709 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Suddenly? Better check my posts in this thread guy, because I haven't wavered from my point about additions being made with quality to them at all this entire thread.
 
There are a lot of elements to orlais that do enrapture french culture and societal history. About the only thing I can think of for orlais being of mock was the running gag about cheese, which I wouldn't consider insulting. Can you name some examples of orlesians being used as a mouthpiece to mock france?

Uh... I don't think we want to go down this path...

[tmp7704]

Does it matter? Are we trying to have the argument that the amount of sun exposure DOESN'T play a long term role in the presence of pigment of its inhabitants over the course of thousands of generations? If so, then you're bark raving mad.

No, I think we're trying to have an argument that living at certain latitude is only one of factors influencing skin tone, which means the point how "of course they're white because look where they live" isn't as strong as it could appear at first glance.

Incidentally, when you think about it human history in Thedas is nowhere near 'thousands of generations' long. 200 generations would be a very generous estimate. They're quite like Inuits and other relatively recent migrants in this regard.

[Fast Jimmy]

No, I think we're trying to have an argument that living at certain latitude is only one of factors influencing skin tone, which means the point how "of course they're white because look where they live" isn't as strong as it could appear at first glance.Incidentally, when you think about it human history in Thedas is nowhere near 'thousands of generations' long. 200 generations would be a very generous estimate. They're quite like Inuits and other relatively recent migrants in this regard.

I'd quibble that it is likely more like 2,000-3,000 years since the first humans arrived in Thedas (since the time of Andraste was roughly 1,000 years ago from present day Thedas, which overthrew the then-well-established Tevinter empire), but it is all semantics.

The examples you are giving with the Inuits is irrelevant because there was (until the last 100 years) no other ethnicity or phenotype for them to have children with. You could not possibly have a group of people with noticeably different physical traits right next door to others who have different traits and not expect either a homogenization of the two or a disappearance of one of the phenotypes. The only time a migrating population maintains their appearance over even 20 generations is if they move to a land where no one else lives. Which is not the case for any of the populated areas of Thedas.

[tmp7704]

Suddenly? Better check my posts in this thread guy, because I haven't wavered from my point about additions being made with quality to them at all this entire thread.

I didn't mean your stance changed in this thread. Rather, do you have the record of being equally adamant the cultures we already have in the game should be reworked to be just as nuanced and depth-provoking as you want the new Asia-based additions to be? Or do you consider them sufficient in their current state, the state which is imo far from these high standards you want to see?
 

Can you name some examples of orlesians being used as a mouthpiece to mock france?

I'll turn this question into something that'll be easier to answer -- can you name some examples of Orlesian characters that aren't just crude caricatures with thick accents? There's Leliana who benefits from extra exposure as player's companion, but other than that?



this is in a nutshell the "level of respect" DA currently gives to cultures it chose to feature.

[tmp7704]

I'd quibble that it is likely more like 2,000-3,000 years since the first humans arrived in Thedas (since the time of Andraste was roughly 1,000 years ago from present day Thedas, which overthrew the then-well-established Tevinter empire), but it is all semantics.

Yeah, I went with the extra margin for the total of ~5000 years for Thedas humans, given they supposedly came from Par Vollen 'many thousand years ago', for which there's no exact records.

The Inuits example is interesting to me in the sense, if you want to argue that today Inuits are dark skinned because they're recent migrants coming from areas farther south where the sun exposure had impact on their current appearance... then actually humans in Thedas mirror that -- they are said to be recent migrants from (sub)tropical areas of their world, and similarly didn't yet live in their new place for long enough yet to adapt to these new conditions. As such, the majority of them being white skinned is very arbitrary and not really grounded in "but but the limited sun exposure" -- they could just as easily be Asian and/or largely (and more sensibly) dark skinned, and it'd actually make more sense.

[In Exile]

Given that the Bioware devs disagree and it is their world, then there IS need to explain it. So let's not call them racist on their own forum website.

 

Bioware said a lot of things about their world, like how it wouldn't make sense to make MShep gay, until it made perfect sense to make MShep gay. Beyond that, it's possible to say that a particular view is problematically racist without saying that the person who holds it is racist. These are two totally different things, and it takes a lot to be a racist versus to just not realize that a certain view has unfortunate implications. 

 

I don't think DG is racist. I think he's thoughtful, sincere, and does an incredible amount in a pretty shoddy industry to advance an enlighted view of equality. But that doesn't mean that everything he says is above board. Bioware can do wrong. 

