248 réponses à ce sujet

[BubbleDncr]

I voted for Gaspard.

 

I voted no Briala/the elves because of Briala. If it was just "the elves," that's who I would want to rule.

 

I just am not a fan of Briala. Can't really express why.

[klebaart]

You can if you are strong orlesian game follow orlesian rule but every other rule can't challange primary "might makes right". Sorry but i don't see how she changed orlesians she didn't we have old corrupted system as it was before she only promoted that she is in fact weak.She may big talk about her reforms but in fact 20 year and she did nothing well nothing revelant.Only thing i would argue is anti-slavery move but only time will be tell if she put only anti-slavery rule or actually stopped slavery i m going with first.Celene never will be able pull any revelant reform and even if she pulls with that corruption it will be "no blood magic in tevinter".Everything Celene did was for power or to please her lover nothing more.

It is never explained exactly what Celene did for Orlais but it is clearly said, several times, that Orlais situation regarding wealth, education and global power in Thedas have increased since the beginning of her reign so you can't objectivly say she did nothing. It's undeniable. Moreover, whether her action toward the well-being of the elves were motivated by her relationship with Briala doesn't matter when we're judging her ability to rule Orlais. They've been lovers for 20 years, and they knew each other even before, so this relationship defines Celene as much (or even more) than her aristocratic education. I believe that she has learnt from Briala. She does not help elves only to please her, but because the woman she loves made her understand that the elves' cause is worth advocating.

But even if she helps them only to keep Briala, it doesn't change the fact that she made elves lives better, and that's what a lot of people seem forget in my opinion: rulers must not be judge for their opinions or motives but for the actual changes they did in their country, and once again, it has been stated several times that her reign was good for Orlais. You are free to loathe how and why she's acting but you can't judge her reign based on that. 

 

Hugebull I agree with you concerning Gaspard since he's constantly twisting the chevalier code to fit his ambitions (and his own code to a certain extent)but concerning Celene, like I said before, I think that her enjoying playing the Game is irrelevant to her abilities as an empress. No ruler or leader is perfect. It always comes down to choosing the lesser evil and IMO it has been Celene so far.

 

A perfect emperor I think would combine Gaspard's strength and code of honor, and Celene's diplomacy and progressiveness. 

[BioFan (Official)]

Results are in!



 

 

I'll repost them in a little while and see if things have changed. 


Celene is in the lead!

 

Briala and the elves are hanging in there. 

Gaspard is trailing behind. 

[Former_Fiend]

I'd like to restate my objection that there isn't a "Don't care, all the options are terrible" option in this poll.

[ladyofpayne]

Amasing results! 2 place is for nation who had lost theit own country. Ba-ha-ha!

[TheKomandorShepard]

It is never explained exactly what Celene did for Orlais but it is clearly said, several times, that Orlais situation regarding wealth, education and global power in Thedas have increased since the beginning of her reign so you can't objectivly say she did nothing. It's undeniable. Moreover, whether her action toward the well-being of the elves were motivated by her relationship with Briala doesn't matter when we're judging her ability to rule Orlais. They've been lovers for 20 years, and they knew each other even before, so this relationship defines Celene as much (or even more) than her aristocratic education. I believe that she has learnt from Briala. She does not help elves only to please her, but because the woman she loves made her understand that the elves' cause is worth advocating.

But even if she helps them only to keep Briala, it doesn't change the fact that she made elves lives better, and that's what a lot of people seem forget in my opinion: rulers must not be judge for their opinions or motives but for the actual changes they did in their country, and once again, it has been stated several times that her reign was good for Orlais. You are free to loathe how and why she's acting but you can't judge her reign based on that. 

 

Hugebull I agree with you concerning Gaspard since he's constantly twisting the chevalier code to fit his ambitions (and his own code to a certain extent)but concerning Celene, like I said before, I think that her enjoying playing the Game is irrelevant to her abilities as an empress. No ruler or leader is perfect. It always comes down to choosing the lesser evil and IMO it has been Celene so far.

 

A perfect emperor I think would combine Gaspard's strength and code of honor, and Celene's diplomacy and progressiveness. 

