485 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Pretty much.

 

I'd hardly call forcing all of Thedas to submit to the Qun a great way of ending conflict between humans and Qunari.

 

It ends the conflict. That's pretty good. Or would you rather everyone stopped fighting and adopts the Chant of Light? I'd rather the Qunari be in control than the Chantry.

[Iakus]

It ends the conflict. That's pretty good. Or would you rather everyone stopped fighting and adopts the Chant of Light? I'd rather the Qunari be in control than the Chantry.

 

Depends on which side you're on I guess.

 

But my assumption here is that you've spent three games fighting against the oxmen

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Depends on which side you're on I guess.

 

But my assumption here is that you've spent three games fighting against the oxmen

 

I never really knew you fought against the Qunari. In DA:O, there weren't very many Qunari in the game, and Sten, the only window into their society, was on your side. Everyone else was either a mercenary, a bandit, or a rebel (like that Qunari merchant in Awakening). In DA:2, it seemed to me that you were just trying to stop a violent confrontation with them. 

 

You know what they say about assumptions...

[Iakus]

I never really knew you fought against the Qunari. In DA:O, there weren't very many Qunari in the game, and Sten, the only window into their society, was on your side. Everyone else was either a mercenary, a bandit, or a rebel (like that Qunari merchant in Awakening). In DA:2, it seemed to me that you were just trying to stop a violent confrontation with them. 

 

You know what they say about assumptions...

 

"You make an a$$ of you and umption"

 

But the reason I chose the Qun is because it's a highly regimented system where everyone has a "role" in a greter purpose  and if you weren't part of that purpose, you were bas, a "thing".  Something to be converted, enslaved, or destroyed.

 

Which sounds kinda like the Reapers

[MassivelyEffective0730]

"You make an a$$ of you and umption"

 

But the reason I chose the Qun is because it's a highly regimented system where everyone has a "role" in a greter purpose  and if you weren't part of that purpose, you were bas, a "thing".  Something to be converted, enslaved, or destroyed.

 

Which sounds kinda like the Reapers

 

That doesn't sound anything like the Reapers. And I completely agree with the Qun. Granted, I'd be a bit more liberal with it (allow people to choose their path and to allow them to change if they demonstrate aptitude in an area where their talents might be better met.)

[Daemul]

I find this whole ethics in synthesis debate f'ing pointless. We're not killing anything, we're adding stuff to things.

 

I've seen people here who mindlessly kill the Rachni Queen on just about every playthrough, but then whine about synthesis being unethical. You gotta be kidding me. Killing an entire species is fine, but changing others OH MY GODDDDD

 

Agreed. I always chuckle to myself whenever someone claims they can't pick Synthesis because it's playing God. I'm like, "What? You've been playing God the entire series and now all of a sudden, right at the end, playing God is wrong? lol, GTFO with that BS."

 

I can't take some people seriously any more. 

[CronoDragoon]

CronoDragon, as I see it, the Amish example implies that refusal of a specific technology is refusal of all further improvements. My examples are meant to prove you can refuse a specific form of technology, without refusing technology overall, or even other forms of that technology.

 
That wasn't the intent of the example, but I see how you could think that. Rather, it was to see the reaction from society to the rejection of technology. In the Amish example, it's all technology. But I can give other less extreme examples. However, it's more useful to examine rejection of technology that is, for all intents and purposes, a massive change that, if accepted, would constitute a radical readjustment on the part of a population, rather than fringe technology like a new Windows OS. There are several reasons for this, one being that Synthesis is an all-or-nothing deal. There's no other Synthesis to which people can turn, whereas rejection of Windows 8 just means you use Windows 7. Accordingly, the best example I can think of is the internet. Rejection of the internet makes you, in a society where modern technology is both accepted and expected, an outlier, and a minority. Now imagine if the internet were free, like Synthesis. How many wouldn't choose to accept it, despite drawbacks such as government spying and identity theft? The simplest reason for this is that the forces that drive innovation in society would leave them behind and they would be at a disadvantage living their lives going forward - whether they like it or not. Once obtained, their children would take the internet for granted, warts and all.
 

