248 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Or, y'know, the real world.

 

Well, yeah, that to. But I try not to ruin people's image of reality that directly.

[Aimi]

Well, yeah, that to. But I try not to ruin people's image of reality that directly.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I'm going to side with Briala.

 

Celene is just political snake and the last thing in the world Thedas needs is a warmonger like Gaspard.

 

We've already had these two type of people in charge of Orlais and it hasn't worked out well.

 

If nothing else at least Briala will free the elven slaves and if nothing else that's automatically better than the other two.

[efd731]

I'm going to side with Briala.

Celene is just political snake and the last thing in the world Thedas needs is a warmonger like Gaspard.

We've already had these two type of people in charge of Orlais and it hasn't worked out well.

If nothing else at least Briala will free the elven slaves and if nothing else that's automatically better than the other two.

how? If you're viewing thedas through contemporary glasses then sure. But do so free elves benifit anyone besides the elves? How do the elves keep those benifits? How does Orlais function without a massive lower class? (Even if you say Orlais be damned, if their power structures are disrupted fereldan and Nevarra will divy Orlais up and the elves will in all likelihood be no better off.

[Divine Justinia V]

Celene not only is the most qualified but there's a reason she got that throne @ 16.

[Former_Fiend]

Celene not only is the most qualified but there's a reason she got that throne @ 16.

 

Her willingness to callously murder her own loyal servants?

[Mister Gusty]

 

Celene not only is the most qualified but there's a reason she got that throne @ 16.

 

Yeah Lady Mantillon who was grooming her for the throne decided that she was ready and took out the only obstacle remaining for Celene, Emperor Florian. Don't see how that makes Celene more qualified to rule, as the throne was more or less handed to her on a silver platter.

 

Not to say she didn't turn out to be a pretty good empress, but she certainly wouldn't have gotten anywhere if not for Lady Mantillon and her training.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

how? If you're viewing thedas through contemporary glasses then sure. But do so free elves benifit anyone besides the elves? How do the elves keep those benifits? How does Orlais function without a massive lower class? (Even if you say Orlais be damned, if their power structures are disrupted fereldan and Nevarra will divy Orlais up and the elves will in all likelihood be no better off.

 

I tend to believe that when a culture actively removes slavery from it system then it forces itself to be more innovative with how its culture will function and adapt. Look at the age of the American Civil war. The south was heavily dependent on slave labor for basically their entire economy because they lacked any kind of industrialization. The north didn't need slaves because they'd created industry and their factories worked faster and more consistently than an army of slaves would. Once the war was over and there were no slaves what ended up happening to the south? When their slave labor disappeared they become industrial like the north and started to invest in machinery.

 

I believe that the technological advancement of the north happened because they had to find a way of functioning in their society without having slave labor while the south's technology was primitive because they didn't need to innovate because they could just throw and army of slaves at the problem.

 

Once you remove slavery from Orlais I admit the beginning will be hard but ultimately the changes that take place will only make things better for them in the long run. The idea that you have to keep slavery because it would be difficult to transition is an argument that is incredibly short sighted.

[MisterJB]

Slaves? When did Briala travel to Tevinter?

[Giggles_Manically]

I want to choose something different instead I chose RAPTU- wait no wrong game.

 

Both leaders have their good and bad points.

However they both have major bad points

 

Celene throws people under the bus left and right 

Gascard is an imperialistic warmonger 

 

As it stands I will look for something better to support.

[Giggles_Manically]

I tend to believe that when a culture actively removes slavery from it system then it forces itself to be more innovative with how its culture will function and adapt. Look at the age of the American Civil war. The south was heavily dependent on slave labor for basically their entire economy because they lacked any kind of industrialization. The north didn't need slaves because they'd created industry and their factories worked faster and more consistently than an army of slaves would. Once the war was over and there were no slaves what ended up happening to the south? When their slave labor disappeared they become industrial like the north and started to invest in machinery.

 

I believe that the technological advancement of the north happened because they had to find a way of functioning in their society without having slave labor while the south's technology was primitive because they didn't need to innovate because they could just throw and army of slaves at the problem.