Well they say that abomnations are rare and yet we encountered so many that it is hardly rare. I belive in truth in practice orlais is corrupted hive as it was before.In fact orlais used hold much more power than now so it isn't truth that she made it powerful her plan was consume ferelden counting they will agree.In fact all she did was easy all she needed is other nobles approval however if they didn't gave it to her she was to weak to achieve.Celene may speak pretty but she proved that in the end of the day she always choose power and her desires over her ideals.I doubt that she cares about elves she was very eager to chop them 1 minute after nobles wanted her to chop them hardly sign of concern in fact she killed more elves during book than she helped during her 20 years of rule.In the end of the even if her ideals are real she always will throw them for power and her only source of power are nobles and she is too weak to enforce something on them in fact she will have bend to their will.  

 

Still i hope for third (fourth?) option to take own side and make mess in orlais.

[Isaidlunch]

Woo Celene! You go girl!

 

I'm worried that they'll have her pull an Anora on us, probably something much worse, just to make Gaspard look more attractive as an option. Her trustworthiness as an ally is the only thing that would make me second guess choosing her.

[Mistic]

I really couldn't agree more with klebarrt. I do not understand Gaspard's motivation at all. Orlais has never been stronger. His trethchery only serves to weaken the country and expose it to the Imperium and "Dog lords" he despises so. And I never got why it was just handwaved that he betrays his nation, but then preaches about honor. "Oh look at me, I'm not wearing my coat of arms because I'm commiting treason, but that just makes me that much more honorable." I was like WTF. Gaspard is selfish and power-hungry and only cares for his personal glory, while Celene actually seems to care about her subjects and the legacy she leaves behind. Her methods are no different than any other noble's in Orlais, but she uses her power to do good.

 

Although I agree that nobody pays enough attention to Gaspard's betrayal, I can see where he comes from.

 

Orlais has never been stronger? Sorry, but Orlais has never been weaker, at least from a purely militaristic point of view. I'm not talking about Drakon's achievements, because he was a genius (and probably a PC in the past, if Bioware dares to make a prequel), but it's true that Orlais has lost a lot in the past decades.

 

The Fereldan occupation? A disaster. The last war against Nevarra? A defeat that meant the loss of territory. Even Kirkwall, a lone city in the Free Marches, wanted to screw with the Orlesians until the Divine encouraged the Templars to depose the Viscount. If you believe in the goodness of imperialism like Gaspard does, Celene's every action is destroying the Empire.

 

"Diplomacy to deal with the dog lords of Ferelden? Why, to be the laughing stock of Nevarrans and Tevinters? You need to prove your power! Ah, but no, the Empress is too busy protecting the arts and the sciences instead of protecting the army, the true basis of Orlesian power. And now that mages and templars are about to start killing each other, the Empress wants to trust the Divine in managing that powder-keg peacefully? The same Divine that let Kirkwall's situation deteriorate to the point a terrorist blew up the Chantry? Nope, sorry, Orlais can't stay idle when enemies from inside and outside want to weaken us!"

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed. Orlais is arguably in a cultural renaissance, but in many terms it's in a decline in absolute and relative terms. Celene doesn't mind- Gaspard does. Considering that part of Celene's passivity is allowing rogue armies to start forming and marching, he rather has a point.

[Hugebull]

klebaart, Celene had the option to get the best of two worlds when Gaspard proposed. But she refused. 

[Helios969]

Sounds like a match made in heaven...are they single? Can we marry them? They sound perfect for one another.

[DiscoGhost]

Celene keeping it going is still interesting. a master cevelier military taking over would be interesting. the elves taking over would be VERY interesting.

 

imo. god baby has possessed morrigan, will kill celene to take her place, taking over the largest nation, then taking over thedas. 

[wcholcombe]

Orlais is the cultural capitol of The dad under Celene. She greatly expanded the University of Orlais and has supported the arts and sciences.

As for Gaspard, one of the promises he made to other nobles for their support was that he would role back Celenes reforms regarding elves and how the noble children are taught about the at the university. Also she enabled elves to sale goods and operate in the market in the merchant quarter which they had never been allowed to do previously. Yes Celene has concentrated more on culture and education then military expansion but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[Mistic]

Orlais is the cultural capitol of The dad under Celene. She greatly expanded the University of Orlais and has supported the arts and sciences.

