709 réponses à ce sujet

[Mockingword]

So you don't want an actual recognized (new) race of people; you just want Asian-looking NPCs?

 

Well that's an entirely different argument. Why are any of us arguing this?

Well, they were never going to be "Asian", because Thedas doesn't have an Asia. Just like the white characters aren't "British", even though many of them have accents that we associate with British people.

 

I don't particularly care how Asian-looking people get to Thedas, but I don't think writing a whole new race is necessary at all.

[Boss Fog]

As do I. I think most of us arguing the lore point had the issue with it being something added to Thedas itself. It's entirely conceivable that there would be other places outside of Thedas where these people could come from. It is, after all, just a continent; not the whole world.

 

Although...have we ever meet anyone from outside of Thedas, in-game?

The Qunari.

[ladyoflate]

The Qunari.

 

Humans in general.

[TKavatar]

The Qunari.

Technically their ancestors were the ones who came from lands outside Thedas. All the Qunari we've met were born and raised in Thedas.

[Fast Jimmy]

"We" can't interchange anything with anything, because we are not the writers, and I don't see what My Little Pony has to do with anything.
 
Certainly nothing is stopping David Gaider from having all the party members spontaneously turn into ponies. It wouldn't even be that farfetched. Shapeshifting is an established possibility in the canon of Thedas.
 
What I am saying, the only thing I am saying, is that fantasy worlds are not obligated to mimic the real world in any respect, and you shouldn't assume that they do.

You do realize that your request to include a real world ethnicity, using the only reasons as "some players might like it" is pretty hypocritical to the point you are trying to make?

[Boss Fog]

Technically their ancestors were the ones who came from lands outside Thedas. All the Qunari we've met were born and raised in Thedas.

And is Par Vollen technically considered to be part of Thedas?

[Mockingword]

What you are saying is that lore does not matter, fiction is totally bogus unless it happens to conform to the ideas you want and that nothing should have to make any sense if any single potential consumer of the fiction might think something is nice.

THAT argument has zero weight. Yes, there could exist Asians. But NO, they should not be introduced in a way that contradicts lore entirely (like suddenly having all of Antiva be Asian despite us meeting and seeing multiple instances of these people looking more similar to Fereldens than anything).

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

Lore doesn't matter. But I haven't said anything about fiction. Lore and fiction are not the same thing. "Lore" is what we call the fictional texts that exist within the fictional universe we are reading about. Sometimes lore is "true" within the context of that fictional universe. Sometimes it is false.

 

Since no one (not even the author, necessarily) has the means to divine the "true" lore from the "false" lore, and since no lore will ever contain the sum of all knowledge about that universe, you can't use it as a reliable basis to definitively determine what is or isn't possible within that fictional universe. And when someone tries to do that, most of the time they're just making assumptions about that world, based on their knowledge of our world.

 

This is not a difficult concept to grasp!

[Mockingword]

You do realize that your request to include a real world ethnicity, using the only reasons as "some players might like it" is pretty hypocritical to the point you are trying to make?

You do realize that when people ask for "Asians" to be in Thedas, they are not literally asking for the Earth continent of Asia to spontaneously pop into existence in the middle of the ocean?

 

Not that there would be anything wrong with that.

[TKavatar]

And is Par Vollen technically considered to be part of Thedas?

Yes it is.

[Fast Jimmy]

You do realize that when people ask for "Asians" to be in Thedas, they are not literally asking for the Earth continent of Asia to spontaneously pop into existence in the middle of the ocean?
 
Not that there would be anything wrong with that.

And you do realize that asking that NPCs mirror the appearance of real world people just because some players might like it is the very epitome of having the fantasy world mimic the real world for no in-game reason at all?

[Boss Fog]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

Lore doesn't matter. But I haven't said anything about fiction. Lore and fiction are not the same thing. "Lore" is what we call the fictional texts that exist within the fictional universe we are reading about. Sometimes lore is "true" within the context of that fictional universe. Sometimes it is false.

 

Since no one (not even the author, necessarily) has the means to divine the "true" lore from the "false" lore, and since no lore will ever contain the sum of all knowledge about that universe, you can't use it as a reliable basis to definitively determine what is or isn't possible within that fictional universe. And when someone tries to do that, most of the time they're just making assumptions about that world, based on their knowledge of our world.

 

This is not a difficult concept to grasp!

Stop speaking in absolutes because lore isn't defined as what you just attempted to define it as.  Lore could be traditions and knowledge of the Dragon Age world passed around from the creators of the Dragon Age world; it doesn't HAVE to mean in game. 

 

So you're saying the creators/writers of the Dragon Age world don't have the right to make statements regarding what is actually true and what isn't in regards to the story they have created?  What a load of ****.  If anyone has the right to do this, it's them. 

[Mockingword]

Stop speaking in absolutes because lore isn't defined as what you just attempted to define it as.  Lore could be traditions and knowledge of the Dragon Age world passed around from the creators of the Dragon Age world; it doesn't HAVE to mean in game. 

 

So you're saying the creators/writers of the Dragon Age world don't have the right to make statements regarding what is actually true and what isn't in regards to the story they have created?  What a load of ****.  If anyone has the right to do this, it's them. 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I said writers don't necessarily know every little detail of the worlds they create. As in they didn't think about xyz, because xyz isn't ****** important.

 

****.

[Mockingword]

And you do realize that asking that NPCs mirror the appearance of real world people just because some players might like it is the very epitome of having the fantasy world mimic the real world for no in-game reason at all?

Yes.

 

BioWare's not obligated to do it, but that doesn't mean I can't ask. The great thing about fantasy is that anything is possible.

