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More Asians in Thedas, Please


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#601
Cainhurst Crow

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Yeah, well, I don't feel like waiting until "the next game", and I don't see why anyone should have to.
 
The existence of white people in fantasy never needs a special justification in lore. We just take it for granted that white humans are present (and usually dominant) in every fantasy setting, no matter how far-removed from Earth it actually is.
 
The story could be set on a planet made entirely of custard, and nobody would bat an eye until a person of colour showed up.
 
"An ASIAN? On the PLANET OF CUSTARD? But that doesn't make any sense! All the inhabitants of the PLANET OF CUSTARD so far have been white! Preposterous! I demand an explanation!"


You keep saying this but then stuff like jade empire and the outrage against Keanu Reeves in 47 ronin proves you wrong.

#602
tmp7704

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The bolded bit is actually incorrect and modern studies on DNA bear this out. Jews have been living in Europe since the Roman Empire, and have had millenia to mix with the native population. That is why modern people of European Jewish descent look largely European in appearance rather than Middle-Eastern. The Israelites were a Semitic people closely related to the Arabs and Phoenicians. Despite all those paintings depicting Jesus as a blonde-haired blue-eyed dude, he would have looked like an Arab.
 
The European Jews did manage to preserve their religion and a separate cultural identy over the centuries, but that does not mean that they also preserved a purely Hebrew ethnic heritage.

From the tl;dr on this particular subject, it appears that the modern studies on DNA conclude that while there's mixing of genetic material (mainly as result of female European converts to Judaism in the Roman Empire) various examined groups of Jewish people around the world share way more DNA with each other than with their individual neighbour non-Jewish hosts, even though they'd live next to these other people for 2500+ years.

So no, there's indeed no purely Hebrew heritage, but I don't think anyone really claimed that. Rather, the mixing that did happen was relatively limited, to the point where after these millennia you can still easily determine Jewish ethnicity of people who live nowadays, hundreds of generations after their ancestors left their homelands.

#603
In Exile

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You keep saying this but then stuff like jade empire and the outrage against Keanu Reeves in 47 ronin proves you wrong.

 

That's more like the Robert Downey Jr. in blackface for Tropic Thunder situation. It's totally different than anything this thread has talked about so far.



#604
Cainhurst Crow

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That's more like the Robert Downey Jr. in blackface for Tropic Thunder situation. It's totally different than anything this thread has talked about so far.


How was Robert Downey Jr. Offensive? How was Keanu Reeves playing the main character in a historical Japanese fantasy garbage action film not related to the topic of some here claiming nobody bats an eye to white people being in stories and only raise a stink about non-white folk?

#605
The Night Haunter

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Yeah, well, I don't feel like waiting until "the next game", (which might be never) and I don't see why anyone should have to.

 

The existence of white people in fantasy never needs a special justification in lore. We just take it for granted that white humans are present (and usually dominant) in every single fantasy setting that exists, no matter how far-removed from Earth the setting actually is. It can have elves and dwarves and dragons and griffins, but heaven forbid any of those things look remotely Asian in appearance.

 

The story could be set on a planet made entirely of custard, and nobody would bat an eye. Until a person of colour showed up.

 

"An ASIAN? On the PLANET OF CUSTARD? But that doesn't make any sense! All the inhabitants of the PLANET OF CUSTARD so far have been white! Preposterous! I demand an explanation!"

Clearly you never played Jade Empire, a game by this very company. There was a single white dude in the entire game, and he got his own special backstory as to why he was white. Your PC couldn't even be white/european looking.



#606
In Exile

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How was Robert Downey Jr. Offensive? How was Keanu Reeves playing the main character in a historical Japanese fantasy garbage action film not related to the topic of some here claiming nobody bats an eye to white people being in stories and only raise a stink about non-white folk?

 

If you don't understand how a white actor in blackface is offensive, I can't help you out.

 

And Keanu is a problem because he was supposed to play an asian character. It's the casting that's the issue. It's not like the Last Samurai, where Tom Cruise is actually white.  

It's like what they did in Cloud Atlas. 