 

Once you remove slavery from Orlais I admit the beginning will be hard but ultimately the changes that take place will only make things better for them in the long run. The idea that you have to keep slavery because it would be difficult to transition is an argument that is incredibly short sighted.

I must disagree with this.

 

History has shown that massive societal upheavals are also very dangerous and can lead to very awful results.

 

IF the elves gain their freedom, what then? 
People won't give up their hatred/speciesism overnight, elves included. Someone, somewhere will lose land, have to pay more taxes, lose their job etc.

Say slavery/second class treatment is forced on people? It wont lead to happiness for everyone. 

 

Soon a radical group of humans may attack some elves, the elves fight back, leading to a cycle of violence. This cycle continues for years and just creates more and more problems. 

 

Added to that in the US the scars left by the war have not gone away, they have faded but there are still people angry over it.

Kicking out a pillar of a society stands a good chance of dropping a roof on top of you.

 

Finally its rather naive to believe that things will work out in the end, especially with the already existing hatred between the two groups. If the leader of Orlais were to promote elven interests the war would get worse, and lead to many crisis.

 

Just look at the divides left from the Civil War, or the Troubles in Ireland.

 

Now I am not saying that change should not happen, far from it. I am just saying that attempting to radically twist a culture carries the risk of forever leaving cracks in it that wont heal for an incredibly long time.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Slaves? When did Briala travel to Tevinter?

Well, Orlesian nobles do still have secret slaves. Just look at Fiona. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I must disagree with this.

 

History has shown that massive societal upheavals are also very dangerous and can lead to very awful results.

 

IF the elves gain their freedom, what then? 
People won't give up their hatred/speciesism overnight, elves included. Someone, somewhere will lose land, have to pay more taxes, lose their job etc.

Say slavery/second class treatment is forced on people? It wont lead to happiness for everyone. 

 

Soon a radical group of humans may attack some elves, the elves fight back, leading to a cycle of violence. This cycle continues for years and just creates more and more problems. 

 

Added to that in the US the scars left by the war have not gone away, they have faded but there are still people angry over it.

Kicking out a pillar of a society stands a good chance of dropping a roof on top of you.

 

Finally its rather naive to believe that things will work out in the end, especially with the already existing hatred between the two groups. If the leader of Orlais were to promote elven interests the war would get worse, and lead to many crisis.

 

Just look at the divides left from the Civil War, or the Troubles in Ireland.

 

Now I am not saying that change should not happen, far from it. I am just saying that attempting to radically twist a culture carries the risk of forever leaving cracks in it that wont heal for an incredibly long time.

 

No matter how fast or slow elven freedom is people who see them as less and deserving of slavery are never going to be happy with them being treated equally and extremism is going to happen regardless. When you have a society that's had slavery for so long any change at all to that structure will be resisted completely so in that regard it has to be forced on them.

 

How many decades do you think it would have taken before all the half measures of freedom would have convince the south that slavery was wrong? The truth is that entire generation never wanted them to have freedom so its best to force it on them and wait until the next generation comes. For the next generation they will have lived in a world where there was no slavery and the idea of people owning others is something alien and horrible to them. With each passing generation people who want slavery will decrease and the ones that want to make sure slavery never comes back will grow.

 

I don't think that its naïve to believe that once slavery is abolished that the country will be better off in the end because we can point to history and show that it is. America and all of Europe didn't fall apart when slavery was destroyed they prospered because a culture that at its core believes that people should be treated like people will always strive to improve not just their lives but the lives of their neighbors.

 

Racist tension can't be avoided. No matter what you do there will always be people who will call elves knife ears. What you can do is change the culture so those people are the minority.
 

[Todd23]

As opposed to Celene, who is... not murderous or rapeful herself? And employs no one who rapes, or murders, or both?

I mean, I suppose you could say what she did to and with Briala was consensual, but that would be stretching it quite a bit. And while Briala herself is not a rapist, she certainly is a murderer.

Well, I suppose I should take that back: she's a professional, so it would be an assassin.

COULD say? Did you read the book for yourself? Briala loved her, was the one who snuck into Celene's room, and went out of her way to seduce her in an attempt to try and manipulate her into aiding her people.

