709 réponses à ce sujet

[javeart]

Make another Jade Empire game, please. I would love that. I don't remember people saying there needed to be more minorities or white folks in Jade Empire. Dragon Age is medieval European.

More racial diversity in games, yes please. More political correctness, no, thank you.

 

Should also DA be realistic and medieval about women status and non heterosexual relationships treatment? I'd rather not. I don't see the problem in having all the racial diversity needed. I would not even bother to give them other nationalities. In fact I've always wondered why did they go with white-european lookings from the start. I think there was no need

[Bugsie]

Make another Jade Empire game, please. I would love that. I don't remember people saying there needed to be more minorities or white folks in Jade Empire. Dragon Age is medieval European.
More racial diversity in games, yes please. More political correctness, no, thank you.

Nice conflation of 'diversity' and 'political correctness'.

And nice to see the old Chestnut of Jade Empire yet again been dragged into a discussion on inclusion. 'What, we gave you a whole game what more do you want!'

[Lurklen]

Think about it?

 I don't get the question. Should I think about what I said or the guy from Jade empire. I meant a Christopher Columbus from another culture inspired by Asia. Not even one part, it could be a huge nation spanning empire with lots of different cultures. I'd love to see Indian culture get some love, many people have no idea just how crazy neat the history of that region is. When I was younger I didn't really have any concept of what it was like before it became what we think of today as India. I think it would be interesting to a lot of people.

 

 I feel like people get very caught up in the look of different "races", which I understand. But I'd really like to see some more cultural diversity given center stage.

[Lady Nuggins]

I always found it curious that sea ports that see a lot of trade don't have more racial diversity in Thedas.  It would be perfectly believable to see tons of people of color walking around Kirkwall, at least around the docks.

[DaySeeker]

Should also DA be realistic and medieval about women status and non heterosexual relationships treatment? I'd rather not. I don't see the problem in having all the racial diversity needed. I would not even bother to give them other nationalities. In fact I've always wondered why did they go with white-european lookings from the start. I think there was no need

This argument makes no sense.  Race and cultural norms are very different issues.  Also, the status of women and gays has been established in the DA lore.  Throwing in a bunch of asian NPC's requires either a simple reskinning that would be jolting, given we've seen nothing of them in previous games or literature, or a serious dig into what "being asian" means in this world, where they come from, what is their culture?  How do they fit in with the rest?  If it is taken place in a world based on Europe- which it obviously is it would make no sense.  It would be just political correctness- we're doing this to put it in, but it has no real value, meaning, or significance.

 

Also, please don't put words in my mouth.  I did not say Jade Empire means no other game needs to include asians.  Please do, create game that explore non-european cultures.  I would love to play them, and when I do I won't demand that they have a percentage of white folks in them.   

[Bugsie]

This argument makes no sense. Race and cultural norms are very different issues. Also, the status of women and gays has been established in the DA lore. Throwing in a bunch of asian NPC's requires either a simple reskinning that would be jolting, given we've seen nothing of them in previous games or literature, or a serious dig into what "being asian" means in this world, where they come from, what is their culture? How do they fit in with the rest? If it is taken place in a world based on Europe- which it obviously is it would make no sense. It would be just political correctness- we're doing this to put it in, but it has no real value, meaning, or significance.

 

Also, please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say Jade Empire means no other game needs to include asians. Please do, create game that explore non-european cultures. I would love to play them, and when I do I won't demand that they have a percentage of white folks in them.

 

On one hand your saying yes lets have more diversity, but on the other hand you say including characters of general Asian appearace is political correctness. So you'll have to excuse me if I feel confused by your statements. They don't feel like mutually exclusive statements.  And seeing someone of Asian appearance in the game would suddenly now be 'jolting'?  Seriously?

 

In regard to Jade Empire you did say that 'I don't remember people saying there needed to be more minorities or white folks in Jade Empire.' I'm sorry that's not a good argument for this game. Nor that Dragon Age is medieval European, it's based on that but its still a fantasy game and developers have made it clear that the 'Realism' argument against inclusion is nonsensical.

