208 réponses à ce sujet

[Devtek]

So what makes an old god an archdemon anyways? Is it just a name? If they're not associated with demons, then they're just powerful darkspawn.

 

Just a thought.

 

I hear your point though. Not sure how they survived, if BM is as dangerous as it's usually presented. It doesn't help that Tevinter seemed highly competitive as well (and still seems to be that way now). Forget demons. Social darwinism isn't exactly good longterm either.

 

Archdemon: I don't know of any reference that says where the name came from but almost everything "the world of Thedas" knows about the darkspawn is from the Chantry position.  They oppose magic.  What is the bad thing about magic that they are always warning about other than mages ruling things? Demons and other not quite friendly spirits. They believe that the darkspawn came from the event where Magisters corrupted the Golden City in the fade where spirits live.  The result is the corruption of the old gods into the archdemons. Why archdemons then? Because they are something evil that came from the fade, just like demons.  Futhermore we don't actually know what the Old Gods were specifically, the old Tevinter "worshipped the old gods in their dragon forms".  Many things in DA have taken the form of dragons, Flemmeth, the entity of Death you fight in Legacy etc, it doesn't mean that they are all actually dragons.  How do we know that the Old Gods aren't actually really powerful spirits that have been trapped in dragon bodies? It has never been revealed what they actually are yet. 

 

I personally like the theory that the Old Gods are part of the elven pantheon (The forgotten ones) that were imprisoned by Fen'Harel (which in this theory is also the Maker) along with the Creators (who are really powerful spirits). Much of what happened to spirits (trapped in the fade by the maker) and the old gods (trapped in underground prisons) align with what happened to the Creators (Trapped in their heaven) and the Forgotten Ones (trapped in the abyss). Again, we don't actually know what the heck any of the multiple god groups are, if anything. The Maker, the Old Gods, the elven gods and so on have never (and may never) been explained.

 

On the why has tevinter survived thing:

Well the other big empire in the game is run on a system of ritualized murder of friends and family in order to "win" political games, Thedas isn't exactly a world where effective political systems are widespread.

[TurretSyndrome]

I don't think Blood Magic needs to have as much an effect as some people believe it should. I always thought that, to implement it, you can have maybe two characters who are absolutely against it, with one of them capable of being persuaded out of turning on you. 

 

In oblivion, if you killed someone innocent, you'd be contacted by the Dark Brotherhood. In the same way, I'd like to be commented on or confronted by a few NPCs in the game. The entirety of the game's population doesn't have to react to it, just a few. It is after all, a game.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Elder Scrolls Series is still very different from Dragon Age. Oblivion didn't exactly have profound consequences for being a murderer. I remember one time a guard came up to me and said "You murdering scum! If it had been up to me, I'd have put you down myself." I then literally took one step back and talked him agian and he said " *GASP* You, you're the one they call the Hero of Kvatch! Can I have your autograph?"

[EmperorSahlertz]

The main issue Bioware has is the issue of its evil nature and how to make that clear, not capturing every detail of blood magic. The problem is that an organization branching from the chantry wouldnt tolerate something so sinister. That was the issue that they were trying to work out not the issue you've blown out of proportion.

 

If a legitimate representation of BM took an entire game do you think they would have even attempted to implement it into DA:I? Your assumptions arent supported by what was said in the interview, my suggestion can be supported due to the fact that it was actually in the game till it apparently scarpped. They did not want to misrepresent the ability from the get go yet still attempted to allow us to use it well into development. That doesnt sound like the game long process you insist on

You really just don't get it, do you? Why do you think they removed BM in the first palce (assuming that they ever wanted to include it in DA:I)? Because they COULDN'T do it justice. Ergo, a specialization with a few lines of dialogue was NOT enough for BioWare's tastes.

[Todd23]

I'm seeing a lot of back and forth between people saying that blood magic is just a way to improve the power of normal magic and blood magic being something different entirely. To me it seems to be a little of both. Blood magic IS using blood as a component instead of lyrium, the whole reason why they are components to spells is because magic comes from a connection to the fade. That's what mages are born with, lyrium is able to connect to the fade and so is blood. The blood is more likely to weaken the veil and that's why it can attract demons. Blood magic is its own school but technically there are more schools than anyone is aware of. A hedge mage will learn their connection with the fade and might come up with their own ways of using it creating a completely different school of magic that doesn't have anything to do with what we know as magic its just raw energy that can be expressed in many ways. Blood magic helps it be expressed in different ways. There've been codex entries that have explicitly said that blood magic was originally used by Tevinter to simply give them more power and then they realized that somethings they could only do with blood magic. Such as dominating the minds of people. They knew that with lyrium they could enter someone's dream and with blood they could enter it and then alter the dream itself.