This is a well put argument, but you will notice that it also brings a drawback with it; part of their enhanced comprehension of organics can be traced to the fact that apparently they can now feel. If so, then, as we know, that brings to the table a degree of potential synthetic irrationality, or at least unpredictability that didn’t existed before.

 
True, although it's not given that losing rationality and gaining irrationality will lead to more conflict. After all, the geth just spend centuries shooting down any diplomatic envoys that came close, and the Reapers have been killing trillions for millions of years.
 

I honestly don’t buy it. As far as I know there is no correlation between having a synthetic hearth and the inability to fear an AI.

 
It isn't that the synthetic implants will remove the capability of organics to feel fear, but rather that what the Catalyst sees as the cause for such fear will be removed: the fear that synthetics will surpass organics and thus rule the universe. Now, I have my own doubts that this is why events such as the Morning War happen, or that synthetic/organic will stop because of it, but even if it doesn't function for the purpose it was created, it still contains benefits in its own right.

Further, Shepard may have a few implants but those are, if we take ME2 to be correct, a means to replace damage organs, not of enhancing her abilities. (They claimed they wanted to bring her as close as she was originally, and I think that there is even a bit that claims that her abilities were not enhanced, somewhere, I may be wrong). This makes the use of comparable implants redundant in healthy individuals at best, and not something they would be trilled about.

 
That was how Shepard's implants began, but read the descriptions of the upgrades he receives during the course of ME2. Read about the Heavy Bone Weave. Shepard's bones are nigh unbreakable now. And so forth. Hell, Shepard survives a peripheral blast from a Reaper laser at the end of ME3.
 

So you argue that they all felt a sudden unexplainable urge to be elsewhere? I suppose it was the same as before when they felt a sudden unexplained urge to start reaping.

 
That's exactly what I think.
 

Ask yourself; how many in the galaxy would ask such questions?

 
Honestly? I don't believe very many. The galaxy won't have time to sit and contemplate the meaning of Synthesis. They will have to rebuild, find family members, relocate. By the time they might actually get done surviving the post-war wasteland, the shock of Synthesis may well have worn off. It's incredible what humans can get used to, given time. And who knows, if Synthesis actually assists in the post-war effort? That might be taken as further evidence that was it initiated by the good guys, besides the fact that it stopped the war.
 

Here’s the thing; your argument requires that everyone in the galaxy believes nearly the same thing and adopts the same attitude towards synthesis, (save for exceptions like the weird lady in the corner named Cassandra, but no one listens to her anyway).

 
Eh, I'd actually say that my argument requires the people in charge along with a large chunk of the general populace to accept Synthesis.
 

I, on the other end, assume that people being people, that a good number of them wouldn’t agree with the party line and would search for different answers, others would put different weights to the potential costs and benefits of synthesis that you put, other still would simply not forget what the Reapers did and for some reason may suspect of them being related to synthesis,(less unthinkable that you like to believe), others would not trust synthesis without knowing exactly how it works and if it is safe, others would find the very idea of synthesis revolting, and many other possible reasons.

 
You have a higher opinion of the masses' interest in metaphysical questions and striking out on their own path to answers than I do. Most will, as I said, be interested in more practical, concrete concerns immediately following the war. And even if they don't, most people are sheep. I don't feel bad at all for making the weak will of the individual in a society a reason for accepting Synthesis, since I'm not making a moral argument.

[CronoDragoon]

Agreed. I always chuckle to myself whenever someone claims they can't pick Synthesis because it's playing God. I'm like, "What? You've been playing God the entire series and now all of a sudden, right at the end, playing God is wrong? lol, GTFO with that BS."

Pretty much, but beyond that, the galaxy has already given me implicit and explicit permission to end the war in the least disruptive manner. ANY choice I make at the Crucible is "playing God." And guess what? Refusing is also playing God. This is a situation where any choice determines the fate of the galaxy.

[Reorte]

It ends the conflict. That's pretty good. Or would you rather everyone stopped fighting and adopts the Chant of Light? I'd rather the Qunari be in control than the Chantry.

