111 réponses à ce sujet

[tirnoney]

Blood Magic is different from opening yourself to a demon and becoming an abomination.

 

Blood Magic makes the latter much-much easier, though.

 

I'm a little fuzzy on the lore on this one.  If you learn blood magic from a book, or from another mage, does it intrinsically make you more prone to demon possession?  If it does then abominations must be a serious problem in Tevinter yet I can't recall the lore saying much about that.  I thought the demon possession problem was only an issue when you needed to deal with a demon in order to learn blood magic. 

[Arijharn]

I think possibly Tevinter is a bit different. Person see's an Abomination running amok down the street and probably thinks to himself: "must be Tuesday."

 

Demonic possession is a pact. A mage has to surrender him or herself in order to allow the demon in. Consider 'mouse' in the players harrowing in Origins. Blood Magic is also a pact. Therefore it's Blood Magic to allow an abomination in that purpose. Thrask's daughter was petrified, in her desperation she called and a Sloth demon (?) answered. 

 

You could make a case though when a demon forcibly manifests through possession as something not Blood Magic through the possessee's part (i.e., all the Templar's that the 'Tramp from Dusktown' bewitches, her name escapes me) but I don't think that's really relevant because it involves a third party doing the actual contract.

 

In DA2 though we do see Abominations that appear that haven't actually possessed anything (Wilmod's 'guards' for example) but I'm not sure if they're canon Abominations, whether I'm reading far too much into it, or anywhere in between.

[tirnoney]

I think possibly Tevinter is a bit different. Person see's an Abomination running amok down the street and probably thinks to himself: "must be Tuesday."

 

Demonic possession is a pact. A mage has to surrender him or herself in order to allow the demon in. Consider 'mouse' in the players harrowing in Origins. Blood Magic is also a pact. Therefore it's Blood Magic to allow an abomination in that purpose. Thrask's daughter was petrified, in her desperation she called and a Sloth demon (?) answered. 

 

You could make a case though when a demon forcibly manifests through possession as something not Blood Magic through the possessee's part (i.e., all the Templar's that the 'Tramp from Dusktown' bewitches, her name escapes me) but I don't think that's really relevant because it involves a third party doing the actual contract.

 

In DA2 though we do see Abominations that appear that haven't actually possessed anything (Wilmod's 'guards' for example) but I'm not sure if they're canon Abominations, whether I'm reading far too much into it, or anywhere in between.

Are you not making the assumption that the only way to learn blood magic is via a demon.  My understanding is that it can be taught between mages and theoretically could be written down and read by others.  The only reason it has to be learnt from a demon in most of Thedas is because the chantry has stamped it out and burned all the books.  I can't imagine that every magister in Tevinter who practices blood magic has made a deal with a demon?  Seems like it wouldn't be worth the risk for people so powerful already.

[Arijharn]

Are you not making the assumption that the only way to learn blood magic is via a demon.  My understanding is that it can be taught between mages and theoretically could be written down and read by others.  The only reason it has to be learnt from a demon in most of Thedas is because the chantry has stamped it out and burned all the books.  I can't imagine that every magister in Tevinter who practices blood magic has made a deal with a demon?  Seems like it wouldn't be worth the risk for people so powerful already.

 

I don't think I am, at least, I didn't intend for it to come out like that. All I'm stating is being an abomination is a daemonic pact which many in game describe as being Blood Magic. Not that all Blood Magic is from a daemonic pact. Remember someone said originally that it requires practice beforehand, I gave an example when someone immediately fell into it.

 

Also stating that it all comes from demons is patently false, which is why I wouldn't try to argue it. Decimus for example is attempting to teach blood magic, but Decimus is clearly not a demon.

[Patchwork]

You probably can learn the basics of blood magic from a book, Jowan did, but for the really powerful spells you have to deal with demons. Not necessarily make a deal with them but interact- summoning etc.  

[Jester]

Yeah, he could have made that more clear.

Also, it makes the Templar ending even less justifiable.

Orsino was a blood mage. The most disgusting kind at that, as he supported what Quentin did. And he was a leader of this Circle. Apart from that, almost everyone we meet is a Blood Mage. The thing is, that Blood Magic is hard to learn. It's not just knowledge that's laying around. That means, that there are people inside Circle, who are actively teaching Blood Magic. Orsino was leaking forbidden knowledge to an apostate - he could have just as easily allowed Circle mages to have access to knowledge about Blood Magic and Necromancy. 

Sure, not every mage there was a Blood Mage - but there must have been some, high in the Circle hierarchy, who actively taught Blood Magic.