[JadePrince]

Not all Europeans are white. Nor have all Europeans ever been white. Why do the European-based countries in DA have to be white by default? Why do we need to invent a new fantasy country to bring in NPCs that aren't white? I reeeeally don't think the average gamer would even bat an eye if there were more non-white people populating Thedas in DA:I. Why try to justify it? This game is gonna have a lot more NPCs than the prior games just on the basis of the more-powerful engine. I doubt anyone here would argue that they need to come up with an in-game justification for seeing so many MORE people in general, why need a justification for what those people look like? Just put them in. Black folks, Asian-looking folks, brown skin, kinky hair, etc etc. There is literally no reason to default to white people for every NPC. 

[DaySeeker]

On one hand your saying yes lets have more diversity, but on the other hand you say including characters of general Asian appearace is political correctness. So you'll have to excuse me if I feel confused by your statements. They don't feel like mutually exclusive statements.  And seeing someone of Asian appearance in the game would suddenly now be 'jolting'?  Seriously?

 

In regard to Jade Empire you did say that 'I don't remember people saying there needed to be more minorities or white folks in Jade Empire.' I'm sorry that's not a good argument for this game. Nor that Dragon Age is medieval European, it's based on that but its still a fantasy game and developers have made it clear that the 'Realism' argument against inclusion is nonsensical.

Political correctness is a token gesture; it reduces race and culture to a skin color and careful speech that only glosses over offenses.  Diversity is significant inclusion hat incorporates experience and point of view.  

 

I know my white folks in Jade Empire example is not without flaw, the biggest being that there are plenty of games that put whites in the fore, but putting white folks in that game would be strange in a game that takes place in a Chinese setting.  Dragon Age has create different cultures based on ones that exist- Ferelden= British, Oreleasian= French, Antivan=Italian.  These are the rules of the world.  Putting asian folks in and not giving them a culture would be a token gesture.   If this game tok place in modern day Chicago then I expect to see all kinds of races.  This game doesn't.  If it is going to put them in I'd like it to be done well and purposefully.  If one wants to make their PC Thai- fine with me, go for it, but if suddenly there were blue-skinned people in Thedas players would want to know more about them and expect there was a reason they were there besides the fact the players like blue skin.

[TurretSyndrome]

Well, the Japanese also give us a whole market of ambiguously Asian-ish characters. (I count all anime style characters as vaguely Asian-ish unless it's explicitly stated otherwise)

Though Japanese games do seem to have more representation of explicitly stated Europeans/Americans than vice versa.

 

 

On the contrary, I've never seen a single Japanese anime where they actually try to keep it ambiguous. The characters are Japanese unless stated otherwise. 

 

 

I feel like people get very caught up in the look of different "races", which I understand. But I'd really like to see some more cultural diversity given center stage.

 

I don't know which movie it was but, I remember watching a scene where they got "Indians" to kneel and pray in front of the Taj Mahal because the world was ending, except they didn't realize that Taj Mahal is a tomb of a dead woman, not some holy place. As much as I was amused by that scene, it was really appalling how they lacked the sense to do the bare minimum research before they pulled something like that, even reading the first couple of lines in the Wikipedia could've told them that. This is why I don't ask for the inclusion of my country's culture. It's usually misinterpreted and implemented with a lack of basic knowledge.

[Bugsie]

Okay I understand where you're coming from better now, you're making an argument against tokenism. However the OP was asking to see more NPCs of Asian features and at this late stage in development I don't we can expect any more than a token NPC here or there.  Of course full inclusion would be much prefered and as long as they don't make them strangely exotic (your blue skinned people in your example)  I would be okay with seeing shopkeepers or merchants or other NPCs of Asian appearance just walking around.

 

Edit, yes I fully support the idea of more cultural diversity beyond a few different looking races.  Having said that sometimes people just like to see that they've been thought of as something other than 'the other' because I know I do.

[Devtek]

Okay I understand where you're coming from better now, you're making an argument against tokenism. However the OP was asking to see more NPCs of Asian features and at this late stage in development I don't we can expect any more than a token NPC here or there.  Of course full inclusion would be much prefered and as long as they don't make them strangely exotic (your blue skinned people in your example)  I would be okay with seeing shopkeepers or merchants or other NPCs of Asian appearance just walking around.