[Devtek]

I still want to know how they are able to do "justice" for the consequences of being a reaver but not a blood mage. Both are forms of blood magic.

[Uccio]

So what makes an old god an archdemon anyways? Is it just a name? If they're not associated with demons, then they're just powerful darkspawn.

 

Just a thought.

 

I hear your point though. Not sure how they survived, if BM is as dangerous as it's usually presented. It doesn't help that Tevinter seemed highly competitive as well (and still seems to be that way now). Forget demons. Social darwinism isn't exactly good longterm either.

 

 

Old Gods are called Archdemons because they are tainted by darkspawn taint and they look like rotten corpse. Originally they were ancient high dragons, sentient ones apparently since they tought Magisters blood magic. What they really were is not being specified yet. My own guess is that they are actual avatars for the Old Gods, not the gods themselves.

[KainD]

I don't think Bioware is trying to railroad the PC, and  I would expect several "evil options" available to the PC.  The problem with blood magic is telling the story of blood magic in such a way that the PC knows there's something wrong with blood magic in the first place.  Both of the first two games failed in this, and never really gave an indication that there was anything wrong with blood magic (at least from my perspective). 

 

Your PC may not be against blood magic.  It may be as simple as never getting the opportunity to learn blood magic.

 

There is nothing wrong with blood magic. What is wrong with blood magic? Is a dark fantasy supposed to tell me what's right and what's wrong? 

Am I to expect negative consequences for every other ''evil'' option in the game as well? 

[KainD]

I still want to know how they are able to do "justice" for the consequences of being a reaver but not a blood mage. Both are forms of blood magic.

 

There shouldn't be any consequences for both. 

[DaySeeker]

The Devs have said they have not been able to show the consequences of blood magic.  I believe they have tried - the strong feelings against it in both games expressed by NPC's, evil blood mages who attack you, etc.  I think that blood magic is more than using blood as a power source; it is a corruption of the living and dead.  With Merrill and Jowan we see the consequences not to the practitioner but to all around him and those he cares about.  Merril and others point out her clan is beset by an unusual amount of undead and attacked by creatures who usually do not molest the elves (spiders, the varterral) this is due to Merril's dealing with the demon.  Jowan poisons everything he touches. Allowing a player to choose blood magic creates a false sense that it is the same as any other power and allows no real consequences that would change the game experience from a player who didn't use blood magic.  It's not just a character saying, "Ew, why are you doing that!" Blood magic curses the user and contaminates the world around her.

[KainD]

The Devs have said they have not been able to show the consequences of blood magic.  I believe they have tried - the strong feelings against it in both games expressed by NPC's, evil blood mages who attack you, etc.  I think that blood magic is more than using blood as a power source; it is a corruption of the living and dead.  With Merrill and Jowan we see the consequences not to the practitioner but to all around him and those he cares about.  Merril and others point out her clan is beset by an unusual amount of undead and attacked by creatures who usually do not molest the elves (spiders, the varterral) this is due to Merril's dealing with the demon.  Jowan poisons everything he touches. Allowing a player to choose blood magic creates a false sense that it is the same as any other power and allows no real consequences that would change the game experience from a player who didn't use blood magic.  It's not just a character saying, "Ew, why are you doing that!" Blood magic curses the user and contaminates the world around her.

 

Have you ever played TOR? 

[Maria Caliban]

Honestly? Until some of the more recent statements by devs and the semi-recent book of thedas, I was always under the impression that blood magic was fairly neutral and it was only how the player chose to use it that could be considered as "evil."

The Dragon Age games haven't sold blood magic well. I can't tell if it's because the developers themselves were ambivalent about it, they were trying to be subtle, they didn't have time to properly convey the badness to the PC, or if they've changed how moral it is from DA:O.

Then we have something like the Grey Wardens' Joining, the Anvil, and the Dark Ritual ALL being blood magic. The Anvil is a dwarven creation based on their use of enchantments and lyrium -- should we assume demonic influence in any of this? Is it likewise inherently evil? (as opposed to evil because people were forced onto the Anvil)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Anvil of the Void is blood magic? Where was that established?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I still want to know how they are able to do "justice" for the consequences of being a reaver but not a blood mage. Both are forms of blood magic.

Reavers aren't akind of Blood Magic. Mundanes can't cast magic. Reavers are empowered by Dragon blood, but the inclusion of blood does not make it Blood magic.

 

There shouldn't be any consequences for both. 

Why shouldn't there be?

