8 réponses à ce sujet

[RoraM]

Dear BioWare Devs,

 

Thank you very much for having an Asian NPC in DA:O.  Could you please include more?

 

x 

 

Rora

[Allan Schumacher]

How about you get some of these asian countries to show some multi-ethnic representation first though, before you go proselytizing bioware? Maybe get japan, china, and korea to tone down the racist stereotyping and blatant nationalist pot shooting in their biggest exported and self-consumed media while you're at it?

 

It's perfectly valid for a poster to ask for them from us without worrying about what other game companies are doing.

 

There's no need (nor reason) for someone to go anywhere else but a game forum of a game (or game company) that they buy games from to ask for these requests.  Further, that other companies may be worse than us doesn't mean that we're exempt from further requests ourselves.

[Allan Schumacher]

Things are getting a bit heated here.  It's late and I just finished up dealing with a bunch of ****.  If I'm understanding things here, these are the perspectives?

 

 

1) There shouldn't be asian looking people because it doesn't make sense for that appearance to exist because of genetics?

2) There should be asian looking people because it's a fantasy game and I value that type of inclusion over adherence to realism?
 

 

Is that about right?

[Allan Schumacher]

This.

 

If things were getting a bit heated, from my part it was frustration over that position being repeatedly misconstrued as an argument against a diverse cast. I'm actually in agreement with those who say they would like to see an Asian character in the next game. I just disagree with some of them on how that should be implemented. 

 

Okay fair enough.

 

This does seem to create a bias against a particular type of character portrayal though, doesn't it?  (especially when looked at in the aggregate of all gaming, not just one game?)

 

 

EDIT: My query was more "are we at a point where we need to agree to disagree?"  I can understand both perspectives, and I don't want to see people getting increasingly upset with each other because they disagree with the other person's perspective.

 

Disclaimer: I'm in the camp of I have no problems with their being more diversity and that it doesn't necessarily need to have a good reason for existing, mostly because creating a whole new culture is significantly more costly and there's the risk of it being subconsciously created in a stereotypical way of our own asian cultures.  One advantage of having them in "just because" reinforces the perspective that how someone looks doesn't mean very much for how their character is.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 juin 2014 - 07:31 .

[Allan Schumacher]

The vast majority of games and movies are marketed to an American audience. Even the majority of Japanese games have primarily white antagonists (often with some small features hinting at maybe being 1/8th Japanese) so there aren't a whole host of games with non-white casts we can draw from.

 

But good job refuting a perfectly valid argument against your point by.... doing nothing?

 

I think this is the primary motivator for "add it just because" is.  Because if we continue to force ourselves to dig up reasons (when we really don't for other people), we continue to under represent.

 

I don't think it's necessary for white people to be so pervasive. 

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem for the one camp (inclusion but w/ a story / setting) is that we don't like "token" or "random" people just turning up and there are probably plenty of examples of worlds where there are just one or two "different" people show up and their characters end up being shoe-horned into being the "different" person simply because they are the only one there that is actually different.

 

I used to feel this way too.  For some reason, I stopped.  I don't like "token" characters either.  But if mandating that the mere existence of non-white person means "token" or "random" diversity turning up, then we're making a non-trivial political statement.  It creates an arbitrary and perhaps unfair bias, especially when looking at the entire catalogue of gaming (and entertainment) in aggregate.  So I find pointing at Jade Empire and going "see" is a bit misleading, because it's one game.  And for a white dude like me, it adds a novelty factor.  Would I be okay with it if ALL games were asian people?  Well I have the benefit of not being put in that position.

 

 

 

 

Having a whole new culture that introduces a compelling new addition to the world is something that is far more interesting from a story perspective.  Would I play DAx if you (the grand you here) randomly sprinkled people of various earthly visages into the game where there wasn't any before? Yes I would play (my enjoyment of a game is not dependent on the looks of a random npc or spikes as some crazy people on these boards seem to get catatonic about) it but it would be weird, just weird. The same kind of weird I felt when Isabella, the elves, dwarves looked completely / noticeably different in DA2. I still played the game multiple times and I still enjoyed it.  I just thought some things about it were weird.

 

There's an important distinction here that needs to be separated.  Of course having a full new culture would be great, because everyone wants more content.

 

That said, I see a disconnect with your statement.  If your enjoyment is not dependent on the looks of a random NPC, then that tells me that everything you've said so far isn't true.  Because if you're unaffected by the looks of a random NPC, what you're now saying to me is "I don't care what you do with the skin colour of the characters."  But then you say it's "weird."

 

 

 

 

In this regard, this is the reason why it would be nice to have a story based explanation for their being there.  The rest of the humans don't even need to comment on it because they could have been their all along (like the qunari). It would simply be nice to know that those people (of whatever variety) actually had a place where they came from rather than just popping into existence when they were not there before.  If the previous media had people of random ethnicity just sprinkled through the world then this wouldn't be an issue for me; its only because this has not been the case across 2 games (more if you count the social games), four books (where descriptions were available), and a number of comics.  The world exists in a certain state; can it be changed without reason? Of course, an explanation would just make more sense to me.

 

I actually like that we do not handicap ourselves based on the technical aspects of the previous games.  The Eclipse engine is pretty poor by today's standards.  I know I also was blind to the issue so the tendency to go with "normal" (for me, in Edmonton, is definitely white) is a big thing.  Especially given that we could make arguments that what we saw in DAO and DA2 was such a small (tiny, really) slice of the population.

