208 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because it is a dark fantasy. Morality system shouldn't exist, and shouldn't dictate any consequences. This is not a fairy tale where some actions are supposed to be punished by the plot. We didn't have any consequences in DA:O for killing innocents, for stealing, for causing genocides, and we shouldn't have any consonances for blood magic. 

Why do you presume that it is a moral consequence?

 

Are you saying that skin cancer is a moral consequence of sunbathing? Is it a moral consequence to get burned if you play with fire? No. They are simply consequences of actions taken to an extreme. 

 

And there were often consequences to rampantly killing characters, and furthermore the game should not have to explain to you exactly why mercilessly killing randoms is a bad thing.

[SerCambria358]

Because it is a dark fantasy. Morality system shouldn't exist, and shouldn't dictate any consequences. This is not a fairy tale where some actions are supposed to be punished by the plot. We didn't have any consequences in DA:O for killing innocents, for stealing, for causing genocides, and we shouldn't have any consonances for blood magic. 

If there's no morality system then that just takes the impact away from any decision we make. I dont see why it being a dark fantasy would change that

[KainD]

Why do you presume that it is a moral consequence?

 

Are you saying that skin cancer is a moral consequence of sunbathing? Is it a moral consequence to get burned if you play with fire? No. They are simply consequences of actions taken to an extreme. 

 

And there were often consequences to rampantly killing characters, and furthermore the game should not have to explain to you exactly why mercilessly killing randoms is a bad thing.

 

Well if blood mages are not punished for being evil, then there is no problem in being a special snowflake and getting away with it. The fact that blood magic is dangerous doesn't mean that it automatically ends badly for every practitioner, we have plenty of examples of blood mages that have lived unpossesed for many many years. So I don't see why PC has to be one of those people for whom blood magic has any consequences. 

[KainD]

If there's no morality system then that just takes the impact away from any decision we make. I dont see why it being a dark fantasy would change that

 

You decide what is impactful and what is not, no one else. 

[Quyk Sylvyr]

Because it is a dark fantasy. Morality system shouldn't exist, and shouldn't dictate any consequences. This is not a fairy tale where some actions are supposed to be punished by the plot. We didn't have any consequences in DA:O for killing innocents, for stealing, for causing genocides, and we shouldn't have any consonances for blood magic. 

 

 

The whole problem is that we instinctively know killing an innocent is bad/evil.  Your character may choose to do it anyway for one reason or another, but I think most reasonable people would without a doubt say "killing an innocent is bad/evil."  Your character may choose to balance that against another alternative that he/she considers worse, but the character still knows it's a balance of one evil vs. another.

 

The entire problem with blood magic is that the developers have not adequately conveyed that it's negative to use.  Look at these forums over the past couple years - there are a lot of people who have believed blood magic to be neutral. According to recent statements by Bioware, it's not supposed to be.  Until Bioware can come up with a decent way to show a player that it's "bad/wrong" in the same sense that we instinctively know killing an innocent is wrong/bad, I'm ok with them not making the PC a blood mage.  It would be really neat if they figured out a way to do so, but there's so much I'm excited about - I'll take what I can get.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well if blood mages are not punished for being evil, then there is no problem in being a special snowflake and getting away with it. The fact that blood magic is dangerous doesn't mean that it automatically ends badly for every practitioner, we have plenty of examples of blood mages that have lived unpossesed for many many years. So I don't see why PC has to be one of those people for whom blood magic has any consequences. 

So the player should also be able hold his breath indefinitely and suffer no consequences. Blood Magic is supposed to have consequences, and even the PC should not be able to escape them, since that would skewer the player's view of Blood Magic.

 

You decide what is impactful and what is not, no one else. 

Categorically false statement.

[SerCambria358]

You decide what is impactful and what is not, no one else. 

But it means nothing if the world around you doesnt react to it, the elder scrolls is a good example of this

[KainD]

The whole problem is that we instinctively know killing an innocent is bad/evil.  Your character may choose to do it anyway for one reason or another, but I think most reasonable people would without a doubt say "killing an innocent is bad/evil."  Your character may choose to balance that against another alternative that he/she considers worse, but the character still knows it's a balance of one evil vs. another.

 

Wrong. There is no such thing as an innocent. You can only be innocent of something in particular in the context. There is no such thing as evil/good outside of set rules and laws that vary from person to person. I don't care if someone thinks for themselves that blood magic is evil, that doesn't mean that it has to automatically have some negative consequences for the user. 

