709 réponses à ce sujet

[drome34]

I considered that interpretation of your words but it seemed less plausible -- since it'd mean you're saying that not including non-white people in the productions isn't actually discriminating against these people. Which would be pretty obtuse when the whole thing stems from people saying that not being included feels exactly like being discriminated against, to them.

 

So , basically, the whole world should go bankrupt by makeing useless productions that doesn't pay off so people dont "feel" something? Thats abit obtuse. I bet white people aren't included or considered in many Chinese or Japanese or Kenyan productions. Simply because white folks dont have any monetary clout over there. 

 

Besides, any private company should have the right to discriminate against whomever it wants. Its not up to you or me to say how an entrepeneur should run his business. No matter what people "feel", you should have no right to bankrupt someone or force someone to serve you. But we shall see. Telling people you don't want to make gay wedding cakes is illeagal someplaces in USA. Maybe, one glorius day, bioware will be forced to  include in its games the following:

 

10% women

10% men

10% homosexual

10% coloured

10% jews

10% muslims

10% redheads

10% lefthanded

10% great-grandchildren of Genghis Khan

10% people who have never been to New York

 

In the name of equality and multiculture and nobody feeling left out or discriminated against.

 

Who determines who is white and who isn't?

[Das Tentakel]

As a little aside, the recent action (French-made) RPG Bound by Flame included, from the get go, northern European, southern European / Mediterranean, East Asian, Sub-Saharan African and one 'mixed' looking 'phenotype' in their character generator. The CG is very limited and Bound by Flame is a small title (pretty decent actually, but overpriced for what you get - wait for a Steam sale or something), but I thought it a very positive action.

There's no in-lore explanation for this - BbF's world is very generic and sketchily described, probably deliberately so (the studio, Spiders, is capable of better worldbuilding than this, but it has a 'our publisher/financier wanted a generic game and we gave them what they wanted' vibe about it).

As such, this looks like an example of the practical implementation of the 'inclusiveness' argument. 

 

 

Funcom's Age of Conan would probably be a good example of the 'logical worldbuilding argument', better than Skyrim's. The four peoples in the game pretty much represent most of the range of human phenotypes between them, but the CC also allows a member of one people to phenotypically approximate a person from another people quite a bit, if not always completely.

Both approaches totally work for me in this respect.

[Zazzerka]

10% people who have never been to New York

 

Finally, some recognition. I've spent my entire life only being able to say, "Ayyy, I'm walkin' 'ere, I'm walkin' 'ere!" ironically.

[LinksOcarina]

I don't know why I'm constantly surprised whenever I see people flock to any thread asking for more representation in order to decry it or veto it or whatnot. The arguments against representation are usually one of the following: -snip-

 

Or, because Asians and Europeans don't exist in Thedas. 

 

You know, for a group of people who are very protective about lore and motivations in fantasy role-playing, a lot of real world socio-political posturing is going on lately to be inclusive regarding something that, in game terms, never existed. This is just one example of it. 

 

As I said before, last I checked we have Orlesians, Tevene, Rivaini, and Free Marchers, but no Europeans, Asians, Africans or Indians. I guess its foolish to accuse people for justifying de-facto racism when races don't exist in your game world. At least if you ask me. 

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

As a little aside, the recent action (French-made) RPG Bound by Flame included, from the get go, northern European, southern European / Mediterranean, East Asian, Sub-Saharan African and one 'mixed' looking 'phenotype' in their character generator. The CG is very limited and Bound by Flame is a small title (pretty decent actually, but overpriced for what you get - wait for a Steam sale or something), but I thought it a very positive action.

There's no in-lore explanation for this - BbF's world is very generic and sketchily described, probably deliberately so (the studio, Spiders, is capable of better worldbuilding than this, but it has a 'our publisher/financier wanted a generic game and we gave them what they wanted' vibe about it).

As such, this looks like a practical example of the 'inclusiveness' argument. 

 

 

Funcom's Age of Conan would probably be a good example of the 'logical worldbuilding argument', better than Skyrim's. The four peoples in the game pretty much represent most of the range of human phenotypes between them, but the CC also allows a member of one people to phenotypically approximate a person from another people quite a bit, if not always completely.

Both approaches totally work for me in this respect.

So basically what I was describing?

[AkiKishi]

So basically what I was describing?

 

Only applies to the player character though. Rather than to the world as a whole. There is the blacksmith, but that's the only other person that comes to mind in the entire game.

[Ryzaki]

Not really, since the devs always wanted the qunari to have horns (and originally a tail, but that one didn't make a comeback). 

 

Wait what?

 

The Qunari were originally gonna be the furry fuel?

[Das Tentakel]

So basically what I was describing?

Effectively yes.

 

Only applies to the player character though. Rather than to the world as a whole. There is the blacksmith, but that's the only other person that comes to mind in the entire game.

 
Quite, but there's not much world in-game to be precise. The world has gone to hell and a bunch of frost-loving mini-Saurons - the Ice Lords - have practically won. Your character is a mercenary (without any stated origins) who is part of a last-ditch attempt to save the world. Presumably the wider world is quite diverse, but that's not the game's primary (or even secondary) concern.
There are some hints that seem to suggest the Icelords first emerged in the north of their world's northern hemisphere, then rolled south all the way into the southern one; the game's actual locations may be in its world's temperate southern sections of the southern hemisphere. It's not clearly stated though.
 

Wait what?
 
The Qunari were originally gonna be the furry fuel?

Not exactly. Some old stuff you can find on the Internet indicates they were originally conceived as lizardy people with horns.
 

We did see one completely new race that will be in the game, though. Although they don't have a name as of yet, or at least BioWare wasn't saying what the name was, the characters sport horns on their heads and look rather lizard (or perhaps dragon) like.

(source: http://www.ign.com/a...2004-dragon-age )
  
Conceptually a bit like these guys (Dragonlance Draconians), from the sound of it, but without the wings:

 

[AkiKishi]

Quite, but there's not much world in-game to be precise. The world has gone to hell and a bunch of frost-loving mini-Saurons - the Ice Lords - have practically won. Your character is a mercenary (without any stated origins) who is part of a last-ditch attempt to save the world. Presumably the wider world is quite diverse, but that's not your concern.

There are some hints that seem to suggest the Icelords first emerged in the north of their world's northern hemisphere, then rolled south all the way into the southern one; the game's actual locations may be in its world's temperate southern sections of the southern hemisphere. It's not clearly stated though.

 

I've played it 4 times. Curious how they will tackle any sort of next installment with the endings they had. Mathras comments on the origins of the Ice Lords. But as you say, it's not really fleshed out like a real RPG (as in table top) world would be. 

 

Racial choice for PCs is quite common. Even JRPGs without set characters do it. Only Nintendo seem kind of oblivious although not with any sort of malicious intent. 

 

My vote for progressive would probably go to Sucker Punch for Second Sons protagonist. 

[tmp7704]

So , basically, the whole world should go bankrupt by makeing useless productions that doesn't pay off so people dont "feel" something?

That's some world record material leap, going from "including varied people" to "whole world going bankrupt because useless productions".

Why do you think merely having more variety in the production makes it "useless"?

[Darth Krytie]

That's some world record material leap, going from "including varied people" to "whole world going bankrupt because useless productions".

Why do you think merely having more variety in the production makes it "useless"?

 

Gotta love the implication that 'inclusive' material is somehow innately inferior. It couldn't possibly retain quality and enjoyability if things start being more inclusive. *rolls eyes*

 

(Not directed at you, but what you replied to)

[Bugsie]

 

That's some world record material leap, going from "including varied people" to "whole world going bankrupt because useless productions".
 

I must admit getting a raucous laugh out of that post.

 

All that inclusiveness making companies go bankrupt left right and centre don't you know!  

 

I would argue that everything in that post is absolutely bonkers, but it's late and my vision is blurred from all the eye rolling.  Good luck getting a sensible response!

[Allan Schumacher]

As I said CC only applies to a specific persons game so it really makes no difference to anyone else. If it makes someone happy to see an analog of themselves in the game by only changing their game, then you lose nothing either way.

And as I said, if the colour of the skin is never acknowledged elsewhere, this particular exception doesn't actually exist for the PC. Unless you're suggesting that if we had more diversity, we'd need the in game characters to actually acknowledge the differences (a position I would disagree with).

It seems, to me, that we've opted to use the dwarves/elves/humans/qunari as our racial divide, rather than real life examples.

