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[Hanako Ikezawa]

I always saw Isabela as black ever since Origins. 

[Devtek]

Because when it was written it roughly conformed to Europe. Fereldan (Britain or more England) Orlais (France) Rivain (Spain).Then they started to tinker with it for reasons.

 

Also because in official lore all humans in Thedas are descended from a single tribe of humans originating in what is now Tenvinter, every other human in Thedas "today" is an offshoot of them.

[tmp7704]

No, there was no 3rd party scientific study conducted on a focus group of people on whether or not Isabella looked black. Shocking I know. What answer were you expecting?

I was actually hoping against odds that maybe there was indeed some sort of statistics regarding that, similar to number of other stats BioWare had collected and/or released for their games. It was better alternative than the prospect of having the person you're discussing it with just making stuff up as it suits them, wouldn't you agree?

I've never heard her referred to as black by anyone before David Gaider's statement, there's the white mod which only lightens her skin and eyes, it doesn't change her features.

So, consider this: if Isabela wasn't perceived as black by anyone until David Gaider spoke up, why were there mods turning her "white" before the speaking up happened, and some heated up discussions around these mods how what they were doing was whitewashing and racist?

If someone was really trying to mod a black person into a white person (or vice versa) there would have to be changing of the facial features and bone structure going on.

As I mentioned already altering facial features was out of reach of DA2 modders, at least at the early stage when these "white" mods would make the appearance. Changing the skin tone, hairstyle/colour and/or makeup was literally all that could've been done. I'm not sure if they even can do more now beyond some crude copy&paste from other morphs (I never had much interest in DA2 mods)

[efd731]

None of you can see me, but I'm doing the Mr.Burns "excellent" thing on this end of the internet.
Also, interesting to see how this thread started an where it is now. Also interesting to see that mockingbirds has no notion of subjectivity(or the ability to consider other view points)

[Mockingword]

None of you can see me, but I'm doing the Mr.Burns "excellent" thing on this end of the internet.
Also, interesting to see how this thread started an where it is now. Also interesting to see that mockingbirds has no notion of subjectivity(or the ability to consider other view points)

If another viewpoint has validity, I'll just agree with it. 

[efd731]

If another viewpoint has validity, I'll just agree with it.

.....the joke is that you agree with nobody....even the people on the same side of the arguement. (Honestly not sure if over head, or just ignoring)

[Mockingword]

.....the joke is that you agree with nobody....even the people on the same side of the arguement. (Honestly not sure if over head, or just ignoring)

But... jokes are funny. 

 

And I agree with plenty of people, just not on everything all the time.

[Nefla]

I was actually hoping against odds that maybe there was indeed some sort of statistics regarding that, similar to number of other stats BioWare had collected and/or released for their games. It was better alternative than the prospect of having the person you're discussing it with just making stuff up as it suits them, wouldn't you agree?

So, consider this: if Isabela wasn't perceived as black by anyone until David Gaider spoke up, why were there mods turning her "white" before the speaking up happened, and some heated up discussions around these mods how what they were doing was whitewashing and racist?

As I mentioned already altering facial features was out of reach of DA2 modders, at least at the early stage when these "white" mods would make the appearance. Changing the skin tone, hairstyle/colour and/or makeup was literally all that could've been done. I'm not sure if they even can do more now beyond some crude copy&paste from other morphs (I never had much interest in DA2 mods)

 

[In Exile]

True.

But in the process of the developers creating their game world, they set up a setting, one in which we are fairly confident of the geographic location as well as the overall generic appearance of every major nation across the continent. Aside from a few groups we've not seen or met extensively (such as the people from Anders, the Fex and Kal-Sharok) or small pockets that could be hidden and not part of the larger known pieces of Thedas' population, we know how the setting and lore has established they look.