#607
Mockingword

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But dragon age notably twists and scrunches itself up in order to conform to the prism.  While stuff like witcher and a song of ice and fire decide to not let the prism get in the way of telling a story with darker anx less nice elements to it.

 

Still, Im serious about wkndering which "asian" ethnicity people are actually looking to see in the game. Theres a lot of them, and they all look different in different ways.

Yeaaaaaaaaah, no. BioWare isn't even remotely as progressive as you or they think they are.

 

The Witcher and SOIAF very noticeably conform to 21st century standards (as evidenced by the fact that everyone has clear skin and perfect teeth). You think the "21st century prism" is the prism of the "social justice warriors" or some nonsense like that. For the sake of feeling validated, you conveniently ignore the fact that the vast majority of media (and the world generally) is still controlled by old, straight, mostly white men who couldn't give a crap about any of that, and only want to cater to themselves and people like them. IE, the people who love violence and big tittays.

 

The Witcher and SOIAF are the conformists. They took the safe bet. The easy bet. Doling out the gore and full-frontal female nudity and gratuitous, exploitative lesbian scenes that you can already find in hundreds of other movies and video games dating back to the era of silent film. Ethnic "minorities" and LGBT individuals are few, if there are any at all.

 

BioWare are the rebels. They welcome the outcasts that your preferred media products reject in order to appeal to the perceived "majority" of straight white dudes. And they do this at the cost of drowning under criticism for being "PC" and "cowardly".


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#608
Mockingword

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You keep saying this but then stuff like jade empire and the outrage against Keanu Reeves in 47 ronin proves you wrong.

Oh wow, two things out of literally the entire history of film and video games.

 

Good for you.



#609
Cainhurst Crow

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If you don't understand how a white actor in blackface is offensive, I can't help you out.
 
And Keanu is a problem because he was supposed to play an asian character. It's the casting that's the issue. It's not like the Last Samurai, where Tom Cruise is actually white.  
It's like what they did in Cloud Atlas.


No I dont understand how an actor who was playing an actor who did an astronomically dumb thing as we a black face, in a movie where a majority of the people tell his character what an absolute moron he is for wearing black face, is offensive. To me thats like saying Mississippi burning was offensive because it had the KKK in it, and ignoring that the KKK were shown to be horrible people throughout the film.

And I think you're just playing favorites with your distinctions of what is or isnt acceptable without rhyme or reason.

#610
In Exile

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No I dont understand how an actor who was playing an actor who did an astronomically dumb thing as we a black face, in a movie where a majority of the people tell his character what an absolute moron he is for wearing black face, is offensive. To me thats like saying Mississippi burning was offensive because it had the KKK in it, and ignoring that the KKK were shown to be horrible people throughout the film.

And I think you're just playing favorites with your distinctions of what is or isnt acceptable without rhyme or reason.

Oh, you just don't understand what I'm talking about with Robert Downey Jr. I specifically referred to the movie, and not to the actor, and to the backlash in the movie. You can rant however much you want about being misunderstood, but at least try to keep pace with the discussion. 

 

And I note that you didn't address the Keanu casting point at all. 



#611
Cainhurst Crow

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What point? That's his character was supposed to be half-Japanese or some nonsense like that, but didn't look a this like it, in all around terribad film?

What's not to get?

#612
addiction21

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If you don't understand how a white actor in blackface is offensive, I can't help you out.

 

And Keanu is a problem because he was supposed to play an asian character. It's the casting that's the issue. It's not like the Last Samurai, where Tom Cruise is actually white.  

It's like what they did in Cloud Atlas. 

 

Maybe I misunderstand but are you being negative about what they did with Cloud Atlas?



#613
In Exile

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What point? That's his character was supposed to be half-Japanese or some nonsense like that, but didn't look a this like it, in all around terribad film?

What's not to get?

 

The blacklash was that they cast someone who wasn't asian - or half asian - to play someone who was, which is a problem. That's where you get the backlash you were referring to from. 

 

Maybe I misunderstand but are you being negative about what they did with Cloud Atlas?

 

They had characters flip race and gender. White actors playing asian characters and vice versa, men playing women, etc. 



#614
The Night Haunter

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Oh wow, two things out of literally the entire history of film and video games.

 

Good for you.

