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[javeart]

 

Not quite; there's no real parallel here in my opinion. The Qunari are recent arrivals and a fairly marginal (geographically speaking) presence, and play a similar role to the Spanish conquistadors - if they had been kicked off the American mainland by the Aztecs and Mayas. Elves and Dwarves are natives, with the Elves playing the rol of American ghetto blacks as well as native Americans. The non-European lands and peoples, whether in the form of nonhumans or not, are actually barely there in the DA world. De facto there IS no wider world.
 

 

 I don't know, you might be right. The thing it's I always thought of the Tevinter vs Qunari conflict as based on the conflict between the Ottoman Empire and the Bizantine Empire. Also DG compairing Rivain with Spain as the point of entrance for Qunaris reinforced for me the idea that they were filling the role of muslims in medieval Europe history. Granted that the muslims didn't got as far south (north) as Qunaris did, but still. 

 

It's true that there some resemblance between elves and american natives on the other hand, but the racism against them and the alienages always made think of jews and jews quarters. 

 

I want to make clear, anyway, that the paralelisms I see are in the relationships they have with the human societies: the close neighbours with a history of territorial wars; the discriminated collective living among them; and, while I don't have a paralelism for dwarves, they fit nicely in a third role, somewhat in between: living closer but not among them (not most of them, at least), and not subjugated to human autorithy but neither in open conflict with them. 

 

 

 

The Witcherverse actually has a fairly modern feel to it, just like DA, but it mixes it up with a lot of historically based precedents, as well a fair amount of pragmatism and somewhat (not always) succesful attempts at psychological realism on the part of its characters. If there's a parallel, think 20th century mainland Europe, particularly its central and eastern parts, and throw in the 16th and 17th century witch hunts, anti-Jewish pogroms and the Thirty Years' War for good measure. Fun times in a fun place.
I think some people, particularly Europeans (not all) feel The Witcher to be more 'authentic' because they recognise the architecture, the clothing, the armour, the way events unfold from their own history, even if there are no 1:1 parallels. And it's something that is either largely absent or implemented in a somewhat clunky way by DA, even though it tries to imitate some of the same aspects of European history.

 

The core values by the creators seem to be about the same, though. The difference seems to be that DA puts these values into many of the characters and the setting, while the Witcher demonstrates the importance of these values by showing what happens if tolerance, self-rule, respect for minorities, restrictions on power etc. are (relatively) absent. It's not entirely as clear-cut as I am putting it here, but the net result is that Thedas feels a lot 'friendlier' than the Northern Kingdoms, even though on paper it's not that great of a place (in fact, in many ways it's worse because many of the countries on Thedas tend to behavioural extremes compared to Witcherverse countries).

 

 

The truth it's my problem with The Witcher is more about gender and more with the game itself than with the universe created in the books (though I got some issues with the books too, but that would be just too OT  ). I just wanted to point that there were real world values in The Witcher (I couldn't help to add that not always of the kind I feel simpathy for)

[Eleinehmm]

Confession time: I remember reading the first Witcher book a looooong time before the game came out and thought it to be a rather average fantasy parody.  I was rather surprised that anyone would make a game out of it, to be honest.

Perceived Authenticity is connected to  modern ideas about the way things were, not to the way things were, really.
 

[Han Shot First]

Not what I gathered, myself, Han, and a feww others proposed

 

"There is no reason to not have asian looking people, just use their inclusion as a chance to expand lore, don't just throw them for diversity's sake"

 

This.

 

If things were getting a bit heated, from my part it was frustration over that position being repeatedly misconstrued as an argument against a diverse cast. I'm actually in agreement with those who say they would like to see an Asian character in the next game. I just disagree with some of them on how that should be implemented. 

[Ryzaki]

Things are getting a bit heated here.  It's late and I just finished up dealing with a bunch of ****.  If I'm understanding things here, these are the perspectives?

 

 

1) There shouldn't be asian looking people because it doesn't make sense for that appearance to exist because of genetics?

2) There should be asian looking people because it's a fantasy game and I value that type of inclusion over adherence to realism?
 