 

 

So the player should also be able hold his breath indefinitely and suffer no consequences. Blood Magic is supposed to have consequences, and even the PC should not be able to escape them, since that would skewer the player's view of Blood Magic.

 

No, but the player does far greater crazy feats and gets away with it, than merely being a successful blood mage, which there were plenty in history. 

There are blood mages in DA lore that have not suffered any consequences for using blood magic. 

 

 

Categorically false statement.

 

Purely your opinion. 

[KainD]

But it means nothing if the world around you doesnt react to it, the elder scrolls is a good example of this

 

Reaction is good, morality is not. There's a difference. 

[SerCambria358]

Reaction is good, morality is not. There's a difference. 

Morality dictates how people will react to you. If blood magic is involved, according to lore, you will experience consequences, thats not an opinionated statement. You say their shouldnt be consequences only based on your preference that this is a dark fantasy and there shouldnt be any consequences.

[KainD]

Morality dictates how people will react to you. If blood magic is involved, according to lore, you will experience consequences, thats not an opinionated statement. You say their shouldnt be consequences only based on your preference that this is a dark fantasy and there shouldnt be any consequences.

There are no given consequences for using blood magic, there are dangers. Dangers can be eluded and avoided. I am saying that protagonist shouldn't face the consequences because the protagonist is good at winning against odds. The protagonist should be better than the average person.

[Devtek]

Yes... There is such a thing as a mundane in Thedas. A mundane would be any person who are INCAPABLE of manipulating the magic without aid of literally magic made manifest (Lyrium). And no, something being consdiered Blood Magic does not actually make it Blood Magic. There is NO actual magic invovled with the preparation of the Dragon's blood. All you do is simply drink it. Hence it isn't Blood Magic.

 

The description is literally "warriors using blood magic" how is that not  blood magic.

[SerCambria358]

There are no given consequences for using blood magic, there are dangers. Dangers can be eluded and avoided. I am saying that protagonist shouldn't face the consequences because the protagonist is good at winning against odds. The protagonist should be better than the average person.

Yes there are given consequences, one is a constant need for more power. Blood magic no matter what has an evil nature whether you embrace it or not. You're setting your own standard for what a protagonist is and passing it as fact, protagonists experience loss against the odds all the time, being one shouldnt make you exempt from any consequences, thats neither realistic nor interesting if we avoided all issues simply because we're the player. Plus the concept of blood magic is that its corrupt by nature, avoiding that simply because we're the protag just ruins the point of it.

[Han Shot First]

Thats the thing, i dont see why necromancy wouldnt have negative consequences constantly dealing with unknown spirits to raise the dead which is already seen as taboo. 

 

It probably will.

 

I'm guessing that like blood magic there will be certain taboos associated with the use of necromancy, and that it will probably be an apostate school rather than one taught at the circles.

[SerCambria358]

Being a Reaver is blood magic in every way, you use the life force of your own body and your foes in order to better your own performance. That is Blood magic, by definition 

[KainD]

Yes there are given consequences, one is a constant need for more power. Blood magic no matter what has an evil nature whether you embrace it or not. You're setting your own standard for what a protagonist is and passing it as fact, protagonists experience loss against the odds all the time, being one shouldnt make you exempt from any consequences, thats neither realistic nor interesting if we avoided all issues simply because we're the player. Plus the concept of blood magic is that its corrupt by nature, avoiding that simply because we're the protag just ruins the point of it.

I don't consider corruption what you consider corruption. I think that a quest for power is a worthy one. I don't consider evil what you consider evil. Killing people for power is not a problem for me, that's not a consequence, that's something that can be done regardless of blood magic. I don't care about how others perceive me. I care more about death. Being possessed against ones will by a demon can be considered a negative consequence, and that can be avoided. What are the given negative consequences?

[Quyk Sylvyr]

Wrong. There is no such thing as an innocent. You can only be innocent of something in particular in the context. There is no such thing as evil/good outside of set rules and laws that vary from person to person. I don't care if someone thinks for themselves that blood magic is evil, that doesn't mean that it has to automatically have some negative consequences for the user. 

 

 

. . . I think we're getting more into philosophy at this point but I would argue that there are universal codes of ethics and some things such as killing without provocation can be considered universally evil.

