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Just out of curiosity...
What is wrong with for example Bioware introducing a Fex character, who has an Asian appearance? Why would introducing an 'Asian' culture to the lore be more objectionable than having random Orlesians or Fereldans or Antivans appear Asian?
Well, to me, it doesn't really matter. It's already been done in DA:O(the merchant from Orlais in the Denerim market). It's only when they show up carrying the same "foreign" accent and say they're "Orlesian", because they clearly don't sound Orlesian despite how they look, get it? The face structure can be due to many reasons(I've always believed that it's because they or their ancestors were born in such cold climates, that their faces and skin tones turned out that way, kinda like how people's faces and skin colour become in a lot of heat during extended periods of time).
So to me, nothing wrong with the occasional East Asian-looking face in any part of Thedas, as long as they are still part of whatever country they're from(Antiva, Orlais, Ferelden, Anderfels etc), and not some "immigrants" here to sell wares and setup noodle-shops.
Well, to me, it doesn't really matter. It's already been done in DA:O(the merchant from Orlais in the Denerim market)
The Orlesian merchant was a dark-haired white woman.
Is she? she looks like she has features of an Asian-looking woman.
Just out of curiosity...
What is wrong with for example Bioware introducing a Fex character, who has an Asian appearance? Why would introducing an 'Asian' culture to the lore be more objectionable than having random Orlesians or Fereldans or Antivans appear Asian?
See, I just see a white woman with dark hair (edit: and SLIGHTLY darker skin).Is she? she looks like she has features of an Asian-looking woman.
Wow, that's... interesting. It's weird because, I have seen women from East Asia look like that.
See, I just see a white woman with dark hair (edit: and SLIGHTLY darker skin).
Then again, I look at 99% of anime and see white people there, too. Even though I am told by others that they are clearly Japanese. Maybe some viewer bias going on there.
^ She was Orlesian, right? (She hangs out In the Denerim market district?)
I never thought she looked Asian, tbh.
Edit: Ah! Here she is: Liselle.
Wow, that's... interesting. It's weird because, I have seen women from East Asia look like that.
Is she? she looks like she has features of an Asian-looking woman.
There's also Ella in DA2, the girl from the Circle in Anders' quest Dissent. She looked South Asian to me.
There's also Ella in DA2, the girl from the Circle in Anders' quest Dissent. She looked South Asian to me.
Ehh, I don't see the resemblance, unless you're going by skin tone or the puffy face that every character has in DA2.
edit: Also, Snooki has a Romani background, so that's not far off either.
Except the cold and limited sun exposure don't guarantee milky white complexions, as evidenced by fact we have people living as far and even farther north than England, and having considerably darker skin tones:Yes, but given that the world gets progressively WARMER the further up you move in Thedas (with the jungles of Par Vollen and the tropical island of Rivain being some of the most-northern locations on the map), then it makes sense that the further south you move in Thedas, the COLDER it gets, not warmer. This is further supported by the fact that the lands further south than the Korcari wilds being described as a wasteland of pure ice and snow. Which would put Ferelden right about the same relative geographic latitude (and, hence, sun exposure and its subsequent effect on long term pigmentation of its attending population) as England.
If white hadn't been a default, and everyone had instead been black, dark skinned, light dark skinned, and asian in apperance, and folks wanted "europeans" in thedas, I would raise the same objections. If people suddenly wanted a lot of "europeans" in jade empire, assuming jade empire took off the same way dragon ages did, I would raise the same standard as I do here.
And thats the thing. I'm raising a standard, based on objective and measurable facts, and not just appealing to emotions and buzz words to win the day. Me, and folks raising similar statements as me, have laid out a well argued case, that because dragon age didn't establish asian appearing people in the beginning, they need to establish them for them to become part of the story. Whether isabela was or wasn't black before in DAO, they established her dark pigmentation and gave explanation for it in the next game. In other words, they established it as part of the setting.
What people calling for asain appearing npcs without establishing them as a nationality of their own are calling for, is a retcon, and a big one. Like adding guns into the setting and expecting everyone to just be okay with that with no explanation. Changes to the setting require some form of establishment first. Whether that means stating that one of the nations has citizens who match one or more of the wide arrange of physical appearances found in "asia", or inventing a new nation to do so, that is a simple require to hold that doesn't have anything to do with the race being non-white. If people wanting nordic allegories in the game I'd be saying the same thing, where's the president for vikings or Scandinavians? If there isn't an established one, then make one, and add it then.
Sorry if you find having quality put in to enriching the story of thedas and not just giving a nationality the short end of the stick in treatment when another nationality gets a lot more benefits, a bit racially discriminatory.
There's no "white" nationality. There's no "objective and measurable fact" that everyone in Thedas is white. It's just like Heimdall being black or the Human Torch being black. There's no divine rule demanding that these characters have some particular skin colour. There's no reason for these characters to have some particular skin colour.
There is a reason for people not to have guns - the technological development of Thedas. It may have been completely arbitrary to start that the setting is medieval, but departures from a medieval setting do require justification or it changes the setting.
Since skin-colour based racism doesn't exit in Thedas, full stop, creating a diverse cast doesn't somehow "break" the lore. Skin colour was never an issue. It was never part of the game. No one ever commented on it. There was never a main or side quest on it.
Culture is not the same as skin colour.
Except the cold and limited sun exposure don't guarantee milky white complexions, as evidenced by fact we have people living as far and even farther north than England, and having considerably darker skin tones:
Yes, but given that the world gets progressively WARMER the further up you move in Thedas (with the jungles of Par Vollen and the tropical island of Rivain being some of the most-northern locations on the map), then it makes sense that the further south you move in Thedas, the COLDER it gets, not warmer. This is further supported by the fact that the lands further south than the Korcari wilds being described as a wasteland of pure ice and snow. Which would put Ferelden right about the same relative geographic latitude (and, hence, sun exposure and its subsequent effect on long term pigmentation of its attending population) as England.
In regards to your two examples, I agree that those are racist complaints. Yes, in the comics, neither Heimdell not the Human Torch was black. But in the comics, the Asgardians are actual gods (not aliens who are so scientifically advanced that they actually scare ely understand science any longer). And the new Fantastic Four is a reboot - when series reboot, they take creative liberties in telling the story that the source material outlined.
DA:I is NOT a reboot. It is a rebuilding of the franchise and lore. It is not a reset button into all previous versions of the story previously created. It is the next installment in the series. The world is the same, we are just seeing more of it. That means the tolerance to reinvent entire portions of the setting without a coherent attempt at explaining the change risks the same feeling you get when playing games with a four year old who wants to hop from playing cops and robbers to having space lasers to ninja karate chops. Entertaining when it is a child, eye-rolling obnoxious when it is a piece of fiction people pay $60 to enjoy.
Regarding temperature, that's how it works here as well. Argentina is colder the more you move south, toward Antarctica. I specifically chose Argentina as this example becaue it pushes toward Canada on the scale. And look at the skin colour of the Inuit. Look at the shape of their eyes. They don't look like Nordic Europeans. And yet if there were somehow humans native to that place of the Earth, and if there was some divine and unalterable rule that humans in Thedas had to look like their geographic equivalents on Earth, then you should complain that Fereldan's don't look Inuit enough.
But we know that DA humans came to thedas in a Diaspora. They came to Thedas from the same continent that the qunari did. They are not native to Thedas. So having a multicultural society emigrate over is not somehow a problem.
There is no need to explain anything, other than racist. Let's go back to the Marvel examples. The IRL racists raged that the Norse Gods, whether aliens or not, are supposed to be gods to the Norse whose descriptions of them were pretty clear, one of which was that they were all white. The IRL racists raged against Michael B Jordan, because he was the biological brother of a white woman, and that this was clearly "biologically impossible". Even if he was adopted, they said, that wouldn't be good enough.
There's no "reinventing" the game here, other than for people who demand that any deviate from white has to be explained by saying that everyone is white except for this culture that corresponds to an IRL minority in some far flung corner of the world.
Political correctness again. Thedas is not Earth and it doesn't need to have Asians. I'm Asian and I don't want Asians in the game for the sake of it. Stinks of political correctness. How about wanting a better game, not an ethnic diversity in the fictional world?
There's no "white" nationality. There's no "objective and measurable fact" that everyone in Thedas is white. It's just like Heimdall being black or the Human Torch being black. There's no divine rule demanding that these characters have some particular skin colour. There's no reason for these characters to have some particular skin colour.
There is a reason for people not to have guns - the technological development of Thedas. It may have been completely arbitrary to start that the setting is medieval, but departures from a medieval setting do require justification or it changes the setting.
Since skin-colour based racism doesn't exit in Thedas, full stop, creating a diverse cast doesn't somehow "break" the lore. Skin colour was never an issue. It was never part of the game. No one ever commented on it. There was never a main or side quest on it.