 

Is that about right?

 

Yeah I'm 2. Because honestly does anyone really lose anything by some Fereldans/Orlesians/Whatever being asian looking? I highly doubt anyone is really going to be negatively affected by that and meanwhile someone who is similar looking can go "hey that's actually type nice." or maybe not even care but at least it's there.

[tmp7704]

If Orlais was settled by three different tribes, one who looked European, one who looked African, and one who looked Asian, and these seperate groups merged into a single tribal or national entity...over the millenia you would not have these physical differences. Those populations would have merged and mixed just as those Britons and Saxons and Normans did, and the 'modern' Orlesians would have physical characteristics of all three of those groups.

It doesn't exactly work like this in all cases -- your England example has limited application, because it involves groups which were already very similar to begin with. But some genes/features are more of an on/off thing and you either have epicanthic fold e.g.(or blue/green/grey eyes), or you don't. These features aren't something that'd over the millennia 'average out' with everyone winding up looking the same.

Then there's also cultural practices and 'simple' stuff like prejudice etc. that can limit the extent of different ethnicities actually cross-breeding on wide scale, as opposed to just co-existing next to one another. Consider that while our world has many multi-ethnic countries, they actually are multi-ethnic countries, rather than nations inhabited by groups mixed to the point where you can no longer attribute different ethnicities to their members.

that said, going by some comments from few pages back, it sounds that something like a reveal that Anderfels is actually a country inhabited by Asian-looking people... could be a compromise that could satisfy both these wanting Asian-like characters present in Thedas, and these who want these Asian-like characters to have their own lore/practices etc?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Things are getting a bit heated here.  It's late and I just finished up dealing with a bunch of ****.  If I'm understanding things here, these are the perspectives?
 
 
1) There shouldn't be asian looking people because it doesn't make sense for that appearance to exist because of genetics?
2) There should be asian looking people because it's a fantasy game and I value that type of inclusion over adherence to realism?
 
 
Is that about right?

Not to b obtuse about things but nobody, not myself nor others, were against Asia characters being in dragon age.

This is an argument over how it should be done, whether through making a new nation the characters hail from, or have them come from already existing and well known nation.

[Han Shot First]

It doesn't exactly work like this in all cases -- your England example has limited application, because it involves groups which were already very similar to begin with. But some genes/features are more of an on/off thing and you either have epicanthic fold e.g.(or blue/green/grey eyes), or you don't. These features aren't something that'd over the millennia 'average out' with everyone winding up looking the same.

 

 

I used the United Kingdom as an example, but could have just as easily used some of the islands in the Carribbean. Originally inhabited by Native-Americans and settled by Spaniards who later imported African slaves, the population of many of those islands today are multiracial, with the average person having some physical characteristics of two or more of those three groups.

 

Then there's also cultural practices and 'simple' stuff like prejudice etc. that can limit the extent of different ethnicities actually cross-breeding on wide scale, as opposed to just co-existing next to one another. Consider that while our world has many multi-ethnic countries, they actually are multi-ethnic countries, rather than nations inhabited by groups mixed to the point where you can no longer attribute different ethnicities to their members.

 

Even in areas where there is a great amount of racial prejudice and discrimination, it is not uncommon for two groups to mix. A good example of this are people of European Jewish descent. Europe's Jews endured centuries of discrimination and often brutal oppression. Pogroms were not uncommon in some countries. Yet people with European Jewish ancestry also owe quite a bit of their ancestry to the gentile population of Europe. Likewise partial Jewish ancestry amongst some European Christians is not uncommon.

 

Native Americans are another example. Most Native Americans in the United States today have partial European or African ancestry.

[tmp7704]

The Witcherverse actually has a fairly modern feel to it, just like DA, but it mixes it up with a lot of historically based precedents, as well a fair amount of pragmatism and somewhat (not always) succesful attempts at psychological realism on the part of its characters.

Quite. The Witcher books at least can be probably summarized as 'Grimm's fairy tales for adults'* in the sense they riff on old medieval stereotypes and myths by adding modern (well, 20th century-modern but still) sentiments and concepts, along with some carnal spins and copious swearing for humour and/or 'grimdark' value. As such they aren't really any more traditional fantasy than DA is, they just apply differently weighted new components to the old mix.