 

Going back on point - assuming the PC constantly avoids the dangers of blood magic, it gives the illusion that those dangers/effects don't exist. This entire discussion began with you saying that blood magic doesn't have consequences. Fine if you don't want to call blood magic evil, but you can only make an informed decision about blood magic if you understand the consequences it generally has, no?

 

Therein lies Bioware's problem.  They need to show the general effects of blood magic without hitting a player over the head with a 2x4 and going "Your journey ends here.  You turned into an abomination because of your blood magic usage."

[KainD]

. . . I think we're getting more into philosophy at this point but I would argue that there are universal codes of ethics and some things such as killing without provocation can be considered universally evil.

 

Philosophy is wisdom. I don't believe in universal evil. 

 

Going back on point - assuming the PC constantly avoids the dangers of blood magic, it gives the illusion that those dangers/effects don't exist. This entire discussion began with you saying that blood magic doesn't have consequences. Fine if you don't want to call blood magic evil, but you can only make an informed decision about blood magic if you understand the consequences it generally has, no?

 

I don't need to face consequences personally to understand that dangers exist. The fact that you defeated the blight almost alone in DA:O made you think that any one warden can do it and that blight is not a danger? The fact that Hawke defeated the Arishok made you think that Qunari are not a serious threat? No. 

I don't need personal negative consequences to understand that blood magic is dangerous, I just don't want to play a scrub that is not powerful/smart enough to not fall pray to those dangers. 

[SerCambria358]

I don't consider corruption what you consider corruption. I think that a quest for power is a worthy one. I don't consider evil what you consider evil. Killing people for power is not a problem for me, that's not a consequence, that's something that can be done regardless of blood magic. I don't care about how others perceive me. I care more about death. Being possessed against ones will by a demon can be considered a negative consequence, and that can be avoided. What are the given negative consequences?

You're mixing up personal opinion with shared belief. You say there are no consequences for blood magic only because you personally dont mind the corruption that follows. You cant debate general ideas only based on your opinions.

[KainD]

You're mixing up personal opinion with shared belief. You say there are no consequences for blood magic only because you personally dont mind the corruption that follows. You cant debate general ideas only based on your opinions.

 

I debate negative consequences, ones that impact the individual in an unhealthy way directly. There is no point talking about it at all then. Everything has consequences, eating an apple has consequences. What's the point discussing it? 

[SerCambria358]

I debate negative consequences, ones that impact the individual in an unhealthy way directly. There is no point talking about it at all then. Everything has consequences, eating an apple has consequences. What's the point discussing it? 

Because apples dont naturally give you a desire for power. Same way some people welcome death despite death being labelled as a negative outcome. Just because YOU dont consider some of the effects of BM to be negative doesnt mean its labelled as so by the majority of players. Reality is most players consider those effects to be negative

[KainD]

Because apples dont naturally give you a desire for power. Same way some people welcome death despite death being labelled as a negative outcome. Just because YOU dont consider some of the effects of BM to be negative doesnt mean its labelled as so by the majority of players. Reality is most players consider those effects to be negative

Fair enough but nothing can make anyone want power, you either want it or you don't. Infact you have to want power in the first place to start practicing blood magic, because that's what it gives. There is no such thing as corruption, just thing that people disagree on.

[Devtek]

You're mixing up personal opinion with shared belief. You say there are no consequences for blood magic only because you personally dont mind the corruption that follows. You cant debate general ideas only based on your opinions.

 

To be fair, shared beliefs are regularly wrong and misguided. Common belief is different from verified truths.

 

Fair enough but nothing can make anyone want power, you either want it or you don't. Infact you have to want power in the first place to start practicing blood magic, because that's what it gives. There is no such thing as corruption, just thing that people disagree on.

 

There are plenty of examples of mages who never wanted to use blood magic, using blood magic because they have no option left other than being killed. There are also plenty of examples of people who never wanted power, getting it, and then being corrupted by it...

[SerCambria358]

Fair enough but nothing can make anyone want power, you either want it or you don't. Infact you have to want power in the first place to start practicing blood magic, because that's what it gives. There is no such thing as corruption, just thing that people disagree on.

Thats pretty much false in every way. Magic can make you want something against your will, BM will make you crave it despite not initially wanting that power. Blood magic in a lot of cases is only used as a means of defense of escape with Templar oppression, not a desire for power over all. I dont get how any of what you said concluded that corruption doesnt exist.

 

An example of why people give in to blood magic: