709 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

I assure you, nothing about Gaider's responses indicate he is saying such things to cash in or make a buck. His response was actually somewhat unpopular in the thread I linked.

 

"What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position".

 

I don't see what that has to do with the integrity of the setting. It's quite the opposite. If that was the case, they should have written the setting that way in the first place. It is a made up place after all even if it does loosely conform to Earth cultures of the middle ages. 

 

Or the could have just set Inquisition in Rivia(?) Orlais it to all intents and purposes France.

[Setiweb]

Can we just cover the globe end to end and get this over with?  Eskimos and penguins.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't see what that has to do with the integrity of the setting. It's quite the opposite. If that was the case, they should have written the setting that way in the first place. It is a made up place after all even if it does loosely conform to Earth cultures of the middle ages.

Or the could have just set Inquisition in Rivia(?) Orlais it to all intents and purposes France.

I was really referring more to this:

"With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking."

You can also find other threads where this topic has come up and where Gaider replied in a similar fashion by just typing "Asian" into the Search bar here. I seem to remember one that plainly asked for Asian in Thedas around this time last year that Gaider weighed in on.

Essentially, Gaider said he would not throw people who appeared as if they were from Asiatic descent into the game without some attempt at addressing why we had not seen people of this appearance before in the story. Whether they be travelers from a distant land or a race we had heard about but not seen yet (such as the Fex), they would be explained in some way, shape or form. And this would hold true for any other real world ethnicities not currently seen in the game setting.

[AkiKishi]

I was really referring more to this:

"With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking."

You can also find other threads where this topic has come up and where Gaider replied in a similar fashion by just typing "Asian" into the Search bar here. I seem to remember one that plainly asked for Asian in Thedas around this time last year that Gaider weighed in on.

Essentially, Gaider said he would not throw people who appeared as if they were from Asiatic decent into the game without some attempt at addressing why we had not seen people of this appearance before in the story. Whether they be travelers from a distant land or a race we had heard about but not seen yet (such as the Fex), they would be explained in some way, shape or form. And this would hold true for any other real world ethnicities not currently seen in the game setting.

 

But that's the problem he's already used the social argument (nothing whatsoever to do with the game) in the case of black characters , but now fallen back on the integrity of the setting argument for asians. 

That gives the impression of a double standard, where as all you have to do is tell people that the setting is above all and only things that belong will make it into the game. That way , when you do decide to make a game in Rivia or somewhere where the majority of the population is not white, you have your bases covered.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm not sure I understand... Rivain does have people with such dark skin as to be equivalent to real life "black" people. If they already exist in the setting, then having them in the future (even as having them as the most common NPC ethnicity in a future game) would still be in line with upholding the integrity of the setting.

If they did the same thing in Orlais, I'd agree that this would be different. But in Rivain, or explained as a large group of people displaced from Rivain (or some other type of explanation) would be in line with keeping the integrity of the setting, from what I would gather...?

[AkiKishi]

I'm not sure I understand... Rivain does have people with such dark skin as to be equivalent to real life "black" people. If they already exist in the setting, then having them in the future (even as having them as the most common NPC ethnicity in a future game) would still be in line with upholding the integrity of the setting.

If they did the same thing in Orlais, I'd agree that this would be different. But in Rivain, or explained as a large group of people displaced from Rivain (or some other type of explanation) would be in line with keeping the integrity of the setting, from what I would gather...?

 

I mean he used a non game reason for including black people , then a game reason for excluding asians and hispanics. If you read the quote the setting is not mentioned at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

I mean he used a non game reason for including black people , then a game reason for excluding asians and hispanics. If you read the quote the setting is not mentioned at all.

Hmmmm. I read it as "we'd like to feature more "black" people in our game and the setting allows us to do that. We'd also like to feature other real life ethnicities, but we would adjust/expand the setting to accomodate this if we ever did."

Again, this may be my own interpretation because of reading multiple responses from him on the subject, not just the one I quoted.

[Black Jimmy]

There is no place in the DA universe where Asian-featured people come from that we know of.

Well, no, there's nowhere on the Thedas continent. Which is upside-down Europe. We don't know if there's any other continents on the Thedas World. 

Aren't the Qunari from another continent? Maybe they got wooped by Thedisian Samurai so fled to Thedas.

I hate it when a country/continent gets named after a world...

[Undead Han]

Assuming the game universe ever gets expanded beyond Thedas, I wouldn't mind seeing a culture based on the Mongols. It would also mesh well with the quasi-medieval setting, since the Mongols expanding into Eastern Europe and the Middle East during the medieval era.

[Hizoku]

The idea is good. But I doubt that Asians could be added easily unless they add new continents to Thedas. Much of it is unexplored and mysterious. May be in the future, we can get Asians.

we now have straight up african looking npc's (vivienne), I'm sure they can make room for some asians..