 

I'm a little fuzzy on the lore on this one.  If you learn blood magic from a book, or from another mage, does it intrinsically make you more prone to demon possession?  If it does then abominations must be a serious problem in Tevinter yet I can't recall the lore saying much about that.  I thought the demon possession problem was only an issue when you needed to deal with a demon in order to learn blood magic. 

 

Blood Magic makes it easier to tear the Veil - which in theory makes possession more easy. However, the mage still has to accept demonic possession - rember Uldred in Origins, who asked mages a question before they became abominations? "Do you accept, the gifts that I offer?".

I doubt that demonic possession is a large problem in Tevinter. Magisters are obviously among the most powerful mages in Thedas. Becoming an abomination means losing control, and basically almost dying. There is not reason why a high ranked Magister would become an abomination. As to lower mages, they are supervised by experienced masters. There is no source of distress or danger (in a form of Templars wanting to execute you), that would cause mages to to give into demonic possession willingly. And inexperienced mages are supervised in the Circles.

 

Anders is actually at least partially right. Becoming abomination is caused mostly by Templars. Imagine a mage, escaping from the Circle, because he doesn't want to spend his whole life in prison. If Templars find him, he has only three options:

1) Be executed by them

2) Become Tranquil

3) Turn into an abomination (giving away the control into demon) and try to fight with new power.

 

For many, the third option is preferable to dying or becoming Tranquil. 

 

In Tevinter, that is not a problem. Mages have power and wealth. They are feared and/or respected. They have no reason to turn into abominations willingly, as it's an act of desperation.

 

There is one issue I have with DA in terms of gameplay. Abominations are too easy in combat. They barely use any spells and attack primarily in melee. A powerful desire/pride abomination is able to kill an entire squad of Templars with ease. That is not reflected in gameplay.

[Willowhugger]

I'm a little fuzzy on the lore on this one.  If you learn blood magic from a book, or from another mage, does it intrinsically make you more prone to demon possession?  If it does then abominations must be a serious problem in Tevinter yet I can't recall the lore saying much about that.  I thought the demon possession problem was only an issue when you needed to deal with a demon in order to learn blood magic. 

Blood Magic weakens the Veil between worlds intrinsically according to Last Flight.

 

You can also summon demons with it.

Hence, Uldred and company using so much of it tore a massive hole in the Veil.

[Willowhugger]

Also David Gaider said that consent isn't always needed for possession.

 

Weak-willed mages can be possessed outright.

[Arijharn]

I guess then that's a firm argument in favor of the circle then. I didn't actually know that, so I suppose Aveline has a point in one of her conversations with Bethany.

[Willowhugger]

I guess then that's a firm argument in favor of the circle then. I didn't actually know that, so I suppose Aveline has a point in one of her conversations with Bethany.

 

How often mages actually meet demons, though, is a matter of some debate. Some think its every night while others believe the reason some mages want to be Tranquil to avoid their Harrowing is the terror of meeting one for the first time. :-)

 

Still, there's a very good argument the Circles should exist in terms of "being a place all mages should go to learn how to use their powers."

 

Malcolm Hawke DOES has a one-up on the Circles in that Bethany is the most well-adjusted mage of all time versus the basket cases of one sort or another the Circles usually produce.

 

Ironically, this is an argument that Mages not being allowed to raise their kids is the worst part of the Circles as they'd probably be the best qualified for educating them to avoid demons.

[Kenshen]

I guess then that's a firm argument in favor of the circle then. I didn't actually know that, so I suppose Aveline has a point in one of her conversations with Bethany.

 

I could get behind that idea if the circles were more a school than a prison.  I thought Orsino had one good point there at the end before his transformation about why keep a mage alive as a baby once it is discovered they have that power only to imprison and torture them latter.  

[darkmanifest]

I could get behind that idea if the circles were more a school than a prison.  I thought Orsino had one good point there at the end before his transformation about why keep a mage alive as a baby once it is discovered they have that power only to imprison and torture them latter.  

 

I imagine the Circles were supposed to act as merciful alternatives to just out-and-out child murder.  As bad as they could be, they were probably a step up from what an angry village mob could do after little Jeremy or Judith came into their powers and accidentally fireballed a few houses.  Plus, a huge part of Thedas's economy (enchanted goods) and defense (particularly against Qunari) is dependent on magic.  Toss in the fear that if mages have independent control over that much influence, it'd be mages ruling Thedas all over again, and voila: You have motive to spare and educate mages, but not to allow them freedom, while patting oneself on the back for not drowning babies.