To change how these people look would be to change the lore, which is a path writers don't want to walk down, nor readers like to tread. Can a group of people be introduced within the setting that we have not seen or met previously that look Asian? Sure. But to suddenly make NPCs take on physical characteristics vastly different than the rest of the established population for no other reason than to change the fictional world to be more PC to the real world is not something that should be done lightly.

 

They wouldn't "change" how these people look. They would have people look different. There's no rhyme or reason to why Fereldens have light skin. They're in a geopgraphic area where, IRL, people have much darker skin colour (remember, Ferelden is not a northern country like England - it's a southern country like Argentina). 

 

The idea that skin colour is some metaphysical constant of the world that is so ingrained in the lore it would be like deciding that the whole setting actually is sci-fi is absurd. 

 

Arguing otherwise just sounds exactly like those who argued that Heimdall being black in Thor was some abomination, and those people had a few Ks in their name. Or the people that now are upset that the human torch is being played by Michael B Jordan. 

 

If the game is based on a default standard that is based on an undercurrent of racism, the developers should change it. 

[In Exile]

And nobody is objecting to having asain human equivilants in thedas. Nobody. What's happening here is that some people want actual effort put into the game so that these guys have a unique identity, just like rivian has its own unique identity, just like antiva has its own, just like how ferelden, orlais, nevarra, anderfels, par vollen, tevinter, and even the chasind have their own unqiue identities about them along with at least one unique feature to them that sets them apart from one another. And because people want actual work put into the inclusion of a new nationality being added in, which means more time, the impatient knee jerkers are coming out decrying everyone who doesn't want it done right now in a rushed and completely apathetic way of being racists and not wanting it at all.

What's happening here is that people are asking for non-white NPCs to justify how they could be non-white, because the default of Thedas has to be white, as opposed to just being a mix. Whatever precursor humans came from could have just very well have been multicultural, and basically all identifiable IRL groups could have landed in the same spot, built the same empire, and then spread all over the place in basically equal numbers. 

 

The fact that white is some default from which there has to be a justification is the problem. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

What's happening here is that people are asking for non-white NPCs to justify how they could be non-white, because the default of Thedas has to be white, as opposed to just being a mix. Whatever precursor humans came from could have just very well have been multicultural, and basically all identifiable IRL groups could have landed in the same spot, built the same empire, and then spread all over the place in basically equal numbers. 

 

The fact that white is some default from which there has to be a justification is the problem. 

 

If white hadn't been a default, and everyone had instead been black, dark skinned, light dark skinned, and asian in apperance, and folks wanted "europeans" in thedas, I would raise the same objections. If people suddenly wanted a lot of "europeans" in jade empire, assuming jade empire took off the same way dragon ages did, I would raise the same standard as I do here.

 

And thats the thing. I'm raising a standard, based on objective and measurable facts, and not just appealing to emotions and buzz words to win the day. Me, and folks raising similar statements as me, have laid out a well argued case, that because dragon age didn't establish asian appearing people in the beginning, they need to establish them for them to become part of the story. Whether isabela was or wasn't black before in DAO, they established her dark pigmentation and gave explanation for it in the next game. In other words, they established it as part of the setting.

 

What people calling for asain appearing npcs without establishing them as a nationality of their own are calling for, is a retcon, and a big one. Like adding guns into the setting and expecting everyone to just be okay with that with no explanation. Changes to the setting require some form of establishment first. Whether that means stating that one of the nations has citizens who match one or more of the wide arrange of physical appearances found in "asia", or inventing a new nation to do so, that is a simple require to hold that doesn't have anything to do with the race being non-white. If people wanting nordic allegories in the game I'd be saying the same thing, where's the president for vikings or Scandinavians? If there isn't an established one, then make one, and add it then.

 

Sorry if you find having quality put in to enriching the story of thedas and not just giving a nationality the short end of the stick in treatment when another nationality gets a lot more benefits, a bit racially discriminatory.

 

[javeart]

 

 

Well, when you are the one who does the bulk of the heavy lifting when creating the framework for an entire fictional world that now exists across multiple forms of media, you do get the power that is the oh-so-familiar "Word of God" whenever you weigh in on how the world works and is designed.

 

And, on that note, I thought I would include two posts by David Gaider that either imply or explicitly state that the inclusion of real-life races that don't exist in the Thedas lore today would be possible, but would be visited with an eye towards making it lore friendly, instead of just sprinkling ethnicities across the general populace without any explanation or reasoning.

 

http://forum.bioware...ups/?p=14282853

 

 

 

 

http://forum.bioware...-so/?p=12941453

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, I'm aware it doesn't look like DG would do something like that. My point it's he could and it seems it would be enough, because apparently, it only took two characters which only have in common being darker than the average fereldan and a post from DG stating that there's black people in Rivain to make the presence of black people legitimate to everyone.

 

Seriously, if there's anything else aside from Isabella and Duncan appearance and a few posts from DG, I haven't found it, and I'd like to see it (that or any other reference related to the subject of Thedas ethnicity), because I'm starting to think that the presence of an east-asian looking character would contradict nothing but some widespread assumptions, like if you meet someone from X and it's white (or black), then everyone in X must be white (or black), or this is based on medieval Europe history so it's a given that most people would be white, or usually in medieval fantasy fiction most people it's white so unless stated otherwise I expect everyone to be white. 

[BloodyTalon]

Maybe they could make all the humans not look like any rl ones since well would make sense.

[TurretSyndrome]

I believe what some people are saying is that without the introduction of a certain group of people with specific culture, religion and regional traits, sprinkling people of that group all over Thedas would be non-sensical. I agree with that line of thinking. I mean, without establishing the lore for Qunari and explaining what they are and how they can to be, would it make any sense if they were just moving around for no reason? 

 

Thedas has it's diversity in ethnic groups. Rivaini are dark skinned, Fereldans and Orlesians are white, each with their own accent and cultures. The same goes for other areas in Thedas. So if groups from Asia must show up(I'm not really for or against it), I think it makes more sense to introduce them in the same way as the others were.

[javeart]

I believe what some people are saying is that without the introduction of a certain group of people with specific culture, religion and regional traits, sprinkling people of that group all over Thedas would be non-sensical. I agree with that line of thinking. I mean, without establishing the lore for Qunari and explaining what they are and how they can to be, would it make any sense if they were just moving around for no reason? 

 

Thedas has it's diversity in ethnic groups. Rivaini are dark skinned, Fereldans and Orlesians are white, each with their own accent and cultures. The same goes for other areas in Thedas. So if groups from Asia must show up(I'm not really for or against it), I think it makes more sense to introduce them in the same way as the others were.

 

I don't think qunaris (and "blue persons" and the like) makes good examples for why an explanation is needed for the introduction of non-white people, because qunaris are designed to be clearly recognizable like not humans: they're much bigger than the average humans, they're grey, they have horns and they're not even a race with a long tradition in medieval fantasy settings like elves or dwarfs, so of course we (the player, not the PC who could very well be acquainted with them) need an explanation of who are they. I don't think it's the case with Isabella or an hypothetical east-asian looking NPC.

 

That said, personally, I'm not oppossed at all to the idea of introducing new ethnicities along with new cultures (my point with the Rivain example, anyway, it's that it doesn't seem to take a big effort to do so), but it's true though that I don't think there's any need, first, because the equation nation=culture=ethnicity it's not true for lots (probably most) historical nations, and, second, because I find misleading the argument about every ethnicity so far having its own culture: so far, white humans are spread across lots of cultural groups and nations, while apparentely every dark-skinned human in Thedas share the same cultural-national origin. I personally don't think this it's a model of how nations, cultures and ethnicities relate to each other that it's worth keeping.

[AkiKishi]

If white hadn't been a default, and everyone had instead been black, dark skinned, light dark skinned, and asian in apperance, and folks wanted "europeans" in thedas, I would raise the same objections. If people suddenly wanted a lot of "europeans" in jade empire, assuming jade empire took off the same way dragon ages did, I would raise the same standard as I do here.