*) leaving aside the original Grimm fables were creepy as hell and far from the sanitized versions kids get to hear nowadays.

[tmp7704]

Even in areas where there is a great amount of racial prejudice and discrimination, it is not uncommon for two groups to mix. A good example of this are people of European Jewish descent. Europe's Jews endured centuries of discrimination and often brutal oppression. Pogroms were not uncommon in some countries. Yet people with European Jewish ancestry also owe quite a bit of their ancestry to the gentile population of Europe. Likewise partial Jewish ancestry amongst some European Christians is not uncommon.

Funnily enough, I was thinking of using this example to illustrate the opposite -- as the Jewish communities over these centuries kept mostly to themselves. You have that reflected in the Fiddler on the Roof where one of the protagonist's daughters wanting to marry a non-Jew is earth-shattering event for her father and a Big Deal. Similar knit-together communities were also pretty normal outside of Europe, and then of course we have the modern Israel which puts heavy focus on the ethnicity. What I'm getting at is, while some mixing did happen it's definitely not common, and the Jewish populations didn't just dissolve into "nothing but people with partial Jewish ancestry" as result of living in countries populated with other ethnicities.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Wouldn't that be because of how they were negatively treated by Europeans though that allowed them to keep such a tight knit community going? I don't think a lot of people even going into modern pre-world war Europe considered the Jewish people as being part of their country even with them living within said countries boarders, and the Same thing probably applying to the jewish people as well who might have seen their identity as jewish people before seeing themselves as part of a actual country.

[tmp7704]

Wouldn't that be because of how they were negatively treated by Europeans though that allowed them to keep such a tight knit community going?

To be honest, no idea -- there's after all examples of similar communities being formed by migrants of different ethnicities coming to America, but one could argue that these were similarly treated with disdain by the earlier colonists. If I had to guess, I'd say it's long-term results of negative views of people of different ethnicities held by all parties involved. "Different = bad" seems pretty rooted in how we tend to approach things.

So yeah, pretty much like you say. But then this can be easily used to justify why Thedas migration wave that involved people of multiple ethnicities wouldn't wind up with everyone mixed and looking the same.

[Han Shot First]

Funnily enough, I was thinking of using this example to illustrate the opposite -- as the Jewish communities over these centuries kept mostly to themselves. You have that reflected in the Fiddler on the Roof where one of the protagonist's daughters wanting to marry a non-Jew is earth-shattering event for her father and a Big Deal. Similar knit-together communities were also pretty normal outside of Europe, and then of course we have the modern Israel which puts heavy focus on the ethnicity. What I'm getting at is, while some mixing did happen it's definitely not common, and the Jewish populations didn't just dissolve into "nothing but people with partial Jewish ancestry" as result of living in countries populated with other ethnicities.

 

The bolded bit is actually incorrect and modern studies on DNA bear this out. Jews have been living in Europe since the Roman Empire, and have had millenia to mix with the native population. That is why modern people of European Jewish descent look largely European in appearance rather than Middle-Eastern. The Israelites were a Semitic people closely related to the Arabs and Phoenicians. Despite all those paintings depicting Jesus as a blonde-haired blue-eyed dude, he would have looked like an Arab.

 

The European Jews did manage to preserve their religion and a separate cultural identy over the centuries, but that does not mean that they also preserved a purely Hebrew ethnic heritage.

[Cainhurst Crow]

 

The European Jews did manage to preserve their religion and a separate cultural identy over the centuries, but that does not mean that they also preserved a purely Hebrew ethnic heritage.

 

I'd say that aspect was probably the most important of all to identify them as being jewish, just in my opinion. Keeping their cultural identity of "jewish" over the centuries and keeping that identity as being paramount over being part of the greater local community.

[AkiKishi]

People tend to be a lot more serious about their religion than they are about their culture, a lot of the time because culture is a bit of an amorphous thing which is hard to pin down. In the case of migrants, they are equally likely to be trying to get away from said culture. 