 

This is not at all true. Again, look at Jade Empire - would it have made sense for a game built on Asian cultural archetypes, with Asian characters to have other ethnicities roaming around without at least explaining that they were from other parts of the game world?

This is strictly an issue BECAUSE Bioware chose a pre-dominantly white culture during their world building, for good, bad or indifferent. If it was African, or South American, or Indian/South Asian and people were demanding more white people be in those games because white gamers might feel better about themselves, would you be calling the gamers calling for more whites racist then as well?

 

In regards to Jade Empire, I think it would make perfect sense to have a super cosmopolitan society based on a very particular culture IRL without any need for further explanation. You're acting as if, for example, the Chinese are some form of homogeneous "Asian" group, which isn't true. IRL racial groups are based on pretty BS distictions. We don't need to justify them in our fiction. 

 

And here is the funny thing with "white" culture. What that means is totally up in the air. Let's say you set a game in 19th century Russia. Depending on which IRL racist you're talking to, you haven't borrowed a "predominantly white" culture, because Russians (and slavs more generally) aren't white. In my old country, there's no such thing as a "latino" identity - they're just considered white. This would be a ridiculous notion to Americans. Racial groups are pure culture specific BS. 

 

Representation has nothing to do with "gamers feeling about themselves" and the fact that you think this is what it reduces to is just sad.

 

Edit: Well, it's not totally true that my former country wouldn't recognize a "latino" identity. We do have a distinction between nordic whites, slavic whites and "latin" whites, but to us "latin" whites include the French, Spanish and Italians - basically all the romance language countries.  

[Fast Jimmy]

Bioware said a lot of things about their world, like how it wouldn't make sense to make MShep gay, until it made perfect sense to make MShep gay. Beyond that, it's possible to say that a particular view is problematically racist without saying that the person who holds it is racist. These are two totally different things, and it takes a lot to be a racist versus to just not realize that a certain view has unfortunate implications.

I don't think DG is racist. I think he's thoughtful, sincere, and does an incredible amount in a pretty shoddy industry to advance an enlighted view of equality. But that doesn't mean that everything he says is above board. Bioware can do wrong.



In regards to Jade Empire, I think it would make perfect sense to have a super cosmopolitan society based on a very particular culture IRL without any need for further explanation. You're acting as if, for example, the Chinese are some form of homogeneous "Asian" group, which isn't true. IRL racial groups are based on pretty BS distictions. We don't need to justify them in our fiction.

And here is the funny thing with "white" culture. What that means is totally up in the air. Let's say you set a game in 19th century Russia. Depending on which IRL racist you're talking to, you haven't borrowed a "predominantly white" culture, because Russians (and slavs more generally) aren't white. In my old country, there's no such thing as a "latino" identity - they're just considered white. This would be a ridiculous notion to Americans. Racial groups are pure culture specific BS.

Representation has nothing to do with "gamers feeling about themselves" and the fact that you think this is what it reduces to is just sad.

Edit: Well, it's not totally true that my former country wouldn't recognize a "latino" identity. We do have a distinction between nordic whites, slavic whites and "latin" whites, but to us "latin" whites include the French, Spanish and Italians - basically all the romance language countries.

Representation is EXACTLY that. It is allowing everyone to have a seat at the table in order to feel involved. Whether that is governmental representation, racial representation or ideological representation... that is the sole purpose. To make people feel like that others "like them" are involved and taken into account.

It's not a bad thing. But neither is having rocket ships, tap dancing demons or a magic lasso that makes everyone tell the truth. But that doesn't mean you can put these concepts into every game across the board without any regard to whether or not they make sense.

I'd challenge anyone out there to tell me what is wrong with Asians being explained if they were to appear in Thedas. What is the harm? What is the great, unpalatable damage in saying "here's a people we haven't seen before, who we may have even heard of (Fex, Kal-Sharok, etc.)" as a means of connecting the narrative coherency for the viewer?

We've long ago passed the point of having any sort of real discussion on if there are Asians in Thedas amongst the general population - there isn't. Gaider confirms it, which is pretty much the only evidence I or anyone else would or should need.

So if that is the case and the options are "include Asians and just act like they were always there and that the 1000+ NPCs and human enemies we encountered were all just flukes" or saying "include Asians and give a reason for why the player has not encountered any previously."

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine one reason why people would be against keeping such an appearance friendly to the lore.

[tmp7704]

I'd challenge anyone out there to tell me what is wrong with Asians being explained if they were to appear in Thedas. What is the harm? What is the great, unpalatable damage in saying "here's a people we haven't seen before, who we may have even heard of (Fex, Kal-Sharok, etc.)" as a means of connecting the narrative coherency for the viewer?

I don't think there'd be any objections if there was extra lore accompanying their appearance. Rather, some people say that the lore addition isn't absolutely required, and if such characters were simply introduced without much of additional explanation then it'd be acceptable way of handling it, too.

[Hugebull]

Why?

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think there'd be any objections if there was extra lore accompanying their appearance. Rather, some people say that the lore addition isn't absolutely required, and if such characters were simply introduced without much explanation then it'd be acceptable way of handling it, too.

But why? Why damage the lore, setting and narrative if explaining isn't bad? Why do harm when it costs nothing to keep things intact?

[Exaltation]

Asian twinks please,very hot.

[Falcon084]

WTH have people got against French accents anyway?

[tmp7704]

But why? Why damage the lore, setting and narrative if explaining isn't bad? Why do harm when it costs nothing to keep thing intact?

Well, look at the other part of this thread -- there's people who argue that adding Asian-like characters to the mix should be accompanied with good quality lore and as such it might take loooooong time because supposedly that's how much effort it involves to come up with such good lore (so why won't all these impatient knee-jerkers just shut up and wait, already)

So you then have some people say that they'd rather have these characters added now than latter, and they don't necessarily want that amazingly good lore to accompany them, if that's supposed to mean having to wait x more years. And from this point they argue that not having that amazingly good extra lore wouldn't actually hurt the existing settings all that much, if at all, as far as they're concerned.

[javeart]

I didn't bring up either of them, now did I? Nobody said as well that thedas was required to have lots of white people only, no one but you, to try and make it seem like that was what was being said. This issue is exactly like the gun issue, people want something that wasn't previously in the game added in future or possibly present installments.

 

All fine and well, in fact I'd welcome such additions and exapnsions in the game. Having a new nationality means getting a new culture, or expanding on a previously unseen culture, such as the fex or kal sharock dwarves or a clan of dalish elves or even some people to the far west of tevinter showig up. Establishing a nation of origins for these people to explain their different appearances is excellent, because it offers more oppurtunities to explore stories, and allows for deeper characters to emerge with new view points to contribute.

 

But then they go on to say, "Well we can just make the orlesians asian and that'll be fine", or worse, "we can make every nation have asain "looking" people in the game and that's how it should be done. That's not alright, thats more racist in fact then not having them at all. Because you reduced these people to just being quotas. "Oh, we need 4.24% more asian looking french guys at that shop corner, that'll show we have diversity interest and that asians are part of the games lore."

 

It's lazy. It's insulting. It doesn't give a nationality of people the respect they deserve. It doesn't improve the lore. It doesn't even raise any meaningful questions because it was obviously made for quota. And worst of all, it reduces these people to being just skin tone and eye shape. It says to asians "You don't have an identity, you have a look. And that's the only thing we care about you for."

 

I've realized that there might be something about my positionthat might not be clear (can't speak for anyone else arguing in favor of including other ethnicities regarless of including new nationalities, obviously): I'm not saying let's throw some east-asian looking people there among what until now has been exclusively white people groups or nationalities but let's keep everything else just the same. What I'd like it's to ignore the whole national/cultural/ethnic distribution that currently exist in Thedas and start it all over, so to speak. Basically I'd put white, arabics, black, indian, latinos, east-asian, etc everywhere even in Rivain. Huge retcon, and wierd and whatever, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

 

As I said before, that doesn't mean though, that I'm against other ways of doing it. But I don't think they're necessarily a better way of doing it.

 

Also, quotas are sometimes necessary. Maybe not in this case, but definitely in lots of other cases, there's nothing inherently wrong with them

[Han Shot First]

Depends.

 

Do they do it because of social pressure or do they do it because it fits the setting?

 

An Asian culture would fit the setting.

 

Dragon Age is very loosely inspired by medieval Europe. During the medieval period the Mongols were beginning to expand into Eastern Europe, and warred with some of the same Muslim factions that the Crusaders had been fighting off and on. The Popes sent diplomatic envoys to the Mongols, and there were also some attempts at forging an alliance between the Mongols and the Crusader states.

 

If having some basis in medieval history is held up as the crtieria for inclusion, a Mongol analogue would not be out of place.