Is it pretty good? Forced something on every single living being in the entire galaxy, presumably even those not remotely involved (otherwise it couldn't even claim to achieve what it claims to achieve), with heaven knows what long-term consequences. In the grand scheme of things killing off a handful of races every 50000 years could even be viewed as a less bad outcome.

[CronoDragoon]

Is it pretty good? Forced something on every single living being in the entire galaxy, presumably even those not remotely involved (otherwise it couldn't even claim to achieve what it claims to achieve), with heaven knows what long-term consequences. In the grand scheme of things killing off a handful of races every 50000 years could even be viewed as a less bad outcome.

Then those (crazy) people can feel free to Refuse.

[Farangbaa]

Agreed. I always chuckle to myself whenever someone claims they can't pick Synthesis because it's playing God. I'm like, "What? You've been playing God the entire series and now all of a sudden, right at the end, playing God is wrong? lol, GTFO with that BS."

 

I can't take some people seriously any more. 

 

These people I throw on the same pile as the people who think putting someone off life support is playing God, but putting them on life support isn't.

[KaiserShep]

I couldn't care less about playing god myself. I just don't wanna die or turn the MEU into the jolly green hippie love-in.

[Iakus]

Then those (crazy) people can feel free to Refuse.

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

[Hadeedak]

Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask yourself, "Does honor matter?" The silence is your answer.

[KaiserShep]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

I'd rather submit to sacrificing a species than causing everyone to go extinct.

[SporkFu]

Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask yourself, "Does honor matter?" The silence is your answer.

Boom. Javik wins. 

[wolfhowwl]

Control master race reporting in.

[von uber]

Post-synthesis date night - Miri and Husky take a few minutes to chat about their relationship during a mission.

 

[SwobyJ]

Javik's lack of honor sure didn't do him any favors. He had to rely on Shepard (a person who CAN be RPed to have honor) and Liara (who at the very least tries to be honorable) to save his sorry ass.

 

So yes, I'd say honor matters. If you want it to. Mass Effect is cool like that.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Post-synthesis date night - Miri and Husky take a few minutes to chat about their relationship during a mission.

 

 

Wrong thread I think....

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Javik's lack of honor sure didn't do him any favors. He had to rely on Shepard (a person who CAN be RPed to have honor) and Liara (who at the very least tries to be honorable) to save his sorry ass.

 

So yes, I'd say honor matters. If you want it to. Mass Effect is cool like that.

 

He wasn't really relying on anyone. This is a terribly fallacious argument. Shepard can have honor. Liara tries too. But honor doesn't play into reviving him on Eden Prime. That was more research and chance. Honor had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

I'd say honor objectively doesn't matter. 

[SwobyJ]

At the very least, in the Mass Effect Shepard Trilogy, honor does not objectively matter. It is optional. What matters is getting your job done, through as you said, research and chance (and more).

 

I don't think the franchise will stay that way in terms of storytelling, but for the trilogy, it is hard to say otherwise. Shepard doesn't need to have a lick of honor in order to get pretty much all (or at least all major) goals completed.

 

 

So for Javik I meant two things:

1)For specific RP profiles, honor definitely did matter. It can encourage Shepard to even give Javik a chance. I didn't say anything about 'objectively' here. For your Shepard, it doesn't need to be his motivation at all.

2)Javik speaks of honor mattering. Well actually, if the Prothians got together with more than a domination, but with an honorable hand held out to each other and other species, they could have been united enough to complete the Crucible.

But that's just a hypothetical, so I can't really support it with more than that. One can even argue the opposite. Whatevs.

[von uber]

Wrong thread I think....

Nah people were talking about synthesis. This is quite a good illustration of it

Any regards replayability, the mass effect trilogy has a decent amount I think. Of course the amount of carry over between games is not overly high but there are some good key decisions to make that affect the game if not the ending.

[CronoDragoon]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

 

Yes. Absolutely. Let's put it this way hypothetically: if Saren had been right about the Reapers being unbeatable, and if the Reapers' deal to spare anyone who submitted was real, I would have joined up with Saren.

 

Of course, it wasn't certain and there was no chance the Reapers would spare us, so there.

[themikefest]

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

No.

 

I have no use for that slaverly crap. Others might like it, but I don't. I rather die or force them to kill me.