[Han Shot First]

I'd say that aspect was probably the most important of all to identify them as being jewish, just in my opinion. Keeping their cultural identity of "jewish" over the centuries and keeping that identity as being paramount over being part of the greater local community.

The Romani are similar. Their ancestors arrived in Europe from India, but after centuries of mixing with the native population of Europe many of them look more European than Indian. They have however managed to maintain a separate cultural identity.

 

I think had Thedas' population been diverse from the start that over the millenia that diversity would have largely vanished without a steady stream of immigration from elsewhere, at least as far as many of the physical differences go. That is part of the reason why I'd prefer an Asian character come from Par Vollen or beyond, or from deep in the Korcari Wilds, than have him be an Orlesian knight descended from a long line of Orlesian knights. If Orlais had been settled by two tribes, one European in appearance and the other Asian, and these tribes later fused into a single trible or national entity, over the millenia either the smaller of the two groups would have been assimilated, or alternatively, if one tribe did not possess a significant population advantage, they'd have merged to the point that the average Orlesian should look biracial rather than white or Asian.

 

That is at least if Thedas mirrors our own world in the slightest. Everyone alive today on Earth is descended from a large variety of ethnic groups, whether they realize it or not. A person who says they are 100% French for example, may be descended from Gauls, Aquitanians, Romans, Franks, the original pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Europe, and numerous 'lost' tribes that once existed and vanished along that epic trek out of Africa into Europe.

 

The concept of racial or ethnic purity is a farce, so I'd have a hard time accepting that these various groups in Thedas managed to segregate themselves somehow and maintain physical differences for thousands of years despite living alongside each other in the same cities, towns, and villages. Ironically including an Asian character who was an Orlesian knight descended from a long line of Asian knights would send the opposite message of inclusivity; It would imply that the 'white' and 'Asian' Orlesians had managed to segregate themselves over the centuries.

[drome34]

I say yes to asian NPCs, aslong as it doesn't cost any white NPCs their role.

 

Asian NPCs would need a reason to be there.

[In Exile]

Essentially yeah, the price for admission is giving up everything of your peoples history and culture to become part of this new country. Call me old fashioned from having grown up in hawaii, but the price we had to pay for becoming a territory was an outlawing of our religion, language, our government being abolished, our people being bared from positions of power, and english and Americanization/Christianization efforts killing off any trace of our old culture.

Its a heavy price to pay when an entire people are made to come under the sway of another country. And on an individual level the process hasn't changed much, you kill off your old identity, which some people like and others fight to resist doing, and embrace a new identity that your newly adopted culture approves as socially acceptable. So yes, its a brainwashing that people accept as being okay to do, because to everyone else its bringing someone into a fold, instead of removing what was there before in favor of putting something more acceptable in its place.

 

There is a huge gulf between immigrants and native people that are forcibly annexed. Immigrants have lots of reasons for leaving their home country, and not all of them continue to identify or even want to acknowledge they are from somewhere other than their new home (e.g. me being a prime example of this). My old country was a corrupt shithole, the best decision my family ever made was to leave it behind, and my only cultural connection to the place was that circumstances conspired to have it so that I was born there. 

 

There's a spectrum for other immigrants, but you can't impose your own view on culture on what immigrants feel, because you're not an immigrant and don't understand what it is like to be one. 

[In Exile]

The bolded bit is actually incorrect and modern studies on DNA bear this out. Jews have been living in Europe since the Roman Empire, and have had millenia to mix with the native population. That is why modern people of European Jewish descent look largely European in appearance rather than Middle-Eastern. The Israelites were a Semitic people closely related to the Arabs and Phoenicians. Despite all those paintings depicting Jesus as a blonde-haired blue-eyed dude, he would have looked like an Arab.

 

The European Jews did manage to preserve their religion and a separate cultural identy over the centuries, but that does not mean that they also preserved a purely Hebrew ethnic heritage.

 

You're wrong. And we can easily tell you're wrong because of the higher incidence of certain genetic illnesses among certain groups of eastern european jews, like e.g. tay-sachs disease. 