[Nefla]

Yes, more jolting than that.  Those comparisons do not track correctly.  A change in art design and generational upgrades are not the same as adding a new race to a game that has defined races.  I did find the change in Anders jarring- Isabella not so much she she barely existed in DAO.  Female dwarves not appearing didn't bother me since I saw few female surface elves in DAO, and didn't expect many dwarves in Kirkwall anyway.  Add to this my other arguments, which I don't feel the need to repeat, and I think your point is weak.  Not every game needs to have everyone in it.  Representation is nice, and as you stated one can make their PC whatever they like, but throwing in random asians into a world that has been thought out with other sraces and peoples explained and examined would weaken the game. 

I disagree. Having set characters that we met before radically change is a lot more jarring to me than meeting a new person and not having them look exactly like other people we've met. Maybe there are fewer people who look Asian in Thedas and we just haven't met any yet, or like Isabella who was intended to be black but they couldn't get her right in DA:O (or DA2 imo) maybe certain characters were meant to look Asian (like possibly the ones in the OP) and they couldn't quite get there. I really don't see how it would be a problem for you if a few NPCs have Asian looking features. I'm not suggesting a whole new country or culture here. I don't understand the resistance, how does it hurt you? If the shopkeeper in town A looks like this:

 

Instead of this:

 

How will that ruin your game experience? At least think of someone other than yourself. Even if (for whatever reason) having to have Asian looking people in the game slightly annoys your or "jolts" you, that's really minor compared to the people out there who would be overjoyed at actually being included for once.

[DaySeeker]

I disagree. Having set characters that we met before radically change is a lot more jarring to me than meeting a new person and not having them look exactly like other people we've met. Maybe there are fewer people who look Asian in Thedas and we just haven't met any yet, or like Isabella who was intended to be black but they couldn't get her right in DA:O (or DA2 imo) maybe certain characters were meant to look Asian (like possibly the ones in the OP) and they couldn't quite get there. I really don't see how it would be a problem for you if a few NPCs have Asian looking features. I'm not suggesting a whole new country or culture here. I don't understand the resistance, how does it hurt you? If the shopkeeper in town A looks like this:

 

Instead of this:

 

How will that ruin your game experience? At least think of someone other than yourself. Even if (for whatever reason) having to have Asian looking people in the game slightly annoys your or "jolts" you, that's really minor compared to the people out there who would be overjoyed at actually being included for once.

Please, read my responses, read the other responses, read what David Gaider said.  You are looking to be a victim and you are making anyone who disagrees with you an aggressor.  Read and respond to the points I made instead of just simplifying it to "that dude doesn't like asians."  If you want me to restate my reasons then send me a message and I shall, but it is a waste of space to put them on the same forum I already explained them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't get this "It's based on Medieval Europe so there are no Asians" argument. People realize that people from several asian nations were in Europe during the Renaissance Period(which is what nations like Orlais are based on), right?

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't get this "It's based on Medieval Europe so there are no Asians" argument. People realize that people from several asian nations were in Europe during the Renaissance Period(which is what nations like Orlais are based on), right?

I think the more valid argument is "there are no Asians in the lore of Thedas," which was echoed by David Gaider in a post I linked earlier. It's not that they can't happen, it is just that there would need to be an expansion of the lore if they were.

[Nefla]

Please, read my responses, read the other responses, read what David Gaider said.  You are looking to be a victim and you are making anyone who disagrees with you an aggressor.  Read and respond to the points I made instead of just simplifying it to "that dude doesn't like asians."  If you want me to restate my reasons then send me a message and I shall, but it is a waste of space to put them on the same forum I already explained them.

I have read all of your posts in this thread. I have not read a good reason from you as to why there can't be anyone who looks Asian in this fantasy game. You have stated that you think putting people who look Asian in the game is "tokenism" "too politically correct" and that you think Asians should just have their own separate game Jade Empire 2. You have not responded to any points I've made or answered any questions I've asked.

 

-Maybe Asian looking characters were already attempted and can be achieved better with the new engine (the way no character in DA before Vivienne actually looked black but some were intended to be)

-Thedas is inspired by medieval Europe but isn't medieval Europe it's fantasy and can include anything and everything. Also even real medieval Europe had some travelers and traders from Africa and Asia, I don't see anything weird about assuming such people had descendants that settled there generations ago. After all, the Qunari came from somewhere and neither us nor they know anything about that place anymore.

-Tailoring the looks of a few NPCs to be something other than white affects your game how?

-Through the series we really haven't met that many people, just because we haven't met anyone who looks Asian YET doesn't mean there aren't any, and maybe they are a smaller percentage of the population.

-There have been numerous retcons and redesigns between games and you say this bothers you less than seeing some new characters of a different facial structure.

-The positive effect showing legitimate, not stereotyped characters that look like you (when you almost never get to see it anywhere else) is far greater than the slight annoyance someone else may feel. (for IMO unfathomable reasons)

-If no one ever takes steps to include people other than straight white guys (and occasionally straight white women) then that's all there will ever be. It may feel awkward at first to people who are set in their ways but sometimes change is good and it will improve us in the long run. White people are not the majority of Earth's population, why are they the majority portrayed in TV, video games, movies, music, books, etc..?