 

 

Quite a few people brought that up as a reason for lack of sales of Jade Empire. I'd say releasing on the OXbox when the PS2 was leading it by a massive margin (like 140 million vs 20) probably had more to do with it.On the flip side, you had people going nuts over how asians were represented in the game.. 

 

I'd like to revisit Jade Empire it occupies a different sort of niche as a game than most. It's also one of the more unique worlds. 

[9TailsFox]

I always saw Isabela as black ever since Origins. 

Skin colour is so important. 

[TurretSyndrome]

I don't think qunaris (and "blue persons" and the like) makes good examples for why an explanation is needed for the introduction of non-white people, because qunaris are designed to be clearly recognizable like not humans: they're much bigger than the average humans, they're grey, they have horns and they're not even a race with a long tradition in medieval fantasy settings like elves or dwarfs, so of course we (the player, not the PC who could very well be acquainted with them) need an explanation of who are they. I don't think it's the case with Isabella or an hypothetical east-asian looking NPC.

 

That said, personally, I'm not oppossed at all to the idea of introducing new ethnicities along with new cultures (my point with the Rivain example, anyway, it's that it doesn't seem to take a big effort to do so), but it's true though that I don't think there's any need, first, because the equation nation=culture=ethnicity it's not true for lots (probably most) historical nations, and, second, because I find misleading the argument about every ethnicity so far having its own culture: so far, white humans are spread across lots of cultural groups and nations, while apparentely every dark-skinned human in Thedas share the same cultural-national origin. I personally don't think this it's a model of how nations, cultures and ethnicities relate to each other that it's worth keeping.

 

OK Qunari was not a good example, but I gave other examples here. What I observed of Thedas so far is that the diversity of people on this continent seems to be divided by region, hence why I said that the introduction of a new culture in a different region be implemented, because that is how I believe Thedas is setup. That is why, people from Orlais for example, have mostly french accents. It would be weird to me if I all of a sudden, hear an Indian accent from a brownish looking man who says he's Orlesian as well. He needs to come from somewhere where more of his people exist. That's all I'm saying.

[javeart]

OK Qunari was not a good example, but I gave other examples here. What I observed of Thedas so far is that the diversity of people on this continent seems to be divided by region, hence why I said that the introduction of a new culture in a different region be implemented, because that is how I believe Thedas is setup. That is why, people from Orlais for example, have mostly french accents. It would be weird to me if I all of a sudden, hear an Indian accent from a brownish looking man who says he's Orlesian as well. He needs to come from somewhere where more of his people exist. That's all I'm saying.

 

Of course, I understand that. What I meant is that I'd take the "wierdness" of suddenly having all kind of ethnicities everywhere in Thedas over the current situation, juts my personal preference

[Fast Jimmy]

They wouldn't "change" how these people look. They would have people look different. There's no rhyme or reason to why Fereldens have light skin. They're in a geopgraphic area where, IRL, people have much darker skin colour (remember, Ferelden is not a northern country like England - it's a southern country like Argentina).

Yes, but given that the world gets progressively WARMER the further up you move in Thedas (with the jungles of Par Vollen and the tropical island of Rivain being some of the most-northern locations on the map), then it makes sense that the further south you move in Thedas, the COLDER it gets, not warmer. This is further supported by the fact that the lands further south than the Korcari wilds being described as a wasteland of pure ice and snow. Which would put Ferelden right about the same relative geographic latitude (and, hence, sun exposure and its subsequent effect on long term pigmentation of its attending population) as England.

The idea that skin colour is some metaphysical constant of the world that is so ingrained in the lore it would be like deciding that the whole setting actually is sci-fi is absurd.

Arguing otherwise just sounds exactly like those who argued that Heimdall being black in Thor was some abomination, and those people had a few Ks in their name. Or the people that now are upset that the human torch is being played by Michael B Jordan.