 

And since every single NPCs in Thedas already mirrors the appearance of real-world people (even the Qunari still have the same basic shape as real-world humans), the request is not the least bit unreasonable.

[Boss Fog]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I said writers don't necessarily know every little detail of the worlds they create. As in they didn't think about xyz, because xyz isn't ****** important.

 

****.

"Since no one (not even the author, necessarily) has the means to divine the "true" lore from the "false" lore,"

 

Then say what you mean.  Don't say something then come back afterwards and say "that's not what I said!"  Saying someone doesn't have the means to do something means they aren't equipped or capable of the feat.  Saying they don't know simply means they don't know.  Even then, it is well within their means to figure it out.  .

[In Exile]

And you do realize that asking that NPCs mirror the appearance of real world people just because some players might like it is the very epitome of having the fantasy world mimic the real world for no in-game reason at all?

NPCs do mirror the appearance of real world people. It just so happens that the appearance they mimic is of a particular group, for no real reason other than the developers wanting the characters to look like that. 

[Mockingword]

"Since no one (not even the author, necessarily) has the means to divine the "true" lore from the "false" lore,"

 

Then say what you mean.  Don't say something then come back afterwards and say "that's not what I said!"  Saying someone doesn't have the means to do something means they aren't equipped or capable of the feat.  Saying they don't know simply means they don't know.  Even then, it is well within their means to figure it out.  .

Oh for ****'s sake. I did say exactly what I meant.

 

The author doesn't necessarily have the means to divine the true lore from the false lore.

 

Especially when "the author" is actually multiple people who all have different opinions and theories about the ambiguities that are present within the setting that they have worked together to create.

 

LIKE WITH DRAGON AGE, FOR INSTANCE!

[Boss Fog]

Oh for ****'s sake. I did say exactly what I meant.

 

The author doesn't necessarily have the means to divine the true lore from the false lore.

 

Especially when "the author" is actually multiple people who all have different opinions and theories about the ambiguities that are present within the setting that they have worked together to create.

And what's stopping multiple people from sitting down and figuring **** out and coming to an agreement?  Yes, these people do in every way shape or form have the means to determine the true lore from the false lore.  I guess your argument now is that the world of Thedas and all it's rules and lore settings are completely subject to the whims of chaos?  

[Mockingword]

And what's stopping multiple people from sitting down and figuring **** out and coming to an agreement?

Human nature. As a poster on an internet forum, you of all people should be acutely aware that "coming to an agreement" frequently simply does not happen.

[Boss Fog]

Human nature. As a poster on an internet forum, you of all people should be acutely aware that "coming to an agreement" frequently simply does not happen.

I'm talking about professionals whose job very well might consist of "coming to an agreement."  Not a bunch of angry nerds arguing over how a fictional world should be structured.

[Fast Jimmy]

NPCs do mirror the appearance of real world people. It just so happens that the appearance they mimic is of a particular group, for no real reason other than the developers wanting the characters to look like that.

True.

But in the process of the developers creating their game world, they set up a setting, one in which we are fairly confident of the geographic location as well as the overall generic appearance of every major nation across the continent. Aside from a few groups we've not seen or met extensively (such as the people from Anders, the Fex and Kal-Sharok) or small pockets that could be hidden and not part of the larger known pieces of Thedas' population, we know how the setting and lore has established they look.

To change how these people look would be to change the lore, which is a path writers don't want to walk down, nor readers like to tread. Can a group of people be introduced within the setting that we have not seen or met previously that look Asian? Sure. But to suddenly make NPCs take on physical characteristics vastly different than the rest of the established population for no other reason than to change the fictional world to be more PC to the real world is not something that should be done lightly.

[DaySeeker]

It seems like there are two main camps here: one says throw Asians in -it's fantasy and the other says the other cultures and races represented in the game so far have lore and history, including Asians deserves the same amount of care.

The two sides are not coming to an accord.

[Falcon084]

Nuff said.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You do realize that when people ask for "Asians" to be in Thedas, they are not literally asking for the Earth continent of Asia to spontaneously pop into existence in the middle of the ocean?

 

Not that there would be anything wrong with that.

That would be funny to see, actually.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So, the difference boils down to adding a Codex entry.

 

Yes, but generally since people don't like ti when developers do a half assed job at stuff, some more things besides just people with yellow skin and slanted eyes would be appreciated. Better then them just being in game suddenly just cause with noting unique or interesting about them besides their physical appearance.

[Nefla]

No, she doesn't. the existence of 'white Isabela' mods can pretty much prove that if you need semantics, but no she doesn't look white because she isn't white. Mariah Carey 'looks white' but she's still a black woman. There's this whole thing that used to happen because of more ingrained systematic racism called 'white passing' and it doesn't mean the people who did it were white just because they 'looked white' if people expected them to be white.

Mariah Carey is half white so it makes sense that she would look white-ish. She looks biracial which she is. You'll notice that in the "white Isabella mod" changes only her skintone, not her facial features. You could not change Vivienne's skintone and have her look white, she would still look black but pale skinned. Most people had no idea Isabella was supposed to be black in either game. You don't have that same question with Jacob, Anderson, or Vivienne. My point was that before DA:I no one looked distinct, everyone looked primarily generic and white and maybe mixed with another race if you squint. If the single character who was supposed to be black didn't look recognizably black, and the first recognizably black character we are given only shows up in the third game then why can't there be Asians in the third game also? Why does there need to be an explanation as so many people want? Why can't it just be "people other than white exist and we are now able to model them correctly."