The vast majority of games and movies are marketed to an American audience. Even the majority of Japanese games have primarily white antagonists (often with some small features hinting at maybe being 1/8th Japanese) so there aren't a whole host of games with non-white casts we can draw from.

 

But good job refuting a perfectly valid argument against your point by.... doing nothing?



#615
wolfhowwl

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Yeaaaaaaaaah, no. BioWare isn't even remotely as progressive as you or they think they are.

 

The Witcher and SOIAF very noticeably conform to 21st century standards (as evidenced by the fact that everyone has clear skin and perfect teeth). You think the "21st century prism" is the prism of the "social justice warriors" or some nonsense like that. For the sake of feeling validated, you conveniently ignore the fact that the vast majority of media (and the world generally) is still controlled by old, straight, mostly white men who couldn't give a crap about any of that, and only want to cater to themselves and people like them. IE, the people who love violence and big tittays.

 

The Witcher and SOIAF are the conformists. They took the safe bet. The easy bet. Doling out the gore and full-frontal female nudity and gratuitous, exploitative lesbian scenes that you can already find in hundreds of other movies and video games dating back to the era of silent film. Ethnic "minorities" and LGBT individuals are few, if there are any at all.

 

BioWare are the rebels. They welcome the outcasts that your preferred media products reject in order to appeal to the perceived "majority" of straight white dudes. And they do this at the cost of drowning under criticism for being "PC" and "cowardly".

 

"perceived majority"

 

Hahahaha


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#616
AkiKishi

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Why did they cast Keanu in that movie ? Did he pay for it or something like that ? Or was it some sort of "this is the only way we will get people to watch it kind of thing"?



#617
Devtek

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Okay fair enough.

 

This does seem to create a bias against a particular type of character portrayal though, doesn't it?  (especially when looked at in the aggregate of all gaming, not just one game?)

 

 

EDIT: My query was more "are we at a point where we need to agree to disagree?"  I can understand both perspectives, and I don't want to see people getting increasingly upset with each other because they disagree with the other person's perspective.

 

Disclaimer: I'm in the camp of I have no problems with their being more diversity and that it doesn't necessarily need to have a good reason for existing, mostly because creating a whole new culture is significantly more costly and there's the risk of it being subconsciously created in a stereotypical way of our own asian cultures.  One advantage of having them in "just because" reinforces the perspective that how someone looks doesn't mean very much for how their character is.

 

The biggest problem for the one camp (inclusion but w/ a story / setting) is that we don't like "token" or "random" people just turning up and there are probably plenty of examples of worlds where there are just one or two "different" people show up and their characters end up being shoe-horned into being the "different" person simply because they are the only one there that is actually different. Having a whole new culture that introduces a compelling new addition to the world is something that is far more interesting from a story perspective.  Would I play DAx if you (the grand you here) randomly sprinkled people of various earthly visages into the game where there wasn't any before? Yes I would play (my enjoyment of a game is not dependent on the looks of a random npc or spikes as some crazy people on these boards seem to get catatonic about) it but it would be weird, just weird. Not wrong or stupid or offensive or whatever adjective people in this thread are throwing around now, just weird. The same kind of weird I felt when Isabella, the elves, dwarves looked completely / noticeably different in DA2. I still played the game multiple times and I still enjoyed it.  I just thought some things about it were weird.

 

In this regard, this is the reason why it would be nice to have a story based explanation for their being there.  The rest of the humans don't even need to comment on it because they could have been their all along (like the qunari). It would simply be nice to know that those people (of whatever variety) actually had a place where they came from rather than just popping into existence when they were not there before.  If the previous media had people of random ethnicity just sprinkled through the world then this wouldn't be an issue for me; its only because this has not been the case across 2 games (more if you count the social games), four books (where descriptions were available), and a number of comics.  The world exists in a certain state; can it be changed without reason? Of course, an explanation would just make more sense to me.

 

Put purple people in for all I care, but I want a purple people pod that pops purple people out too.


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#618
Das Tentakel

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From the tl;dr on this particular subject, it appears that the modern studies on DNA conclude that while there's mixing of genetic material (mainly as result of female European converts to Judaism in the Roman Empire) various examined groups of Jewish people around the world share way more DNA with each other than with their individual neighbour non-Jewish hosts, even though they'd live next to these other people for 2500+ years.