[Gtdef]

Saying that Blood Magic makes you susceptible to demonic influence is very plausible, and I think that it's intented that way cause Bioware still hasn't figured out a way to show what makes Blood Magic more dangerous than other magic or perhaps they just don't want to show cause they have something in mind.

 

Only the fact that you learn this school from demons is enough to make you more susceptible. For example you may think that the demon is your benefactor and get seduced by his influence. How many of us here have had bad influences from things that our parents warned us about because we think that "it's not as bad as they say it is".

 

Malcolm Hawke could be influenced because of the vulgar and filthy nature of the work he had to do. Demons are horrid creatures. Darkspawn are the same. How long does it take till it gets into your head.

 

The only thing I can recall that actually suggests that Blood Magic is directly tapping into demonic power is when Merrill destroys the barrier for the quest to ressurect Flemeth. And that's because Anders says something about summoning magic. That's it.

[SerCambria358]

You really just don't get it, do you? Why do you think they removed BM in the first palce (assuming that they ever wanted to include it in DA:I)? Because they COULDN'T do it justice. Ergo, a specialization with a few lines of dialogue was NOT enough for BioWare's tastes.

Its not an assumption its a fact confirmed by the devs and just because they decided not to include it after all does not confirm that it would take an entire game to do it justice. 

[Gtdef]

I'll actually be very amused if they made blood magic baseline.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Its not an assumption its a fact confirmed by the devs and just because they decided not to include it after all does not confirm that it would take an entire game to do it justice. 

It confirms that they did not feel what you find adequate to be sufficient.

 

And your question was what I felt would be adequate, and I answered that. Whatever BioWare feels is adequate, we will just have to wait and see. But the class model of DA:I certainly isn't.

[Devtek]

Reavers aren't akind of Blood Magic. Mundanes can't cast magic. Reavers are empowered by Dragon blood, but the inclusion of blood does not make it Blood magic.

 

 

 

 

First of all there really isn't such a thing as a "mundane" in DA since "Magic courses through all living beings in Thedas. Some even believe it is the power that gives all beings life. Yet despite magic's ubiquity, only a few possess the ability to manipulate it." Just because you can't shoot fire out your fingertips that doesn't mean you don't have magic. While they may not be able to use it to cast spells, non-mages can still wield magic in other ways such as Templars who ingest lyrium in order to cast quasi-spells (protective barriers and magical annulments etc), dwarfs who cannot be mages can still create and use magical devices. The only difference between mages and non mages is how much mana they have.

 

Secondly Reaving is a form of blood magic. The blood they have to drink in order to become a reaver is analogous to the blood that grey wardens use to become grey wardens; both initiations involve the consumption of  ritually prepared blood. The joining is considered blood magic so why would the reaving initiation not be? "Reavers are warriors who use blood magic to give themselves power" Reavers use blood and pain (just like what blood mages use to fuel blood magic) in order to give themselves magical abilities such as being able to consume the life force of their enemies, which is magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

 

 

First of all there really isn't such a thing as a "mundane" in DA since "Magic courses through all living beings in Thedas. Some even believe it is the power that gives all beings life. Yet despite magic's ubiquity, only a few possess the ability to manipulate it." Just because you can't shoot fire out your fingertips that doesn't mean you don't have magic. While they may not be able to use it to cast spells, non-mages can still wield magic in other ways such as Templars who ingest lyrium in order to cast quasi-spells (protective barriers and magical annulments etc), dwarfs who cannot be mages can still create and use magical devices. The only difference between mages and non mages is how much mana they have.

 

Secondly Reaving is a form of blood magic. The blood they have to drink in order to become a reaver is analogous to the blood that grey wardens use to become grey wardens; both initiations involve the consumption of  ritually prepared blood. The joining is considered blood magic so why would the reaving initiation not be? "Reavers are warriors who use blood magic to give themselves power" Reavers use blood and pain (just like what blood mages use to fuel blood magic) in order to give themselves magical abilities such as being able to consume the life force of their enemies, which is magic.

 

Yes... There is such a thing as a mundane in Thedas. A mundane would be any person who are INCAPABLE of manipulating the magic without aid of literally magic made manifest (Lyrium). And no, something being consdiered Blood Magic does not actually make it Blood Magic. There is NO actual magic invovled with the preparation of the Dragon's blood. All you do is simply drink it. Hence it isn't Blood Magic.

[KainD]

 

Why shouldn't there be?

 

Because it is a dark fantasy. Morality system shouldn't exist, and shouldn't dictate any consequences. This is not a fairy tale where some actions are supposed to be punished by the plot. We didn't have any consequences in DA:O for killing innocents, for stealing, for causing genocides, and we shouldn't have any consonances for blood magic.