As for Gaspard, one of the promises he made to other nobles for their support was that he would role back Celenes reforms regarding elves and how the noble children are taught about the at the university. Also she enabled elves to sale goods and operate in the market in the merchant quarter which they had never been allowed to do previously. Yes Celene has concentrated more on culture and education then military expansion but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

I suppose it's a matter of 'hard power' versus 'soft power'. Neither is wrong per se, but it's clear that Gaspard thinks that only hard power matters. However, the setting provides several examples of successful soft power. The Chantry is the first one that comes to mind, but there are other examples that Orlais could follow.

 

Let's take Tevinter. One of the most reviled countries in Thedas. Yet even they have soft power. Do you want to know something about magic? Then your best option is to go to Tevinter. And it's not just that. Such is their reach in soft power terms that the tool Celene used to attack Chancelier Morrac at the beginning of TME was Vyranion's Theorem. People have read the scene as part of Celene's pro-elven agenda (force the Chancelier to accept an elven student), but there's also an international fight behind it: Tevinter scholars are more advanced in mathematical knowledge and the university's opposition to accept promising students just because they're elves is a setback.

 

Of course, I doubt Gaspard would appreciate Celene's efforts to have better scholars than other countries instead of better soldiers.

[CENIC]

My ideal would be Celene and Briala working together, but on equal standing. A return to the status quo would be better than Gaspard, but Briala needs more agency in her working relationship (and personal relationship, IMO) with Celene if conditions for elves are going to improve.

[Aimi]

I'd like to restate my objection that there isn't a "Don't care, all the options are terrible" option in this poll.

(h/t David Rappoccio at KSK) 
 

Indeed. Orlais is arguably in a cultural renaissance, but in many terms it's in a decline in absolute and relative terms.

aaaaaaa there are no statistical or semi-objective bases for comparison here

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Sounds like a match made in heaven...are they single? Can we marry them? They sound perfect for one another.

They are and we can't. Gespard tried.

 

He actually proposed to her in The Masked Empire as a final attempt to achieve his goals without resorting to violence/outright rebellion. Celene turned him down.  And with events having taken the turns they have now, I can't see a unifying marriage on the table ever again. 

[wcholcombe]

They are and we can't. Gespard tried.

 

He actually proposed to her in The Masked Empire as a final attempt to achieve his goals without resorting to violence/outright rebellion. Celene turned him down.  And with events having taken the turns they have now, I can't see a unifying marriage on the table ever again. 

Actually considering

Spoiler

the Civil War has now stagnated to the point that they are having a peace conference at the Winter Palace....I wouldn't necessarily rule out a marriage. Unless somehow Orlais has some screwed up system of negotiated peace where one side agrees to let themselves be executed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Woo Celene! You go girl!

 

I'm worried that they'll have her pull an Anora on us, probably something much worse, just to make Gaspard look more attractive as an option. Her trustworthiness as an ally is the only thing that would make me second guess choosing her.

I had no problems with Anora, so fine with me.

[Mistic]

aaaaaaa there are no statistical or semi-objective bases for comparison here

 

Well, maybe you can count territory and war success? Unless the lore has surprising material hidden, Orlais is at its smallest extension since Drakon died.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Actually considering

Spoiler

the Civil War has now stagnated to the point that they are having a peace conference at the Winter Palace....I wouldn't necessarily rule out a marriage. Unless somehow Orlais has some screwed up system of negotiated peace where one side agrees to let themselves be executed.

But neither Gespard nor Celene could enter into a marriage and hope to survive 6 months. Back when Gespard proposed they were rivals and opponents, but blood's been shed now. They have open and serious animosity towards each other. I can't see either of them agreeing to a marriage to each other. If they had heirs to marry together, it'd be a different thing. But the two of them, themselves? 

[wcholcombe]

Well, a couple of things.  1) Historical real world precedent includes two rivals for the throne coming to terms and marrying.  It isn't often but it occurs. 2) This war has cost both of them a great deal.  Friendships, loyalties, Gaspard's fighting ability, deaths of loyal soldiers, Michel, these things tend to take their toll and after a civil war has become stagnated the idea of peace through marriage will be far more appealing to both sides then it was in the beginning.  Celene truly gained nothing by marrying Gaspard prior to the war and arguably would could have lost a great deal.  Yes blood has now been shed, but blood had been shed previously by their families.  Celene and Gaspards families have been killing each other in the game for generations, the very idea of the game would support reconciliation and marriage now if there can be a true benefit found for both sides.

