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To use the phrase you seem to like, that ship has already sailed.And you do realize that asking that NPCs mirror the appearance of real world people just because some players might like it is the very epitome of having the fantasy world mimic the real world for no in-game reason at all?
At least for DA2 that's because people have no real means of reliably adjusting proportions of head morphs beyond skin tone, makeup and such. It doesn't change the fact the character's facial features are close to these of black characters, including the one you recognize -- Vivianne.You'll notice that in the "white Isabella mod" changes only her skintone, not her facial features.
Except elves and dwarves, who as far as we know always existed. And trees, and rocks, and animals, and dirt, and fire, and water, and air. There's certainly no lore justification given for the existence of white humans in the vast majority of "story-driven experiences". We just take it for granted that the honky is the default dominant species in pretty much every fantasy world. Even if there is "lore justification" for it, it's either ridiculously flimsy (like, let's face it, all lore justification is) or the audience isn't actually privy to it, so it's irrelevant.
This is where I call bullshit on your argument here, at the beginning, to show how from the base up, your argument was flimsy and doesn't hold up.
We have lore explanations of elves and dwarves, from their own peoples beliefs at least. The elves and dwarves have a diverse and rich culture about them that has been made clear from the get go, and even has been a massive driving point in the games. Why don't we see a lot of dwarves on the surface? Cause they view leaving underground as akin to being worth less then the lowest scum in their city-state, and so wouldn't want to leave for fear of social repercussions. Why don't the elves have a kingdom of their own? Because they declared war on the dominant religion of the continent and payed the price when the others of the faith retaliated.
There are depths of lore that play into these races, none of them were just plopped out of no where with no backstory and nothing interesting about them, or if their origins are mysterious, that is given credence in lore and because a driving factor in the lore on their race. Which is where humans come into play.
The humans supposedly arrived to the country at some unknown point from some unknown place, supposedly. They set up an empire in the far north, that stretched the span of the continent, then collapsed under the weight of a religious based revolt. What we do know though, is that these countries have all had established facts about them that make them unique, geographically, culturally, and in terms of physical appearance. We know those of the west tend to be of a darker and more Mediterranean-esque both in culture and appearance, given the spanish and italian influences that went into rivian and antiva respectively. We know those to the south are lighter and fairer then those to the west, or the north, which is lighter still then the west. More importantly however as skin color doesn't define a character, each of these places have their own cultures, which play heavily into the setting and the lore. Nationalism is alive and well in dragon age, and as a by product, in how people precieve races accorss thedas.
So claiming that because people want an asian culture as well as asain race included, instead of just asian looking people in game, is an excuse for racism, is completely absurd. What you are demanding in your rushed job option, is actually more racially insensitive then what your opponents call for. You are saying that asains matter so little, that you can just slap a few european based npcs with skin tone and facial features, and call it a day, instead of giving asains a full dragon age worthy experience. You're calling for short changing them, and snapping at everyone who doesn't fall in line to your crazed demands.
I believe Mockinword's point is, in all that lore there's no shred of justification why these Thedas humans just happen to look like white ****** sapiens from planet Earth in our own universe. Which makes objection to having also some Thedas humans that happen to look like ****** sapiens inhabiting Asia of planet Earth in our own universe "because no lore" downright comical.The humans supposedly arrived to the country at some unknown point from some unknown place, supposedly. They set up an empire in the far north, that stretched the span of the continent, then collapsed under the weight of a religious based revolt. What we do know though, is that these countries have all had established facts about them that make them unique, geographically, culturally, and in terms of physical appearance. We know those of the west tend to be of a darker and more Mediterranean-esque both in culture and appearance, given the spanish and italian influences that went into rivian and antiva respectively. We know those to the south are lighter and fairer then those to the west, or the north, which is lighter still then the west. More importantly however as skin color doesn't define a character, each of these places have their own cultures, which play heavily into the setting and the lore. Nationalism is alive and well in dragon age, and as a by product, in how people precieve races accorss thedas.
At least for DA2 that's because people have no real means of reliably adjusting proportions of head morphs beyond skin tone, makeup and such. It doesn't change the fact the character's facial features are close to these of black characters, including the one you recognize -- Vivianne.
I disagree, and her DA2 facial proportions much more closely match mine (and I'm white) than Vivienne's. Either way, the majority did not recognize her as black in either game and she's the only "black" character we've had so far. Like I keep saying which keeps getting ignored in favor of continually arguing opinions over one character's facial features: this leaves room for Asian characters. Even if Isabella looked unmistakably black, no one else did. Not a single shopkeep or mercenary. "Hey guys, the old engine left us unable to model decent looking non white characters but now we can do a better job and you will be able to recognize different races including black and Asian."