So no, there's indeed no purely Hebrew heritage, but I don't think anyone really claimed that. Rather, the mixing that did happen was relatively limited, to the point where after these millennia you can still easily determine Jewish ethnicity of people who live nowadays, hundreds of generations after their ancestors left their homelands.

 

I'd like to add that distinctive traits and their basis, actual genetic differences, can persist in countries that have been politically united for a long time and have had the same religion and a similar culture. The UK has several distinctive 'zones' in terms of DNA, which probably correlate with levels of admixture between Romano-Britons, Gaels, Picts, Anglo-Saxons and Norse / Danes. The pattern sometimes becomes even clearer when one looks at small-scale, local studies that use a combination of sources (DNA, historically or etymologically clearly long-established regional family names, that sort of thing).

Some areas simply 'mixed up' very recently, meaning during the last couple of centuries, when people became more mobile within the UK. If the respective 'source' populations had been more immediately distinguishable in terms of phenotypical traits, you would get VERY clearly discernable differences between regions.

There are actually a number of countries where you can easily recognise this, particularly in North Africa, the Middle East, Iran etc. 

The last major migrations into these countries are a long time ago (basically the medieval period), yet they harbour a highly varied range of phenotypical traits, even among people speaking the same language and having the same variety of Christianity or Islam.

 

And it isn't always religious barriers or social customs or language either. There's a whole range of circumstances that influence whether a population becomes thoroughly mixed up or not; historical populations aren't homogenous or homogenizing masses, they consist of a great many local populations who vary enormously in their ability or willingness to mix. It is only during particular periods and in particular regions that mass mobility and homogenizing trends (cultural, linguistic, genetic) occur. 

 

Our popular image of Thedas is that of Europe, with its people looking mostly northern / western European; that is obviously the original intention and a logical assumption given the clear analogies. However, demographically one might envisage it like Iran or Turkey or Algeria, settled by phenotypically distinctive populations who have partly mixed but also partly retained their traits in many regions or, otherwise, have those traits popping up in individuals after several generations. 

 

This isn't my 'favoured' solution for a diverse Thedas, but it's an option; it would require a bit of a retcon, though, in the sense of discarding the 99.99% 'white' characters from the games as being a canonical representation of the Thedosian populations.


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#619
Mihura

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Why does there need to be a lore explanation for putting something other than white.

Clap, clap, clap! This is something that always made me question the north-american vision of Europe, why are people always assuming everyone is white by default in Europe?



#620
Deviija

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I am eyeballing this Keanu tangent.  Keanu IS asian.  A part of his heritage is Chinese.  He has every right to claim it.  An asian actor playing an asian role is very acceptable.  Now, the issue over a Chinese actor playing a Japanese person, particularly historical drama?  That is different.  It is something that happens often in Hollywood movie casting and can be problematic due to forms of erasure or 'all asians look the same/are the same, so who cares' racism.  

 

As to the topic itself, I'd appreciate seeing more asian people in Thedas.  We've seen but a small fraction of Thedas, the world, to judge what kind of populations and mixes and variety of people there are out there, let alone what distributions there might be on a country by country basis. We've mostly seen Ferelden in the franchise.  Keep in mind that Ferelden is not even remotely a large part of Thedas, it is literally a tiny rainy mudpie of a country, and does not represent the world itself.  It'd be like saying Belgium represents Earth.

 

I don't see the need to make an entirely unique snowflake country/region where all the various asian-looking people dwell.  You can have a region where there is a higher population density of asian people, sure, just like how Rivaini people are a higher density population of darker-skinned people, but I really detest the idea that such places are the ONLY places where x race/skintone comes from.  I've seen people point to Vivienne and assume she's not Orlesian because of her skintone.  If she is born in Orlais, then she is Orlesian.  Does she need special circumstance and explanation for being dark-skinned and Orlesian?  No.



#621
drome34

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Clap, clap, clap! This is something that always made me question the north-american vision of Europe, why are people always assuming everyone is white by default in Europe?