 

There's also the personal aspect.  For instance, the inclusion of racial diversity in DAI wouldn't be something that bothered me.  I wouldn't find it weird.  So why am I okay with it, but it's something that you find "weird."  Is it on us to make sure you don't feel weird, or is it on you to let yourself not feel weird by it?  Because I used to feel the same way as you, but now I don't.  I do not get the impression that you're not bothered about it.  It really reads like it would bother you, it's just that it wouldn't be a deal breaker.  Am I incorrect in reading it this way?

 

 

The thing is, for me, I see people suggest that we're "checking boxes to make sure we have some sort of diversity quotient" (tell that to those that are upset about a 6-3 potential companion split).  It's more coming down to (what many of the same people say....) does it matter for the story?  I see so many people make disparaging remarks about how they don't care what someone looks like (directed in a way that, therefore, other people shouldn't care either!).  But if they truly don't care, then we could add diversity.

 

An advantage of Dragon Age is that the physical appearances of a particular group are not actually tied to any particular culture.  As such, it often seems like "there isn't really a good reason NOT to mix it up."  And sometimes it's just about being more conscious about it all.  I'm a white person, so someone saying to me "draw a woman" means there's a decent chance I'll immediately draw a white woman (aside: reasonable arguments could be made that more than just white people may do this, and that reads as a symptom to a subtle problem to me).  But when I learn that I have more freedom, and I simply have some exposure for some people that say "hey what about this?" it plants thoughts in my mind: "maybe I'll draw a black woman."  Because, why not?

[Allan Schumacher]

Because the CC is there purely as benefit for the player.There is no carry over into anyone elses game. The PC also exists as an entity apart,more and more obviously. Try casting blood magic in front of a Templar as Hawke and nothing happens. Yet there is no justification like in DA:O. 

 

While you may be able to make any sort of character, as far as the game is concerned, you are default Hawke and no mention of your look or imagined race, will ever be acknowledged.

 

How often do NPCs comment on the colour of another NPCs skin in our games?

[Allan Schumacher]

Unless your saying regardless of what the character looks like they are always from Fereldan and taken as being from Feraldan ? While they don't comment on the skin colour specifically, they comment on nationality and often. It's usually quite a big part of the characters background. 

 

If your saying that regardless of the characters skin colour, they are always the character, then that's just what I said.

 

Are we agreeing then, that it doesn't matter if we add racial diversity, since it needn't have any influence on the nationalities of those that make up those people?

 

I just bring it up because you cite the omission of any acknowledgement of the player's look as being exclusive towards the player because the player is a special snowflake.  As such, your post comes across as "they can let people make the character look like anything because the player specifically is never acknowledged." (sidenote: we could easily restrict it, too.  In other words, the inclusion of people of colour in the character creator can be used as evidence that a Ferelden person can, in fact, have non-white skin and still be considered Ferelden.  And I think a great many people on these boards would totally use the "it fits the story" if we did restrict the character creator as well).

 

So I'm curious if the games actually makes any reference among species about the intraspecies "race."  (i.e. I know the difference exists between Dwarves, Elves, Humans, and Qunari.  Does it ever happen among any particular race).  I actually couldn't say for sure.  I find the fanbase is significantly more knowledgeable about these types of details than myself.

 

Because if it doesn't, I'm not sure how relevant your earlier response is because, in this case, the player character isn't actually receiving any special treatment in regards to not having the colour of their character's skin discussed.

[Allan Schumacher]

As I said CC only applies to a specific persons game so it really makes no difference to anyone else. If it makes someone happy to see an analog of themselves in the game by only changing their game, then you lose nothing either way.

And as I said, if the colour of the skin is never acknowledged elsewhere, this particular exception doesn't actually exist for the PC. Unless you're suggesting that if we had more diversity, we'd need the in game characters to actually acknowledge the differences (a position I would disagree with).

It seems, to me, that we've opted to use the dwarves/elves/humans/qunari as our racial divide, rather than real life examples.

[Allan Schumacher]

So , basically, the whole world should go bankrupt by makeing useless productions that doesn't pay off so people dont "feel" something? Thats abit obtuse. I bet white people aren't included or considered in many Chinese or Japanese or Kenyan productions. Simply because white folks dont have any monetary clout over there. 

 

Besides, any private company should have the right to discriminate against whomever it wants. Its not up to you or me to say how an entrepeneur should run his business. No matter what people "feel", you should have no right to bankrupt someone or force someone to serve you. But we shall see. Telling people you don't want to make gay wedding cakes is illeagal someplaces in USA. Maybe, one glorius day, bioware will be forced to  include in its games the following:

 

10% women

10% men

10% homosexual

10% coloured

10% jews

10% muslims

10% redheads

10% lefthanded

10% great-grandchildren of Genghis Khan

10% people who have never been to New York

 

In the name of equality and multiculture and nobody feeling left out or discriminated against.

 

Who determines who is white and who isn't?

 

The issue isn't with a single game.  I have no issue with a game featuring entirely a particular race (whether that race be white or otherwise).  Also, for all the people that tell me "it doesn't matter what people look like" I'm not convinced that it'd be a bankrupting move.

 

It's not a checklist of meeting desired quotas for any particular game.