[Steelcan]

 

The existence of white people in fantasy never needs a special justification in lore. We just take it for granted that white humans are present (and usually dominant) in every single fantasy setting that exists, no matter how far-removed from Earth the setting actually is. It can have elves and dwarves and dragons and griffins, but heaven forbid any of those things look remotely Asian in appearance.

 

The existence of white people in Thedas is justified by the fact that they came from the Northern lands and settles lands around Ferelden and Orlais, and splintered into tribes, nations, etc...

 

I'd expect any other ethnicity to have a similar backstory

[tmp7704]

The existence of white people in Thedas is justified by the fact that they came from the Northern lands and settles lands around Ferelden and Orlais, and splintered into tribes, nations, etc...

I feel we've been through this particular tangent in this thread already, but it's not much of justification to speak of -- it doesn't justify why it's the white people that came to Thedas and not e.g. Asian-looking people which would make just as much sense. It also doesn't justify why it's the white people that happen to live in these unexplored regions when they could be of any colour and appearance.

[Star fury]

It seems, to me, that we've opted to use the dwarves/elves/humans/qunari as our racial divide, rather than real life examples.

 

It wasn't a bad way. Andzhey Sapkovskiy portrayed fantasy racism with "the dwarves/elves/humans" perfectly in his books. I quite enjoyed how class segregation in Dwarf Commoner origin or racism in Elven origins were shown too (especially with a poor casteless dwarf).

[Steelcan]

I feel we've been through this particular tangent in this thread already, but it's not much of justification to speak of -- it doesn't justify why it's the white people that came to Thedas and not e.g. Asian-looking people which would make just as much sense. It also doesn't justify why it's the white people that happen to live in these unexplored regions when they could be of any colour and appearance.

its simply part of the setting, we have white people in orlais and Ferelden because of that, darker skinned people in Tevinter and Rivain and Antiva

 

You can ask why its white people who settled Orlais and Ferelden all you want, but they did, since Asian looking people aren't seen in large numbers if at all in DA:O they a re clearly not a native population, so I'd to see an explanation expanding on the lore as to why they are there

 

 

but you are right this tangent has seem to run its course

[Das Tentakel]

I feel we've been through this particular tangent in this thread already, but it's not much of justification to speak of -- it doesn't justify why it's the white people that came to Thedas and not e.g. Asian-looking people which would make just as much sense. It also doesn't justify why it's the white people that happen to live in these unexplored regions when they could be of any colour and appearance.

 

Adding to this, in a nutshell: worldbuilding rules might apply if what's there already clearly follows sensible, logical worldbuilding rules. That isn't the case - Thedas isn't exactly the world's finest example of meticulous and logical fantasy worldbuilding - and this means making Thedas (almost uniformly) 'white' extremely arbitrary. And I'm saying this as a regular logical worldbuilding nerd   .

[drome34]

That's some world record material leap, going from "including varied people" to "whole world going bankrupt because useless productions".

Why do you think merely having more variety in the production makes it "useless"?

 

Its useless for certain consumers, or we would have seen it already. Why dont a news site about economics have a sport section? Answer: Its wasted resources because no-one who reads that particular news site comes for the sports.

 

 

Gotta love the implication that 'inclusive' material is somehow innately inferior. It couldn't possibly retain quality and enjoyability if things start being more inclusive. *rolls eyes*

 

(Not directed at you, but what you replied to)

 

Its not inferior material per se. Its just that its inferior to the particular consumers. If 50% of all movies were all-black casting, then plenty of movie companies would probably go bankrupt since plenty of other races wouldn't see any value in going and see many of the movies. Same doesn't hold true for all-white productions (yet) since there are enough white people to go and spend their cash. Altough, I would argue, if everything was catering to all-white people, many companies would go bankrupt as well since non-whites are many millions of people and spend billions each year on entertainment or whatever is particular to them.

 

This is the same for bioware, if they make no profit by including something (diversity) in their game, then why do it? It could lead to a monetary loss. And if they go too far it could lead to bankruptcy.

 

 

 

I must admit getting a raucous laugh out of that post.

 

All that inclusiveness making companies go bankrupt left right and centre don't you know!  

 

I would argue that everything in that post is absolutely bonkers, but it's late and my vision is blurred from all the eye rolling.  Good luck getting a sensible response!