True, I guess. Also depends on how you define white I guess? Until recently we scandinavians were pretty much 99,99% white. Now we have a massive influx of state sponsored immigrants. We used to call anybody who didnt look like us "blackheads" which pretty much means  uncivilised people. Now that word is illegal and you get 6 months in jail if you say it if you are white. Who is white , and who determins it?



#622
drome34

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Yeaaaaaaaaah, no. BioWare isn't even remotely as progressive as you or they think they are.

 

The Witcher and SOIAF very noticeably conform to 21st century standards (as evidenced by the fact that everyone has clear skin and perfect teeth). You think the "21st century prism" is the prism of the "social justice warriors" or some nonsense like that. For the sake of feeling validated, you conveniently ignore the fact that the vast majority of media (and the world generally) is still controlled by old, straight, mostly white men who couldn't give a crap about any of that, and only want to cater to themselves and people like them. IE, the people who love violence and big tittays.

 

The Witcher and SOIAF are the conformists. They took the safe bet. The easy bet. Doling out the gore and full-frontal female nudity and gratuitous, exploitative lesbian scenes that you can already find in hundreds of other movies and video games dating back to the era of silent film. Ethnic "minorities" and LGBT individuals are few, if there are any at all.

 

BioWare are the rebels. They welcome the outcasts that your preferred media products reject in order to appeal to the perceived "majority" of straight white dudes. And they do this at the cost of drowning under criticism for being "PC" and "cowardly".

 

Massive failure all over this post. Where do you even get your statistics from? And how on earth do these, apparently mostly white males, owners make a profit by discriminating against their own (potential) customers? They cant. Which is why they dont. The media and the world at large looks the way it does most likely because its the most profitable way to do it. If black people had as much, or more, purchasing power as whites they would have their very own catered-to media and entertainment. 

 

I think the whole thing is spelled profit. If there is profit to do something, entrepeneurs like bioware (or the media/whatever) will do it. They might also do some things despite there being little or no profit in doing so, but in general they want to simply make money or build a brand. 

 

Since it is apparently fine to say white straight men run the media , I might note, for curiosities sake, that most of the biggest papers,publishers, school books, and TV-channels in Sweden are owned and made by jews. We dont call them "white". Maybe you americans do. We don't.

 

In the USA it is the following men who run the biggest media corporations, :

 

Geral levin , AOL Time warner

 

Michael Eisner, Walt disney

 

Edgar bronfman, Seagram company

 

Sumner redstone, Viacom

 

Barry meyer, Warner brothers

 

Michael lynton, Sony pictures

 

Leslie Moonves, CBS

 

Harry Sloan, MGM

 

Jeff Zucker, NBC

 

Brian Graden, MTV

 

Wanna guess what they all have in common?


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#623
Neon Rising Winter

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Massive failure all over this post. Where do you even get your statistics from? And how on earth do these, apparently mostly white males, owners make a profit by discriminating against their own (potential) customers? They cant. Which is why they dont. The media and the world at large looks the way it does most likely because its the most profitable way to do it. If black people had as much, or more, purchasing power as whites they would have their very own catered-to media and entertainment. 

 

I think the whole thing is spelled profit. If there is profit to do something, entrepeneurs like bioware (or the media/whatever) will do it. They might also do some things despite there being little or no profit in doing so, but in general they want to simply make money or build a brand.

 

I think that's rather a naive view that oversimplifies the reasons why commercial enterprises will pursue certain courses. There's a lot more of the lemming to them than you're acknowledging, and god knows plenty of them would slit their own throats rather than go against internal culture, all the while producing reports by the bucketload to support their approach.

 

I once had a cheerful year working for a company that, with the full knowledge of senior management, basically committed fraud for no better reason than 'this is the way we've always done things' despite clear guidance this was no longer acceptable. Cost them millions, they escaped prosecution by the skin of their teeth and the jury's still out on whether it will destroy them. That's an extreme example, but you can get that kind of stupidity writ small as well as large. Profit is not some magic charm that defeats corporate inertia.



#624
Aimi

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The bolded bit is actually incorrect and modern studies on DNA bear this out.