 

I am not saying it would be easy, but with the way politics work in Orlais, I can't rule it out of the question.  They are both truly committed to doing what they feel is best for Orlais, they just both have entirely different view points on what exactly that is.

[Aimi]

Well, maybe you can count territory and war success? Unless the lore has surprising material hidden, Orlais is at its smallest extension since Drakon died.

That seems improbable, since Drakon doesn't appear to have controlled the Dales. But it's also kind of still not objective. There's no good correlation between "how much of a map is in Country X's color" and things like civil prosperity, wealth distribution, the size of the economy, individual or corporate rights, etc.

Withdrawing from territory that has never been economically productive and which was in a constant state of rebellion isn't necessarily a Bad Thing, and can often be a very Good Thing, depending on the observer. For example, modern Germany is very much smaller than the Kaiserreich was, but I frankly would rather live in modern Germany than in Bismarck's Germany for a great number of reasons (not least of which is the fact that my existence would make me a criminal). I would not categorize Germany as being in 'decline' merely because the eastern border is at the Oder-Neiße Line instead of the Memel.

Similarly, one could make the argument that Orlesian control of, say, Ferelden was a largely pointless endeavor that did nothing to improve the country's security, prestige, or international position, while inflicting constant manpower and fiscal attrition. One could also make the argument that the occupation of Ferelden was indicative of a moral decline in Orlais. In such a circumstance, a smaller Orlais would not really be in 'decline'.

There is often disagreement in the real world about whether a country is in 'decline' or not, and that is with a fantastic amount of information at our fingertips. We lack such information about Orlais. To then concede that the country is in some form of decline seems to me to be accepting Gaspard's contention, and the whole rationale for his revolt, at face value.

[Dean_the_Young]

aaaaaaa there are no statistical or semi-objective bases for comparison here

 

I was referring to territory, actually. Unless I'm mistaken, Orlais has lost valuable territory in the not-so distant past, while other countries have risen vis-a-vis them. Neverran is one, iirc, though Ferelden is another.

 

You bring up a good argument about what decline, means, though, so I'll admit it's not an indisputable measure.

[Mistic]

That seems improbable, since Drakon doesn't appear to have controlled the Dales. But it's also kind of still not objective. There's no good correlation between "how much of a map is in Country X's color" and things like civil prosperity, wealth distribution, the size of the economy, individual or corporate rights, etc.

 

Don't forget that Drakon's Empire included the Anderfels, Nevarra and several lands in the Free Marches. Just a look at the map convinces me that it's at least more than what the current Orlesian Empire has. Also, since in the near past Orlais had Ferelden and territories that now belong to Nevarra, there's at least a decline in territory in the past decades. Dean has said that was the issue, and Gaspard is right in that regard.

 

Withdrawing from territory that has never been economically productive and which was in a constant state of rebellion isn't necessarily a Bad Thing, and can often be a very Good Thing, depending on the observer. For example, modern Germany is very much smaller than the Kaiserreich was, but I frankly would rather live in modern Germany than in Bismarck's Germany for a great number of reasons (not least of which is the fact that my existence would make me a criminal). I would not categorize Germany as being in 'decline' merely because the eastern border is at the Oder-Neiße Line instead of the Memel.

 

Depending on how you see it. I agree with you. However, those who prefer a militaristic point of view could say with all the reason in the world that Germany is weaker (speaking about the military) than ever since the unification. Its old rivals, France and the United Kingdom, have literally the power to blow up the German cities in atomic dust if they wished so while Germany couldn't do anything to stop it. For old school imperialism, that's unconceivable.

 

Of course, international rules have changed and soft power is more valued than in the past. Life in prosperity is better than life in perpetual war, and I'd really like to know more about current Orlesian society and economy. For all we know, Orlais may be experiencing an economic boom that would allow the country to expand its influence without declaring war. Or not.

 

Gaspard's position is understandable from a militaristic and imperialist mindset. Since he's been a warmonger general for a lot of time, it's to be expected.