If there's some actual data on how the "majority" perceived race of Isabela, I'd appreciate the link. I'm not aware of any study dealing with that.Either way, the majority did not recognize her as black in either game and she's the only "black" character we've had so far.
I believe Mockinword's point is, in all that lore there's no shred of justification why these Thedas humans just happen to look like white ****** sapiens from planet Earth in our own universe. Which makes objection to having also some Thedas humans that happen to look like ****** sapiens inhabiting Asia of planet Earth in our own universe "because no lore" downright comical.
edit: awww, Latin gets censored.
They're called humans. Why wouldn't humans look like humans? Nothing says tevinter was strictly white or even white at all when it started. What we know is what they turned into, which is a multitude of colors and facial features depending on their geography as they settled into thedas. Assuming they were all white is just for the sake of creating a false standard to claim racism over.
And nobody is objecting to having asain human equivilants in thedas. Nobody. What's happening here is that some people want actual effort put into the game so that these guys have a unique identity, just like rivian has its own unique identity, just like antiva has its own, just like how ferelden, orlais, nevarra, anderfels, par vollen, tevinter, and even the chasind have their own unqiue identities about them along with at least one unique feature to them that sets them apart from one another. And because people want actual work put into the inclusion of a new nationality being added in, which means more time, the impatient knee jerkers are coming out decrying everyone who doesn't want it done right now in a rushed and completely apathetic way of being racists and not wanting it at all.
Because the lore states Rivani people can be dark skinned enough to be analogous to real life black people (I believe one of the Codex entries say skin tone can range to "ebony" in Rivain).
The lore does not state, nor have we seen in game, any group or ethnicity which is analogous to real life stereotypical East Asian phenotypes.
That's the difference.
I saw that line in the wiki ("The Rivaini have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony") but it seems to come from a post of DG, not from the Codex. So, it seems it would be enough if DG comes by and say something like "don't assume that just because Cassandra is white all nevarrans are. In fact, a big part of Nevarra's population is east asian looking".
Also, I was curious about all this, so I've been looking for what the codex actually says about ethnical diversity in Thedas, and I didn't find anything. So if there's actually something in the codex about it, I'd appreciate it if someone could point to me to the right entry, because I'd like to see for myself how rigid it actually is. (only for curiosity's sake, I admit I don't think it's going to make me change my mind)
I believe Mockinword's point is, in all that lore there's no shred of justification why these Thedas humans just happen to look like white ****** sapiens from planet Earth in our own universe. Which makes objection to having also some Thedas humans that happen to look like ****** sapiens inhabiting Asia of planet Earth in our own universe "because no lore" downright comical.
edit: awww, Latin gets censored.
Because when it was written it roughly conformed to Europe. Fereldan (Britain or more England) Orlais (France) Rivain (Spain).Then they started to tinker with it for reasons.
You know I wonder how people would react if you made Kal-Sharok an equivalent for east asia.
all ferelden have a size of britain so all KNOWN Thedas(we know that Thedas is far more that map territorys) have a size of ~7-8 britains so why do you say that there is no enought of black or asian in shown kingdoms of so small northen territory
this is like to say Tolkien that there is not enought harads in rohan 
You know I wonder how people would react if you made Kal-Sharok an equivalent for east asia.
I, personally, would react totally fine to it. The world we have been exposed to has not had any significant contact with Kal-Sharok in centuries. Plenty of time for differing physical traits to have developed between the two groups, not to mention cultural ones.
My only problem would be, as an example, if they went back to Orzammar and suddenly there were multi-ethnic dwarves of all shades of the rainbow walking around, giving only a "What? Of course there are Asian dwarves in Orzammar - duh!"
That's a problem.
So, it seems it would be enough if DG comes by and say something like "don't assume that just because Cassandra is white all nevarrans are. In fact, a big part of Nevarra's population is east asian looking".
Well, when you are the one who does the bulk of the heavy lifting when creating the framework for an entire fictional world that now exists across multiple forms of media, you do get the power that is the oh-so-familiar "Word of God" whenever you weigh in on how the world works and is designed.
And, on that note, I thought I would include two posts by David Gaider that either imply or explicitly state that the inclusion of real-life races that don't exist in the Thedas lore today would be possible, but would be visited with an eye towards making it lore friendly, instead of just sprinkling ethnicities across the general populace without any explanation or reasoning.
http://forum.bioware...ups/?p=14282853
All that said, trying to squeeze every real-world ethnicity onto one continent simply isn't going to happen. There are, however, places in Dragon Age other than the continent of Thedas... should we ever go to those places, one should expect to see other sorts of people there. And there's nothing stopping the occasional traveler from far away coming into the game for plot reasons, though that's going to be exceptional simply because traffic between the continents is not exactly great. If it was, you'd expect people to be talking about "the lands beyond Thedas" a trifle more, wouldn't you? That could, however, always change.
http://forum.bioware...-so/?p=12941453
With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.