 
These are repeatedly brought up, both in this thread and others, and I want to take a moment to point out that merely saying "modern studies! DNA!" doesn't really mean anything.

Most academic studies that attempt to use DNA evidence to analyze historical events do so with a previous understanding of the historical context in which those events took place. An example: the so-called Völkerwanderung, or Migration Period, that characterized western Eurasian history about a millennium and a half ago. For many, many years, accepted historical orthodoxy was that the most important events of those times were vast migrations by people from Central Asia and northern Europe into the former territories of the Roman Empire. So when people started to try to look at DNA evidence from remains that dated back to that period, they looked for similarities between remains from inside the Roman Empire and outside it. They then tried to connect these findings with modern populations, which would supposedly display similar genetic markers as the migratory people. Not surprisingly, they found exactly what they were looking for; this was touted as evidence that the Migration Period really did happen the way people had been saying that it did.

The chief problem with this analysis is that during the same time, academic historians and archaeologists have turned an increasingly critical eye on the notion that migrations played the sort of role that people used to think that they did. Even the most generous estimate of migratory activity, by Peter Heather, suggests that less than half a million persons could have even theoretically moved into Roman territory; compared with a Roman population forty or fifty times greater at least, the migrants would be genetically invisible. Other scholars, such as Walter Goffart and Guy Halsall (more credibly, in my opinion) revise even these numbers down further, and point out that migration (although it did happen) was largely background noise compared to the tumultuous domestic upheavals in the Roman military, government, and society. They also note that other periods in Eurasian history have seen numerically greater amounts of migration, both before the Völkerwanderung and after it.

Halsall has drawn out criticisms of many of the DNA studies (and ones of similar "scientific" pretension and aim but different methods, such as analysis of the mineral content in late-Roman teeth) that they find what they are looking for precisely because they are looking for it. Their methodology is often shoddy (even if the scientific level of the analysis is hard to question). In many cases, the experiments have no real controls, so that they compare post-Roman and 'German' DNA without having, say, DNA from remains in Syria or Indochina to check against those similarities. Another problem is the dating. Methodologically, there are reasons to question any attempt to show that certain genetic markers started to show up in a given area at a specific time, and as such one could make the highly relevant criticism that even if these genetic markers can be identified with a certain population concentrated in a defined geographical space and associated with certain political and cultural customs (extremely dubious), there is simply no way to tell if they were passed from Germany to Britain by a Saxon mercenary of the fifth century or a member of the King's German Legion in the nineteenth century. Finally, there are severe problems with the sample sizes involved (almost never statistically significant enough to be able to generalize across "races").

For these kinds of reasons, I am very skeptical of any attempts to prove anything about a connection between historical races and genetic markers. Given the history of what these papers have done and what they've tried to prove, any further research on historical genetics needs to be pretty damn amazing for me to do anything other than ignore it out of hand.

It also concerns me that this emphasis on genetics and race does a great deal to muddle the issue, destroy modern understandings of the complexity of identity, and return people's historical understanding to the sorry state it was in during the era of Toynbee and Spengler. To take the example from the quoted post again, you refer to skin color, geography, religion, ethnicity, and linguistics almost interchangeably. That's a problem, less for the specifics of your actual example (blond-haired, blue-eyed Jesus is pretty unlikely, although I have to say that I usually see him depicted with brown or black hair) and more because it is indicative of an understanding of identity that simply won't fly.

---

On the actual subject of the thread, that of "Asians in Thedas", I stand by my earlier comment. I simply do not understand why people believe that individuals who possess stereotypically East Asian facial features are not realistic in the setting. Those features are available in the character creator. If the game devs think that the setting's "realism" can survive Asian Hawke and an Asian Warden, I can't imagine any plausible arguments against the realism of other Thedosian "Asians".
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#625
tmp7704

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Massive failure all over this post. Where do you even get your statistics from? And how on earth do these, apparently mostly white males, owners make a profit by discriminating against their own (potential) customers? They cant. Which is why they dont. The media and the world at large looks the way it does most likely because its the most profitable way to do it. If black people had as much, or more, purchasing power as whites they would have their very own catered-to media and entertainment.

Speaking of massive failures, what makes you equate catering to more social groups with "discriminating against one's own"?