mages. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Eh, I don't think the "people want blood" defense holds weight.

 

Especially since Anders' stabbed body is on the ground.

 

Better Annul the Circle on the fact it's a cesspool of evil mages.

 

Well, think back to what Gamlen says about mages after you tell him what happened to Leandra (if you take that dialogue option). He gets angry, not just at Quentin, but at mages in general (saying that they should be locked up and the keys thrown away).

 

Now imagine how angry the people of Kirkwall would be over the death of Grand Cleric Elthina. Anders did not simply kill her, he blew up the whole damn religious place-of-worship for many in that city. Some may be rational about it and not try to blame it on all mages, but there will also be many others that are going to overreact and call for all mages' heads. Sometimes that's all it takes to create a mob.

 

Now, whether the Templars should lead that mob or protect the mages against it is another argument, but Meredith's claim that the people will want blood does make sense. It also makes sense to believe that order will be restored by giving them what they want rather than letting mages run in the street alongside the same people that are violently angry at them (rightly or not), and I believe Aveline alludes to that herself when companions give their opinion on the matter before Hawke's decision.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, I just don't think it matters one way or the other. Since the Annulment is to kill all mages in the city anyway and it won't matter one way or the other since I doubt people are going to leave the city to go hunt mages elsewhere.

No, for me, the only sensible solution is to Hawke believes the Circle is hopelessly corrupted.

[Elite Midget]

And what would be the difference?

A bunch of dead anti-mage racists instead of Templars?

Not sure how the Templars vs. Angry Mob is different.

The people aren't racists, they're simply angry that the most loved person in Kirkwall, the Grand Cleric, is dead due to a Mage and Magic. They wont be thinking rationally and if you side with Mages they wont even bother to listen to Hawke while if you side with the Templars you can control the chaos and even become Viscount thus enacting your own policies with the people's full support even if Hawke is a Mage.

[Willowhugger]

The people aren't racists, they're simply angry that the most loved person in Kirkwall, the Grand Cleric, is dead due to a Mage and Magic. They wont be thinking rationally and if you side with Mages they wont even bother to listen to Hawke while if you side with the Templars you can control the chaos and even become Viscount thus enacting your own policies with the people's full support even if Hawke is a Mage.

Policies for what? All the mages are dead.

 

I guess it makes more sense to assume the Circle of Kirkwall is hopelessly corrupted. From the top down, we've seen dozens of Blood Mages plotting horrific experiments, Hawke's mother was killed by a Blood Mage, Orsino is someone we may suspect of being involved in Leandra's death, and the Circle has displayed a causal brutality to regular humans left and right.

The place is a poisonous cult of evil.

 

And it will ruin Bethany and any mages brought to it unless it's burned with fire.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Didn't David Gaider say that Kirkwall wasn't really as infested with blood mages as it seemed and that it was just that Hawke stumbled across pretty much every blood mage in the city?

[Willowhugger]

Didn't David Gaider say that Kirkwall wasn't really as infested with blood mages as it seemed and that it was just that Hawke stumbled across pretty much every blood mage in the city?

 

Yeah, he could have made that more clear.

Also, it makes the Templar ending even less justifiable.

[Kenshen]

Didn't David Gaider say that Kirkwall wasn't really as infested with blood mages as it seemed and that it was just that Hawke stumbled across pretty much every blood mage in the city?

 

If so that was done very poorly in game.  There was enough of a problem that an exalted march is being discussed and those don't just happen because of a few blood mages.  The city and the circle were out of control and even the chantry was having its issues.  Where is the big red reset button when it is needed.

[Elite Midget]

Policies for what? All the mages are dead.

 

I guess it makes more sense to assume the Circle of Kirkwall is hopelessly corrupted. From the top down, we've seen dozens of Blood Mages plotting horrific experiments, Hawke's mother was killed by a Blood Mage, Orsino is someone we may suspect of being involved in Leandra's death, and the Circle has displayed a causal brutality to regular humans left and right.

The place is a poisonous cult of evil.

 

And it will ruin Bethany and any mages brought to it unless it's burned with fire.

You can spare Mages if you side with the Templar and the fighting stops when Hawke kills Meredith. Not all Mages are at the circle either. Besides, if Hawke doesn't lead than a Templar will and it's very doubtful a Templar will put don policies that will pave the way for a better future for Mages like Hawke could potentially do. That and a templar will be stonewalled while the people will do practically anything Hawke wants after saving Kirkwall, again, and avenging the Grand Cleric.