 

Edit, yes I fully support the idea of more cultural diversity beyond a few different looking races.  Having said that sometimes people just like to see that they've been thought of as something other than 'the other' because I know I do.

 

The problem is that they have no nation in Thedas where it makes any sense for there to be different looking people.  If we actually knew what was beyond the multiple "impassible barriers" then maybe;  A traveller's caravan; Whatever the natives of Par Vollan look likeetc. As long as its not random, but comes with a plausible reason for them being there then that's fine.  Random people of random heritage would look weird and should come with some reaction by other characters in the game.

[Nefla]

This argument makes no sense.  Race and cultural norms are very different issues.  Also, the status of women and gays has been established in the DA lore.  Throwing in a bunch of asian NPC's requires either a simple reskinning that would be jolting, given we've seen nothing of them in previous games or literature, or a serious dig into what "being asian" means in this world, where they come from, what is their culture?  How do they fit in with the rest?  If it is taken place in a world based on Europe- which it obviously is it would make no sense.  It would be just political correctness- we're doing this to put it in, but it has no real value, meaning, or significance.

More jolting than Anders and Isabella completely changing look and voice actors between games? Or the Qunari, Elf, and Darkspawn redesign? Or the fact that all the female Dwarves in DA2 disappeared? If a kid out there who rarely ever sees anyone that looks like him or her in the media finally sees such characters in a beloved video game and starts to feel like "hey, I matter too", I think that has a lot of value. Who does it negatively affect? Why would anyone be upset if some of the NPCs looked Asian?

 

(Also there were "Asian" presets for Hawke and family, plus possibly the NPCs the OP listed)

[Bugsie]

The problem is that they have no nation in Thedas where it makes any sense for there to be different looking people. If we actually knew what was beyond the multiple "impassible barriers" then maybe; A traveller's caravan; Whatever the natives of Par Vollan look likeetc. As long as its not random, but comes with a plausible reason for them being there then that's fine. Random people of random heritage would look weird and should come with some reaction by other characters in the game.

 

Um...

 

Are you also arguing against tokenism? Because I can totally get behind that as the reason why someone wouldn't want to see more Asian NPCs but I'm not sure you're arguing from that angle... Justifing their non inclusion because they're tied to a particular 'kingdom' we haven't seen yet... You're imparting real world divisions in ethnicity in a fantasy setting... And I thought Bioware were actively avoiding such comparisons.

[javeart]

This argument makes no sense.  Race and cultural norms are very different issues.  Also, the status of women and gays has been established in the DA lore.  Throwing in a bunch of asian NPC's requires either a simple reskinning that would be jolting, given we've seen nothing of them in previous games or literature, or a serious dig into what "being asian" means in this world, where they come from, what is their culture?  How do they fit in with the rest?  If it is taken place in a world based on Europe- which it obviously is it would make no sense.  It would be just political correctness- we're doing this to put it in, but it has no real value, meaning, or significance.

 

Also, please don't put words in my mouth.  I did not say Jade Empire means no other game needs to include asians.  Please do, create game that explore non-european cultures.  I would love to play them, and when I do I won't demand that they have a percentage of white folks in them.   

 

Looks the same to me: making Thedas a littles more "unrealistic" (or simply a little less medieval Europe) if that's what it takes to be more inclusive. And I'd absolutelly support it. And yes, I'd mean to make changes, that was exactly my point, why wasn't it done this way from the start, like it was done with women and non hetersoexual relationships? By the way, I find it hard to believe that if you run into some NPC that look east-asian but that's no different from any other orlesian in any other aspect people would go "oh my god, where did he/she come from?". Like it's already been said, I think most people would not care the least. Are you expecting an elaborate explanation on why is not Vivienne white, in fact?

 

Also, I don't understand why are you equating ethnicity with nationality and nationality with a culturally homogeneous population. But even if we were talking about cultural and not racial diversity, I'd still be ok with it, maybe ti's true that medieval fantasy revolves around european history too much. But I don't see why non-european medieval elements should be put in different games, why couln't t they be mixed... I admit though that this could take a lot of effort, in DA case, for instance, it'd mean big changes. Simply adding more non white characters, in the other hand, seems quite easy.