If the game is based on a default standard that is based on an undercurrent of racism, the developers should change it.

In regards to your two examples, I agree that those are racist complaints. Yes, in the comics, neither Heimdell not the Human Torch was black. But in the comics, the Asgardians are actual gods (not aliens who are so scientifically advanced that they actually scare ely understand science any longer). And the new Fantastic Four is a reboot - when series reboot, they take creative liberties in telling the story that the source material outlined.

DA:I is NOT a reboot. It is a rebuilding of the franchise and lore. It is not a reset button into all previous versions of the story previously created. It is the next installment in the series. The world is the same, we are just seeing more of it. That means the tolerance to reinvent entire portions of the setting without a coherent attempt at explaining the change risks the same feeling you get when playing games with a four year old who wants to hop from playing cops and robbers to having space lasers to ninja karate chops. Entertaining when it is a child, eye-rolling obnoxious when it is a piece of fiction people pay $60 to enjoy.

[TurretSyndrome]

Of course, I understand that. What I meant is that I'd take the "wierdness" of suddenly having all kind of ethnicities everywhere in Thedas over the current situation, juts my personal preference

 

I'd like to respect the writers the creative freedom of including or excluding certain real world elements, or in this case, ethnic groups. It's their work and they have the right to choose what goes in and what doesn't. It's not like it means that they're being disrespectful to the ones they excluded. They only do so because they're not familiar with them. Hence, my preference would be to avoid the inclusion of any ethnic group if it means it will be non-sensical and awkward. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Sure, I'm aware it doesn't look like DG would do something like that. My point it's he could and it seems it would be enough, because apparently, it only took two characters which only have in common being darker than the average fereldan and a post from DG stating that there's black people in Rivain to make the presence of black people legitimate to everyone.
 
Seriously, if there's anything else aside from Isabella and Duncan appearance and a few posts from DG, I haven't found it, and I'd like to see it (that or any other reference related to the subject of Thedas ethnicity), because I'm starting to think that the presence of an east-asian looking character would contradict nothing but some widespread assumptions, like if you meet someone from X and it's white (or black), then everyone in X must be white (or black), or this is based on medieval Europe history so it's a given that most people would be white, or usually in medieval fantasy fiction most people it's white so unless stated otherwise I expect everyone to be white.

And doing so would be within the lore, if the devs clarified it.

It wouldn't be particularly STRONG lore... but it would exist. They did something similar with the Qunari going into DA2, saying more Qunari aren't bronze giants, but grey skinned dudes with horns and no shirts. And that the bronzed giants we met were very rare (despite finding and killing dozens of them in DA:O) forms of Qunari who are often sent to foreign lands because they look like everyone else.

Not particularly strong lore and still smacks of a setting change because The Rule of Cool, but it is something Gaider or the other writers could do, yes. Just state "oh yeah, the player has only seen the mostly cities in Thedas, where white people live. But it is very common for people who look similar to RL Asians to be seen in the countryside all over Thedas, but never in cities. And since DA:I is more open world, we'll LOTS more of these Asians, who are not a different race or ethnicity, but who look physically different and yet aren't treated any different, despite this being a world where point years means the equivalent to indentured slavery and genocide."

Again, weak lore, but still operating within the framework of the lore.

[TurretSyndrome]

PPl are talking about other ppl modding Isabela to have white skin an condemning it, how is that any different from modding any other character in game to one's own personal tastes? would you complain if ppl modded her to look asain? ofc not your complaining an jumping on the "white so your racists" band wagon, what ppl do or do not do in there game is there business an none to do with any of you, if you dont agree with what there doing to there game well who cares tbh because it sure aint wrong just because you dont like it

 

I agree. Isabela being modded to be white is no more wrong than Alistair being modded to be homosexual.

[Fast Jimmy]

Skin colour is so important. 

To be fair? I?' not sure that comic even does justice to how boobaliciois they made her in DA2.