[Giggles_Manically]

No matter how fast or slow elven freedom is people who see them as less and deserving of slavery are never going to be happy with them being treated equally and extremism is going to happen regardless. When you have a society that's had slavery for so long any change at all to that structure will be resisted completely so in that regard it has to be forced on them.

 

How many decades do you think it would have taken before all the half measures of freedom would have convince the south that slavery was wrong? The truth is that entire generation never wanted them to have freedom so its best to force it on them and wait until the next generation comes. For the next generation they will have lived in a world where there was no slavery and the idea of people owning others is something alien and horrible to them. With each passing generation people who want slavery will decrease and the ones that want to make sure slavery never comes back will grow.

 

I don't think that its naïve to believe that once slavery is abolished that the country will be better off in the end because we can point to history and show that it is. America and all of Europe didn't fall apart when slavery was destroyed they prospered because a culture that at its core believes that people should be treated like people will always strive to improve not just their lives but the lives of their neighbors.

 

Racist tension can't be avoided. No matter what you do there will always be people who will call elves knife ears. What you can do is change the culture so those people are the minority.
 

This is missing that people often do pass racism down to their children meaning one generation of difference does not equal a new way of thinking often.

 

Sadly our modern world has more slaves now then it ever had, and its a business that makes billions, despite it being illegal in many places. 

As nice as it would be for the elves to get treated like equals by humans the fact is that humans and elves mostly hate each other as we have seen.

 

The best they could hope for was getting the Dales back at this time. 

 

A ruler can not just say "This part of society is gone now" without there being repercussions.

Hundreds of thousands of people died in the American Civil war, the KKK was founded and killed people, and it took nearly a century for true equality to be signed into law. Not even now has that gone from American society (see Duck Dynasty). Even then hate groups and political movements will spring up trying to restore the generational status quo of old meaning the past wont stay in the past.

 

Added to that in Europe they never had a full system of slavery built up, nor industries that truly required them. By the time anti-slavery laws were being issued Europe had undergone the Industrial Revolution and had no need for slavery at all.

 

Thedas has not undergone industrialization, and added to that Tevinter uses slaves as fuel for their magic so Tevinter for example will need an even more massive change then Orlais would to change.

 

The best the elves at the current time could look for is to be enfranchised and gain rights under a leader that supports them, like what Bhelen does for the Casteless. 

 

This change will come at a price and often times what was hoped for does not come to be no matter how noble the intentions. I wish the elves could get a chance at freedom and equality, but I dont see it coming through a state like Orlais who has leaders like we have seen.

[ladyofpayne]

About despice Gaspard being warmoger. Do you remember our history? For his time being warmoger is way to sucess.

[Giggles_Manically]

About despice Gaspard being warmoger. Do you remember our history? For his time being warmoger is way to sucess.

Not I think during a:

Demon Invasion

Mage Templar War

Chantry Schism

Elf Rebellion

Civil War.

 

Maybe after they are done with sure. But not when all that is going on.

[Mistic]

About despice Gaspard being warmoger. Do you remember our history? For his time being warmoger is way to sucess.

 

Only if he wins. Being a warmonger alone is not a way to success if you lose the war.

[ladyofpayne]

And by the wey. In the end of the book he doesn't want to fight with Ferelden.

[Mr.House]

Anything is better then Celene tbh.

[Mistic]

And by the wey. In the end of the book he doesn't want to fight with Ferelden.

 

But not because he has become a pacifist, but because now Orlais is in chaos and starting a war with another country would be suicidal. And whose fault is it?

[Mr.House]

But not because he has become a pacifist, but because now Orlais is in chaos and starting a war with another country would be suicidal. And whose fault is it?

A certain snake who loves to kill and pleasure elves.

[ladyofpayne]

But not because he has become a pacifist, but because now Orlais is in chaos and starting a war with another country would be suicidal. And whose fault is it?

Celene's.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A certain snake who loves to kill and pleasure elves.

 

Celene's.

It takes two to fight. Gaspard is as much to blame as Celene. 

[Mr.House]

It takes two to fight. Gaspard is as much to blame as Celene. 

I didn't see Gaspard killing elves and keeping the status quo while also having sex with one