[DaySeeker]

More jolting than Anders and Isabella completely changing look and voice actors between games? Or the Qunari, Elf, and Darkspawn redesign? Or the fact that all the female Dwarves in DA2 disappeared? If a kid out there who rarely ever sees anyone that looks like him or her in the media finally sees such characters in a beloved video game and starts to feel like "hey, I matter too", I think that has a lot of value. Who does it negatively affect? Why would anyone be upset if some of the NPCs looked Asian?

 

(Also there were "Asian" presets for Hawke and family, plus possibly the NPCs the OP listed)

 

Yes, more jolting than that.  Those comparisons do not track correctly.  A change in art design and generational upgrades are not the same as adding a new race to a game that has defined races.  I did find the change in Anders jarring- Isabella not so much she she barely existed in DAO.  Female dwarves not appearing didn't bother me since I saw few female surface elves in DAO, and didn't expect many dwarves in Kirkwall anyway.  Add to this my other arguments, which I don't feel the need to repeat, and I think your point is weak.  Not every game needs to have everyone in it.  Representation is nice, and as you stated one can make their PC whatever they like, but throwing in random asians into a world that has been thought out with other sraces and peoples explained and examined would weaken the game. 

[AkiKishi]

Integrity of the setting above all for me. The game is not a reflection of Earth nor is it a reflection of modern values and or population densities.

[Fast Jimmy]

Integrity of the setting above all for me. The game is not a reflection of Earth nor is it a reflection of modern values and or population densities.

And on that note...

http://forum.bioware...jacob-so/page-9

It would help to read some of David Gaider's posts on this topic, as it has come up multiple, MULTIPLE times in the past.

Basically, if there are any Asians in future DA games, they will be explained and work as an introduction of a new people/nation/ethnic group/what have you.

[AkiKishi]

And on that note...

http://forum.bioware...jacob-so/page-9

It would help to read some of David Gaider's posts on this topic, as it has come up multiple, MULTIPLE times in the past.

Basically, if there are any Asians in future DA games, they will be explained and work as an introduction of a new people/nation/ethnic group/what have you.

 

What am I supposed to read ? I don't see how something with space travel can be equated to something set around a time when most people did not leave their home villiages and the travel options in Thedas appear to back that up. 

[ImperatorMortis]

lol this thread

[Fast Jimmy]

What am I supposed to read ? I don't see how something with space travel can be equated to something set around a time when most people did not leave their home villiages and the travel options in Thedas appear to back that up.

You are supposed to read David Gaider's comments (there are two of them in the page I linked), which you clearly did not. David Gaider is the Lead Writer for the Dragon Age series and was one of the primary forces in the entire Thedas world building process. So "space travel" has nothing to do with the conversation outside of the thread title.

[AkiKishi]

You are supposed to read David Gaider's comments (there are two of them in the page I linked), which you clearly did not. David Gaider is the Lead Writer for the Dragon Age series and was one of the primary forces in the entire Thedas world building process. So "space travel" has nothing to do with the conversation outside of the thread title.

 

I started at the begining. I'll get there eventually. I'm sure employees have to say certain things and would sell out to make sales and thus don't hold the integrity of the world as the highest value. 

[Bugsie]

And on that note...

http://forum.bioware...jacob-so/page-9

It would help to read some of David Gaider's posts on this topic, as it has come up multiple, MULTIPLE times in the past.

Basically, if there are any Asians in future DA games, they will be explained and work as an introduction of a new people/nation/ethnic group/what have you.

Ah that's interesting, that's the first time I've heard that despite you saying it's been posted multiple times.  That's a good thing, I guess solves the tokenism issue in a way. But he also said that there was no harm in asking 

[9TailsFox]

At last I can use this. And on topic I don't want to see more different humans, more new races exclusive to DA like Qunari would be nice.

Modifié par BioWareMod01, 08 juin 2014 - 10:07 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I started at the begining. I'll get there eventually. I'm sure employees have to say certain things and would sell out to make sales and thus don't hold the integrity of the world as the highest value.

I assure you, nothing about Gaider's responses indicate he is saying such things to cash in or make a buck. His response was actually somewhat unpopular in the thread I linked.