 

The Circle has issues, yes, but Meredith and Ser Alrek made things much worse that made it very easy for Mages to rationalize using Blood Magic and swearing Demonic Dealings to become Abominations when they know that doing so was crossing a forbidden line and only brought more trouble for everyone. Orsino's inability to control his Mages or to appeal to the people and the Grand Cleric without mudslinging at Meredith didn't help either.

 

 

Yeah, he could have made that more clear.

Also, it makes the Templar ending even less justifiable.

The Templars did their duty when Blood Mages/Abominations appeared everywhere. Cullen and co. also proved that they didn't blindly follow the RoA, as they didn't trust Meredith's sanity, and will defy it if Hawke backs them on saving lives and they readily defied Meredith when Meredith threatened to kill Hawke when, from what they know, Hawke was to be taken into custody only.

 

Siding with them is to also try and prevent a holy march upon Kirkwall from the Divine and possibly Starkhaven if you're so pro-mage that you overlook what Anders did.

[KaiserShep]

Blood Magic isn't like any other weapon as it eventually involves a demonic deal, if they want to become more powerful and all Blood Mages eventually do lust for that power demons promise them, and we know that 99.9999999%+ of all Blood Mages end up going insane and causing a ton of destruction and death. Blood Magic is also a life decision/choice as you can never turn back from it or the demon unless you die.

 

They already give up their own lives when they turn to Blood Magic as the demon happily pushes them aside to take the reigns. Notice how different and irrational Mages become after the Blood Mage stuff is official? Heck, Grace went all kinds of crazy after becoming a Blood Mage. Like, even more crazy than she already was that she killed Thrask in cold blood even though he was helping her because he didn't agree with trying to murder Hawke.

 

 

Blood magic is like any other weapon insofar that if it's the only defense left, it will probably be used. It doesn't matter what it entails, or the long-term consequences. If you're about to die, you will likely not think of arbitrary percentages or statistics. Whatever power you have to save yourself, in all likelihood, you will use it.

[Beerfish]

Blood magic is like any other weapon insofar that if it's the only defense left, it will probably be used. It doesn't matter what it entails, or the long-term consequences. If you're about to die, you will likely not think of arbitrary percentages or statistics. Whatever power you have to save yourself, in all likelihood, you will use it.

You have to know how to use it before hand, which means you have dabbled in it before hand if not have partaken in it before hand.  It's not as if each mage suddenly goes wah!!!  time to become a blood mage i am about to be killed!  This is why Orsino was such a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[Arijharn]

You have to know how to use it before hand, which means you have dabbled in it before hand if not have partaken in it before hand.  It's not as if each mage suddenly goes wah!!!  time to become a blood mage i am about to be killed!  This is why Orsino was such a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Source?

 

Remember the girl who was Thrask's daughter? She became an Abomination simply because she allowed a demon to possess her. That's 'Blood Magic' apparently. You also only need to form a pact with a demon, consider saving Connor's life in origins. That's what Blood Magic is, the pact. Suddenly you're really able to slit your wrists and cause your gushing blood to do stuff.

 

Re: the RoA, while I save the surrendering mages, doing so sort of defeats the point of having the RoA in the first place imo. As an aside, in the cutscene where the Templars are invading the circle and cutting down the mages I'd like to point out that not one mage in that cutscene is doing anything 'blood magicy.' Good old fireballs and electrical bolts only. 

 

As to Orsino, I think he truly must be incompetent if he's leaking 'proscribed texts' to Quentin and not considering how Quentin is using it. Whether he's woefully naive or not, he's clearly not fit to be First Enchanter. Blood Mages are a problem in the city, it behooves him as First Enchanter to work with the Templar's in order to expose those at fault in order to protect his majority. I get the feeling though that Orsino was not a rational person.

 

The Right of Annulment really is to kill every mage in a tower. It's not to kill most and save the surrendering ones. It's a heavy handed last ditch resort that is, regardless of our personal opinions, a 'just' action within the world of Dragon Age. It's not so much a war or even a massacre, it's 'cleaning house' because mages aren't really looked upon as people by the general public.

[Willowhugger]

Blood Magic is different from opening yourself to a demon and becoming an abomination.

 

Blood Magic makes the latter much-much easier, though.