Culture is not the same as skin colour.
I didn't bring up either of them, now did I? Nobody said as well that thedas was required to have lots of white people only, no one but you, to try and make it seem like that was what was being said. This issue is exactly like the gun issue, people want something that wasn't previously in the game added in future or possibly present installments.
All fine and well, in fact I'd welcome such additions and exapnsions in the game. Having a new nationality means getting a new culture, or expanding on a previously unseen culture, such as the fex or kal sharock dwarves or a clan of dalish elves or even some people to the far west of tevinter showig up. Establishing a nation of origins for these people to explain their different appearances is excellent, because it offers more oppurtunities to explore stories, and allows for deeper characters to emerge with new view points to contribute.
But then they go on to say, "Well we can just make the orlesians asian and that'll be fine", or worse, "we can make every nation have asain "looking" people in the game and that's how it should be done. That's not alright, thats more racist in fact then not having them at all. Because you reduced these people to just being quotas. "Oh, we need 4.24% more asian looking french guys at that shop corner, that'll show we have diversity interest and that asians are part of the games lore."
It's lazy. It's insulting. It doesn't give a nationality of people the respect they deserve. It doesn't improve the lore. It doesn't even raise any meaningful questions because it was obviously made for quota. And worst of all, it reduces these people to being just skin tone and eye shape. It says to asians "You don't have an identity, you have a look. And that's the only thing we care about you for."
The same can be said about people who inhabit England today, though. And as mentioned already in this thread, Asia is a huge continent, spanning wide range of latitudes. Are we presuming that the ancestors of today's Inuits were definitely coming from far south, and ruling out the alternative they're people who already lived that far north in Asia and then simply crossed the Bering strait, eventually?True, although it is a well established fact that Inuits migrated from Asia, where the latitude and sun exposure for darker pigmentation does exist.
Given that the Bioware devs disagree and it is their world, then there IS need to explain it. So let's not call them racist on their own forum website..
There is no need to explain anything, other than racist.
This is not at all true. Again, look at Jade Empire - would it have made sense for a game built on Asian cultural archetypes, with Asian characters to have other ethnicities roaming around without at least explaining that they were from other parts of the game world?There's no "reinventing" the game here, other than for people who demand that any deviate from white has to be explained by saying that everyone is white except for this culture that corresponds to an IRL minority in some far flung corner of the world.
Just out of curiosity...
What is wrong with for example Bioware introducing a Fex character, who has an Asian appearance? Why would introducing an 'Asian' culture to the lore be more objectionable than having random Orlesians or Fereldans or Antivans appear Asian?
Depends.
Do they do it because of social pressure or do they do it because it fits the setting?
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Why is there a Tear in the Veil?
Asians did it.
Asian Empire confirmed in DA:I.
Curious now, but do you believe that having things like French ripoffs condensed down to "they wear fancy masks, silly clothes and backstab each other a lot. Let's make sure to mock them because French." gives anyone "the respect they deserve", improves the lore and raises any meaningful questions?It's lazy. It's insulting. It doesn't give a nationality of people the respect they deserve. It doesn't improve the lore. It doesn't even raise any meaningful questions because it was obviously made for quota. And worst of all, it reduces these people to being just skin tone and eye shape. It says to asians "You don't have an identity, you have a look. And that's the only thing we care about you for."
The same can be said about people who inhabit England today, though. And as mentioned already in this thread, Asia is a huge continent, spanning wide range of latitudes. Are we presuming that the ancestors of today's Inuits were definitely coming from far south, and ruling out the alternative they're people who already lived that far north in Asia and then simply crossed the Bering strait, eventually?
Curious now, but do you believe that having things like French ripoffs condensed down to "they wear fancy masks, silly clothes and backstab each other a lot. Let's make sure to mock them because French." gives anyone "the respect they deserve", improves the lore and raises any meaningful questions?
Forgive me, but becoming suddenly concerned with quality only when it makes for handy excuse why something shouldn't be done at all strikes me as simply insincere.
Suddenly? Better check my posts in this thread guy, because I haven't wavered from my point about additions being made with quality to them at all this entire thread.
There are a lot of elements to orlais that do enrapture french culture and societal history. About the only thing I can think of for orlais being of mock was the running gag about cheese, which I wouldn't consider insulting. Can you name some examples of orlesians being used as a mouthpiece to mock france?
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