 

 

Im happy I could entertain you! Yes, think of all those stupid, stupid entrepeneurs who dont include more variety! When there is billions of cash waiting for them if they do! ... oh, wait!

 

Do you smell it? I smell it. You sir, have a profound and excellent business idea! Just take any business, and simply add the ingreadient of variety/multiculture/diversety and you will make millions hand over fist. I wonder why so few people do it... lets hope bioware understands this and reads my checklist over people who should be included in the post above!

[AkiKishi]

And as I said, if the colour of the skin is never acknowledged elsewhere, this particular exception doesn't actually exist for the PC. Unless you're suggesting that if we had more diversity, we'd need the in game characters to actually acknowledge the differences (a position I would disagree with).

It seems, to me, that we've opted to use the dwarves/elves/humans/qunari as our racial divide, rather than real life examples.

 

I would say that by adding nationalities as gameplay it would encourage people to try that out. In much the same way people replayed Origins as other races to get a different perspective on things.

 

I've seen behind the curtain as it were I know there is no reason to ever really play anything other than the default human unless I feel like messing with the CC. I'd actually like that to change.Where as playing as a different (Elf.Dwarf etc.) acknowledged race will add new gameplay and new perspective. Which is why my first character will be a Qnari since it's something completely new.

[Allan Schumacher]

So , basically, the whole world should go bankrupt by makeing useless productions that doesn't pay off so people dont "feel" something? Thats abit obtuse. I bet white people aren't included or considered in many Chinese or Japanese or Kenyan productions. Simply because white folks dont have any monetary clout over there. 

 

Besides, any private company should have the right to discriminate against whomever it wants. Its not up to you or me to say how an entrepeneur should run his business. No matter what people "feel", you should have no right to bankrupt someone or force someone to serve you. But we shall see. Telling people you don't want to make gay wedding cakes is illeagal someplaces in USA. Maybe, one glorius day, bioware will be forced to  include in its games the following:

 

10% women

10% men

10% homosexual

10% coloured

10% jews

10% muslims

10% redheads

10% lefthanded

10% great-grandchildren of Genghis Khan

10% people who have never been to New York

 

In the name of equality and multiculture and nobody feeling left out or discriminated against.

 

Who determines who is white and who isn't?

 

The issue isn't with a single game.  I have no issue with a game featuring entirely a particular race (whether that race be white or otherwise).  Also, for all the people that tell me "it doesn't matter what people look like" I'm not convinced that it'd be a bankrupting move.

 

It's not a checklist of meeting desired quotas for any particular game.

[Mockingword]

The existence of white people in Thedas is justified by the fact that they came from the Northern lands and settles lands around Ferelden and Orlais, and splintered into tribes, nations, etc...

 

I'd expect any other ethnicity to have a similar backstory

Lol, okay.

 

So anyone who comes from the amorphous and unspecified "North" is just automatically white.

[tmp7704]

Its useless for certain consumers, or we would have seen it already. Why dont a news site about economics have a sport section? Answer: Its wasted resources because no-one who reads that particular news site comes for the sports.

I'll ignore the obvious absurdity of equating different ethnicities with economics/sport, in favour of pointing out that the most popular news sites carry news about economics and sports as well as multiple other subject.

Doesn't that just blow your mind.

edit: also, 'we would have seen it already'? You are aware there is productions out there which do feature more varied casts, aren't you? So by your own logic if we've seen it, it is apparently profitable... and so where does the world bankruptcy thing come from, again?

[Aimi]

Lol, okay.
 
So anyone who comes from the amorphous and unspecified "North" is just automatically white.

Even when you're in the southern hemisphere.

[Mockingword]

It never ceases to astound me how readily people will fall back on "XYZ has the right to be racist or homophobic if it wants to!"

 

Like, seriously. If the best defense you can come up with for that kind of behaviour is "At least it's not illegal!", then you need to rethink your position.

 

And why does this right apparently only exist for the companies being criticised, and not for the individuals doing the criticising.

 

"Companies have the right to be racist if they want, so you should shut up! Calling them out on their racism is unfair and might cost them business!"

 

Also, the whole "some people might not buy it!" argument (as if that's not an inherent risk of every design decision BioWare makes). I think there are some customers that most developers would be happy to lose. Does any company really want to be known as "the ones that make that game series that racists love"? Is Aryan Nations a big market for the video game industry?