[Allan Schumacher]

This.

 

If things were getting a bit heated, from my part it was frustration over that position being repeatedly misconstrued as an argument against a diverse cast. I'm actually in agreement with those who say they would like to see an Asian character in the next game. I just disagree with some of them on how that should be implemented. 

 

Okay fair enough.

 

This does seem to create a bias against a particular type of character portrayal though, doesn't it?  (especially when looked at in the aggregate of all gaming, not just one game?)

 

 

EDIT: My query was more "are we at a point where we need to agree to disagree?"  I can understand both perspectives, and I don't want to see people getting increasingly upset with each other because they disagree with the other person's perspective.

 

Disclaimer: I'm in the camp of I have no problems with their being more diversity and that it doesn't necessarily need to have a good reason for existing, mostly because creating a whole new culture is significantly more costly and there's the risk of it being subconsciously created in a stereotypical way of our own asian cultures.  One advantage of having them in "just because" reinforces the perspective that how someone looks doesn't mean very much for how their character is.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 juin 2014 - 07:31 .

[tmp7704]

The Romani are similar. Their ancestors arrived in Europe from India, but after centuries of mixing with the native population of Europe many of them look more European than Indian. They have however managed to maintain a separate cultural identity.

There's relatively minor differences between European and Indian features* to begin with so "more European than Indian" can be very vague threshold that's easy to cross in the viewer's mind without any mixing.

*) as far as these can be averaged, anyway. India is perhaps the most ethnically diverse region in the world, after all.

[In Exile]

There's relatively minor differences between European and Indian features* to begin with so "more European than Indian" can be very vague threshold that's easy to cross in the viewer's mind without any mixing.

*) as far as these can be averaged, anyway. India is perhaps the most ethnically diverse region in the world, after all.

 

A good example, IMO, is David Tennant (of Doctor Who fame) and the actor who played Mohinder on Heroes. They have a very similar facial structure, IMO. Mohinder also happens to have a very BBC English accent. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

So we all wouldn't mind asians in dragon age. How they get there is up for debate but screw it, whatever,  sick of debating in circles over it.

 

So now heres an honest question I have for this thread.

 

Which Asians are we talking about adding? 

[Mockingword]

So true. Playing a Bioware game is like playing a game viewed through the prism of 21st centuary values and sensibilites.

Playing The Witcher is like playing a game that reflects it's own values and the those of the world it occupies. 

I suppose, then, that we're ignoring the fact that the world of The Witcher is just as much a modern creation as the world of Dragon Age is, and any feelings you have to the contrary are purely illusory.

 

All games are viewed through "the prism of 21st century values and sensibilities", because that is literally the only perspective any of us have.

[Mockingword]

This.

 

If things were getting a bit heated, from my part it was frustration over that position being repeatedly misconstrued as an argument against a diverse cast. I'm actually in agreement with those who say they would like to see an Asian character in the next game. I just disagree with some of them on how that should be implemented. 

Yeah, well, I don't feel like waiting until "the next game", (which might be never) and I don't see why anyone should have to.

 

The existence of white people in fantasy never needs a special justification in lore. We just take it for granted that white humans are present (and usually dominant) in every single fantasy setting that exists, no matter how far-removed from Earth the setting actually is. It can have elves and dwarves and dragons and griffins, but heaven forbid any of those things look remotely Asian in appearance.

 

The story could be set on a planet made entirely of custard, and nobody would bat an eye. Until a person of colour showed up.

 

"An ASIAN? On the PLANET OF CUSTARD? But that doesn't make any sense! All the inhabitants of the PLANET OF CUSTARD so far have been white! Preposterous! I demand an explanation!"

[Cainhurst Crow]

But dragon age notably twists and scrunches itself up in order to conform to the prism.  While stuff like witcher and a song of ice and fire decide to not let the prism get in the way of telling a story with darker anx less nice elements to it.

 

Still, Im serious about wkndering which "asian" ethnicity people are actually looking to see in the game. Theres a lot of them, and they all look different in different ways.