They're called humans. Why wouldn't humans look like humans?
You and I must be reading two different threads, if yours has nobody stating there's no room for Asian-like characters in the game because reasons.And nobody is objecting to having asain human equivilants in thedas. Nobody. What's happening here is that some people want actual effort put into the game so that these guys have a unique identity (..)
Which still doesn't address the raised point that there's no reasons provided by the game lore why it should actually do that.Because when it was written it roughly conformed to Europe.
These guys call themselves "people". Why don't they look exactly like the people of Earth?
Having two things in different universes named the same doesn't mean they're actually one and the same and have to look identical.
Don't try and bullshit me with that weak ass argument. People and Humans are two different things, and trying to say that human and people are the same thing is just damn disingenuous.
That's like saying automobile means the same thing as motor bike. They don't, one is much more specific then the other. Elves use the word people, dwarves use the word people, but that doesn't make them humans now does it?
The word human is a highly species specific designation, and in dragon age, humans are called humans in the lore, in world, and it is recognized as a separate species, so don't try to pull your dirty tricks here.
Which still doesn't address the raised point that there's no reasons provided by the game lore why it should actually do that.
It is basically, as Fast Jimmy put it, "mirroring the appearance of real world people just because some players might like it". Which is supposedly a big no-no, but apparently only as long as it involves someone other than white dudes.
If people wanted more white guys in jade empire just cause, I'd have a pretty big ass bone to pick with them as well. If something isn't in the established setting, it needs to be established to be added. Its that simple, and trying to caricature people as being racist for not supporting half assed inclusion efforts is stupid. No other word for it that isn't more insulting.
Which still doesn't address the raised point that there's no reasons provided by the game lore why it should actually do that.It is basically, as Fast Jimmy put it, "mirroring the appearance of real world people just because some players might like it". Which is supposedly a big no-no, but apparently only as long as it involves someone other than white dudes.
If there's some actual data on how the "majority" perceived race of Isabela, I'd appreciate the link. I'm not aware of any study dealing with that.
(it's consensus fallacy either way, but this kind of statistics interests me)
The fact that it had to be clarified by David Gaider should tell you that enough people had no clue she was supposed to be black, but way to ignore my point yet again.
They could also just make Jade Empire 2 already, that'd make me happy anyways.
You make a strawman out of my point literally a sentence after calling the argument you can't address directly "weak ass" and "bulshitting you"? That's precious.Don't try and bullshit me with that weak ass argument. People and Humans are two different things, and trying to say that human and people are the same thing is just damn disingenuous.
I'm not ignoring your point. I was trying to determine whether there was some actual data backing your statement, or if it was a conjecture in lack of better argument.The fact that it had to be clarified by David Gaider should tell you that enough people had no clue she was supposed to be black, but way to ignore my point yet again.
Given these statements have nothing to do with the particular tangent you chose to quote (that's whether defaulting Thedas "humans" to white dudes was arbitrary decision without any real justification of it in the lore etc) ... yes?So... we're completely glossing over the statement made by the Lead Writer of the series and primary force in creating Thedas (and its current non-existence of Asians) that state exactly how they would handle other ethnicities IF they were to include them at a later point in the series...? Yes?
Alright then.
I'm not ignoring your point. I was trying to determine whether there was some actual data backing your statement, or if it was a conjecture in lack of better argument.
"Enough people to make the lead writer speak out" and "majority" are hardly the same thing. I believe you're well aware on this forums in particular even a few loud idiots can get a response from Mr.Gaider, if only they are persistent enough.
No, there was no 3rd party scientific study conducted on a focus group of people on whether or not Isabella looked black. Shocking I know. What answer were you expecting? I've never heard her referred to as black by anyone before David Gaider's statement, there's the white mod which only lightens her skin and eyes, it doesn't change her features. If someone was really trying to mod a black person into a white person (or vice versa) there would have to be changing of the facial features and bone structure going on.(they have done this for tv shows and it requires latex prosthetics and wigs, not just lightening or darkening the skin) Do you really look at this and go "yep, she looks like a black girl with contacts and lighter skin"
That's the best they could do? Really? The only thing that makes her anything other than white in the actual version is her skin shade. Even her eyes are light brown. She really doesn't look distinct at all and like I have to keep repeating, even if she looked like this
She would have been the ONLY black person in the entirety of Thedas and it was never explained. Why can there be black people in "medieval Europe" but not Asians? Why are Asians the only ones who need some kind of reason to be there? Humans came to Thedas from somewhere else, I would assume that the people who traveled there from wherever they came from could be a mixed group and not just white and those people had children and ta da, different races in Thedas!
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