 

I'm a straight white woman (so no I'm not trying to "make myself a victim") and you know how many tv shows, movies, and books I've been able to see someone like me as not only a legitimate character, but the protagonist? Countless. Games, far less so but still an ok number. You know how many books, tv shows, movies, and videogames my Filipina friend has seen a character like herself in? None. I was talking to her about SR4 and telling her how it was funny and the CC was really good and how she could make a character that looks just like herself if she wanted (I made one of me and showed it to her) she didn't believe me and said "you can't be Asian in video games." Is 2 seconds of "huh, that's different" on your part really so awful and so much more important than people like my friend being treated like they exist?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think the more valid argument is "there are no Asians in the lore of Thedas," which was echoed by David Gaider in a post I linked earlier. It's not that they can't happen, it is just that there would need to be an expansion of the lore if they were.

"We are foreigners from a faraway land." 

 

There, solved it in 7 words. 

[Fast Jimmy]

"We are foreigners from a faraway land." 
 
There, solved it in 7 words. 

That would be acceptable.

[DaySeeker]

You got some of my points.  I did not say asians should only be in Jade Empire.  I did say anyone can make their protagonist whatever they like.  I also said, as it seems the lead writer did, that including asian folks in the game deserves explanation and attention.  If asians are introduced let them be introduced and given the same eye to detail as other races and nations. Other cultures are obviously represented and their culture explored. You can read pages on Fereldens and Orleasians (the British and French).  I would love games that use other cultures and different time periods besides medieval Europe.  

Even fictional world have set boundaries, so far we have not seen asians or halflings or fairies or imps, or sentient minotaurs or cat people.  I am sure there are large groups of people who would love to see any of them.  Not every game can include every person.  Dragon Age Inquisition and Bioware are not responsible  for meeting every consumer's whim, and when including content does so because they think it will improve the game and fit into their world.  It is obvious they give it a great deal of thought and discussion.  There are many cultures I already want to know more about, I'm not interested in meeting a new one until I learn more about the ones already presented.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Even fictional world have set boundaries, so far we have not seen asians or halflings or fairies or imps, or sentient minotaurs or cat people.  I am sure there are large groups of people who would love to see any of them.  Not every game can include every person.  Dragon Age Inquisition and Bioware are not responsible  for meeting every consumer's whim, and when including content does so because they think it will improve the game and fit into their world.  It is obvious they give it a great deal of thought and discussion.  There are many cultures I already want to know more about, I'm not interested in meeting a new one until I learn more about the ones already presented.

By halflings, do you mean hobbits or people who are half-elf or half-dwarf? Because we have the latter. 

Fairies we have one in the form of The Lady of the Forest, who is a Dryad. 

Imps could be argued as covered by Ghasts. 

Minotaurs could be argued as being covered by Qunari.

The Fex are believed to be cat people by several people.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That would be acceptable.

Exactly. And leaves a door for when the nation needs to be introduced if Bioware feels a need. 

[DaySeeker]

By halflings, do you mean hobbits or people who are half-elf or half-dwarf? Because we have the latter. 

Fairies we have one in the form of The Lady of the Forest, who is a Dryad. 

Imps could be argued as covered by Ghasts. 

Minotaurs could be argued as being covered by Qunari.

The Fex are believed to be cat people by several people.

I want to play as all of them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I want to play as all of them.

Well, with the half-breeds you can't really tell so headcanon works. 

I'd love to be able to play as a Dryad or other Fae. 

Ghasts are a monster type so they won't be available.

Qunari we will be able to be in Inquisition.

And we know nothing concrete of the Fex. 

[Bugsie]

As I see the arguments boil down in this thread.

OP’s statement ‘I’d like to see more Asian faces in DA, kthnxbai.’

1. Pro – yes that be nice kthnxbai
2. Pro – yes – extended argument about their presence of real world diversity reflected in games can’t be a bad thing and its nice for people to be able to see themselves reflected in the game
3. Anti - no cos Thedas is medieval it would be dumb
4. Anti - no because it’s tokenism and if they are to be included then I would rather they be fully formed group from a region with its own cultural identity perhaps even attached to real world diversity within the many Asian cultures
5. Anti- because they haven’t fully explained the races they have and they’re worth exploring before we move on to a new one.

The only argument I find a little silly is 3 because I’m pretty sure there were travellers from the east during those times as there were travellers from the west in places like India and China.

 

David Gaider through his statements has said pretty much 4 – and as much as I’ve classified it as an ‘anti’ statement it is actually one that’s fairly pro diversity, just not for this current game (which is due out in October remember!!)  We may in a future DA instalment see such faces emerge.

 

I still maintain I wouldn’t blink though if there were more NPC’s of Asian appearance.  If they want to paint them as coming from a distant land as merchants or travellers, in order to make their appearance ‘believable within the lore’ for themselves as world builders or for those who would find it jarring unless explained, I guess I’d be okay with that.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Which asain are we talking about here? Are we talking east asian, or south asain, or northern asian, or western asian? Or mixed region asain, such as south-east asia or north-western asia?

 

Ideally, I would like any sort of allegory to asia and asians to get a similar treatment as rivianians, and get their own nation and culture to call their own, that give them more depth then could be summed up in a single sentence, like "The asians have strange shaped eyes and off color skin", or "Elves are short and excel at poverty."