[javeart]

Curious now, but do you believe that having things like French ripoffs condensed down to "they wear fancy masks, silly clothes and backstab each other a lot. Let's make sure to mock them because French." gives anyone "the respect they deserve", improves the lore and raises any meaningful questions?

Forgive me, but becoming suddenly concerned with quality only when it makes for handy excuse why something shouldn't be done at all strikes me as simply insincere.

 

I agree so much... I don't know how is Orlais rsuppossed to represent appropriately France, or how could the Rivain-Antiva mix represent appropriately mediterranean countries... (Btw, I'm shocked about how many people seem to think that Rivain=Spain, because other that the Qunari point of entrance to Thedas thing, an for what little we know about the country it doesn't make much sense. Though so far, everything about Rivain looks really cool, and so are Isabella and Duncan, so, ok, I'm fine with it   )

[Cainhurst Crow]

I've realized that there might be something about my positionthat might not be clear (can't speak for anyone else arguing in favor of including other ethnicities regarless of including new nationalities, obviously): I'm not saying let's throw some east-asian looking people there among what until now has been exclusively white people groups or nationalities but let's keep everything else just the same. What I'd like it's to ignore the whole national/cultural/ethnic distribution that currently exist in Thedas and start it all over, so to speak. Basically I'd put white, arabics, black, indian, latinos, east-asian, etc everywhere even in Rivain. Huge retcon, and wierd and whatever, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

 

As I said before, that doesn't mean though, that I'm against other ways of doing it. But I don't think they're necessarily a better way of doing it.

 

Also, quotas are sometimes necessary. Maybe not in this case, but definitely in lots of other cases, there's nothing inherently wrong with them

 

Well when you start your petition for the dragon age remake and get enough signitures to make that happen, let me know. I'll be curious to see how this experiment of making a socially modern, every else medieval/renisance setting works out in game.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I didn't mean your stance changed in this thread. Rather, do you have the record of being equally adamant the cultures we already have in the game should be reworked to be just as nuanced and depth-provoking as you want the new Asia-based additions to be? Or do you consider them sufficient in their current state, the state which is imo far from these high standards you want to see?
 

 

We haven't seen orlais so I wouldn't know what they are like in game. We will be seeing orlais when dragon age inquisiton comes out, and we got glimpses of a few sections of orlesian life from leiliana's story as well as the masked empire, but as of now we haven't actually gotten much definitive and hands on depth for how orlais is. I felt ferelden was good, and that kirkwall was good as well, though I would like to see the free marches expanded on significantly. If they were to introduce an asian ethnicity, and hopefully an asian inspired and loosely based culture to go with it to make them actually interesting, then I would like to see them get the same level of treatment, which I actually feel is well done and well expanded.

 

Dragon age doesn't have to be analogous to our world to a tee, this is true. Orlais didn't have to be a 100 percent accurate representation of france, or even 50%. But they at least have their own history, identity, and feel to them that makes them distinguishable from other nations in thedas. Which I feel is the ultimate goal here, to make a complete feeling analouge to asain countries that serves to incorporate them well into the lore and setting.

 

Heck, Qunari are heavily inspired by plato's vision of a republic. But I don't expect them to be a 100% analouge to that political theory of orginization. That doesn't stop them from being interesting in the setting from their distinct apperance, such as choice of clothing, physical features, weapon and armor aesthetics, etc, as well as for their social views and customs.

 

Same, I wouild imagine, applies to "asains" as well.

[javeart]

Well when you start your petition for the dragon age remake and get enough signitures to make that happen, let me know. I'll be curious to see how this experiment of making a socially modern, every else medieval/renisance setting works out in game.

I'm aware it's not going to happen, don't worry. I'm surprised that you call it "experiment" though, as if DA universe wasn't already very not medieval when it comes to toher subjects like sexuality or gender. And it works just fine. Would it change mage-templar conflict? Orlais-Ferelden tensions? Racism against elves? Would it change any major topic of the DA Universe? at all?

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm aware it's not going to happen, don't worry. I'm surprised that you call it "experiment" though, as if DA universe wasn't already very not medieval when it comes to toher subjects like sexuality or genre. And it works just fine. Would it change mage-templar conflict? Orlais-Ferelden tensions? Racism against elves? Would it change any major topic of the DA Universe? at all?

 

I would say removing the more nationalistic elements of dragon age would have a profound effect on a lot of the setting and lore.

[javeart]

I would say removing the more nationalistic elements of dragon age would have a profound effect on a lot of the setting and lore.

 

But I said nothing about removing nationalistic elements. Nations, their culture, their history,their alliances and animosities... all of that would still be there, that wouldn't change at all.

 

edit: I was thinking why would you think I'd want to remove nationalistic elements and I guess it's because of this sentence " what I'd like it's to ignore the whole national/cultural/ethnic distribution that currently exist in Thedas and start it all over". I think worded it poorly, but I'm not sure I can word it better   I meant I'd ignore the current ties between nations, cultures and ethnicities, like in Orlais=white, Ferelden=white, Rivain=dark skinned. Not ignoring Orlais, Ferelden or Rivain as nations

[rocsage]

I didn't mean your stance changed in this thread. Rather, do you have the record of being equally adamant the cultures we already have in the game should be reworked to be just as nuanced and depth-provoking as you want the new Asia-based additions to be? Or do you consider them sufficient in their current state, the state which is imo far from these high standards you want to see?
 
I'll turn this question into something that'll be easier to answer -- can you name some examples of Orlesian characters that aren't just crude caricatures with thick accents? There's Leliana who benefits from extra exposure as player's companion, but other than that?



this is in a nutshell the "level of respect" DA currently gives to cultures it chose to feature.

Duke Prosper would be a very rare exception.

[In Exile]

Representation is EXACTLY that. It is allowing everyone to have a seat at the table in order to feel involved. Whether that is governmental representation, racial representation or ideological representation... that is the sole purpose. To make people feel like that others "like them" are involved and taken into account.

It's not a bad thing. But neither is having rocket ships, tap dancing demons or a magic lasso that makes everyone tell the truth. But that doesn't mean you can put these concepts into every game across the board without any regard to whether or not they make sense.

I'd challenge anyone out there to tell me what is wrong with Asians being explained if they were to appear in Thedas. What is the harm? What is the great, unpalatable damage in saying "here's a people we haven't seen before, who we may have even heard of (Fex, Kal-Sharok, etc.)" as a means of connecting the narrative coherency for the viewer?

We've long ago passed the point of having any sort of real discussion on if there are Asians in Thedas amongst the general population - there isn't. Gaider confirms it, which is pretty much the only evidence I or anyone else would or should need.

So if that is the case and the options are "include Asians and just act like they were always there and that the 1000+ NPCs and human enemies we encountered were all just flukes" or saying "include Asians and give a reason for why the player has not encountered any previously."

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine one reason why people would be against keeping such an appearance friendly to the lore.

 

You're wrong about representation. It's not about feelings. You're confusing one consequence with the intended effect of the policy. 

 

As for DG's comments, he insisted there were no atheists in Thedas until he changed his mind and said that there were atheists in Thedas. The idea that there is some divine rule emanating from him that decides the setting forever and all time is ridiculous, particularly when the skin colour and physical appearance of characters is irrelevant to the lore. 

It would be one thing if DA was all about racism against a particular skin colour. Then we could argue that suddenly introducing that colour is a problem for the lore, because of all the racism. Like if Celene were suddenly an elf or a dwarf - that would be a big lore problem. But racism based on skin colour isn't part of the setting. So this reification of his comment is absurd, and not a substitute for either sensible or rational argument. 

 

There's no "harm" in inventing an asian culture in Thedas. But there isn't any need, either. That DG wants to say that cultures in Thedas are racialized along IRL lines is his prerogative. But there's no divine fiat that requires this to be the case to create the setting, nor does some absolute principle of reason or lore require it to be the case for the developers to include so-called asians. 

 

And now that we're back to lore, again, there's no "lore" specific reason for why characters look how they do. That's the whole point. There's no "lore friendly" reason. Since there's no particular lore reason for it to be this way, there's no need for any lore particular reason for it to be the other way.

 

This conversation basically boils down to this: The developers decided the majority cast is almost all white, for absolutely no reason at all related to world building. The whiteness of the majority of the cast is irrelevant to all aspects of the plot and lore, and it is completely arbitrary they are white and not something else. Despite the irrelevance and arbitrariness of this choice, it would be a violation of sense if the cast were ever something other than white without a detailed explanation as to why that is the case. This argument is garbage. 

[In Exile]

Thing is, this is a medieval time period, you won't have as much ethnic diversity because it would be harder for people to travel around.

 

That's wrong, actually. There was a lot of diversity in a number of cosmopolitan cities in that period. Europe was boil on the ass of human civilization for a long time so people didn't go there all that often, but developed socities were quite cosmopolitan in the middle east and asia.