248 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't see Gaspard killing elves and keeping the status quo while also having sex with one

He is a Chevalier, so he has done the former at least once. As for the second, we have no idea of his sex life. 

[Mr.House]

He is a Chevalier, so he has done the former at least once. As for the second, we have no idea of his sex life. 

Except his chevalier duties did not fuel a war, Celenes did and he like many others had enough with the snake.  Celene was the one who started it, if she could not handle fighting Gaspard then she should have never tried.

 

Gaspards no kitten but don't even try to downplay Celene.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Except his chevalier duties did not fuel a war, Celenes did and he like many others had enough with the snake.  Celene was the one who started it, if she could not handle fighting Gaspard then she should have never tried.

 

Gaspards no kitten but don't even try to downplay Celene.

I'm not downplaying Celene's involvement. As I said, it takes two to fight. Both of them are equally responsible for the mess Orlais is in now. If one didn't do what they did, the other wouldn't have responded the way they did and the civil war would not have happened. 

[Ianamus]

I didn't see Gaspard killing elves and keeping the status quo while also having sex with one

 

Yes, those poor innocent Elves who were barricading off a large part of the city, killing local merchants, guards and civilians and stealing supplies.

 

The fact that they were Elves has nothing to do with it. If a group of humans had been doing the same thing I doubt anyone would criticize Celene's actions. 

[Mistic]

Celene's.

 

So the current ruler is to blame more than the upstart trying to depose her? People in power don't start civil wars; it's those who aren't in power and want it.

 

I didn't see Gaspard killing elves and keeping the status quo while also having sex with one

 

What does it have to do with the cause of the civil war? Sad as it is, the elven uprising was used as a political tool to make Celene look bad and then to ambush her. The nobles who revolted don't give a damn about the elves.

[Mr.House]

So the current ruler is to blame more than the upstart trying to depose her? People in power don't start civil wars; it's those who aren't in power and want it.

 

 

What does it have to do with the cause of the civil war? Sad as it is, the elven uprising was used as a political tool to make Celene look bad and then to ambush her. The nobles who revolted don't give a damn about the elves.

Whatever they care about elves or not is irrelevant, she provided ammo for her enemies.

[BlazingSpeed]

Morrigan strikes me as the type to think and act like she can survive on her wits, knowing herself to be more intelligent than most, and then being pretty abruptly assassinated by means or maneuverings she was totally ignorant about.

 

Cersei Lannister?

 

On topic all of the current choices are bad what huge bull said about Briala sums her up,

 

And then there is Briala, she did a Theon Greyjoy and got the taste of power and it went straight to her head. She is only good at backstabbing, nothing else.

 

Agreed, Morrigan has her own magic mirror and just happens to be working in the the court of Orlais the second someone decides to pay attention to Briala and put out a bounty on her she's done even other city elves will sell her out for 100 sliver stags or whatever.

 

Celene and Gaspard are just by products of the grand game nothing more I do have to admit that these developing events really have me interested in playing this game though.

[Ianamus]

Whatever they care about elves or not is irrelevant, she provided ammo for her enemies.

 

Of course it's relevant, this "ammo" your talking about was trying to improve the lives of elves. 

[Mr.House]

Of course it's relevant, this "ammo" your talking about was trying to improve the lives of elves. 

There feelings on elves is not, Celene gave elves and her enemies enough ammo to start a war, that is her fault. She started it and could not keep up with it, even her bloody lover was against her. People seem to have a romantic view on Celene and treat Gaspard like a monster, not surprising really.

[Ianamus]

People seem to have a romantic view on Celene and treat Gaspard like a monster, not surprising really.

 

Not really. I've seen just as many people who dislike Celene and paint her as a heartless monster as those who like her, probably more, in fact. Even most of the people I've seen who support her acknowledge that there is a dark side to her as well.

 

The reason Gaspard is less approved of is because his primary political stance is that he wants to go to war with Ferelden. It's hardly surprising that this wouldn't get him much support. 

 

If anyone is guilty of having a romantic view taken on them too often it's Briala.

[Mr.House]

Not really. I've seen just as many people who dislike Celene and paint her as a heartless monster as those who like her, probably more, in fact. Even most of the people I've seen who support her acknowledge that there is a dark side to her as well.

 

The reason Gaspard is less approved of is because his primary political stance is that he wants to go to war with Ferelden. It's hardly surprising that this wouldn't get him much support. 

 

If anyone is guilty of having a romantic view taken on them too often it's Briala.

Yet Celene also wanted to take Ferelden back, she was just doing it in a more subtle way that would have been achieved had Loghain not left Cailan to die. So ya saying Gaspard wants to go to war with Ferelden is no different then Celene wanting Ferelden again, the difference is their approach.

[Mistic]

The reason Gaspard is less approved of is because his primary political stance is that he wants to go to war with Ferelden. It's hardly surprising that this wouldn't get him much support.

 

That is probably Gaspard's worst offence.

 

I mean, if he wanted to go to war against Nevarra, I'm sure he would get more sympathy among the fans. Nevarra is expansionist and in the last war they conquered Orlesian lands. Gaspard could sell his cause very well by claiming that he wants to "save" the former Orlesian citizens now "suffering the Nevarran yoke".

 

Instead, he chooses to antagonize Ferelden. Ok, from the point of view of someone who wants to win, makes sense: Ferelden is weak after the Blight and probably would need decades to recover. Still, there's nor eal reason to attack Ferelden apart from wanting more lands and the former Orlesian occupation is still a bitter memory among Fereldans, so that makes Gaspard look like an unrepentant bully rather than a patriot.

 

Yet Celene also wanted to take Ferelden back, she was just doing it in am ore subtler way that would have been achieved had Loghain not left Cailan to die. So ya saying Gaspard wants to go to war with Ferelden is no different then Celene wanting Ferelden again, the difference is their approach.

 

Marriage tend to cause less deaths than war. At least in theory

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That is probably Gaspard's worst offence.

 

I mean, if he wanted to go to war against Nevarra, I'm sure he would get more sympathy among the fans. Nevarra is expansionist and in the last war they conquered Orlesian lands. Gaspard could sell his cause very well by claiming that he wants to "save" the former Orlesian citizens now "suffering the Nevarran yoke".

 

Instead, he chooses to antagonize Ferelden. Ok, from the point of view of someone who wants to win, makes sense: Ferelden is weak after the Blight and probably would need decades to recover. Still, there's nor eal reason to attack Ferelden apart from wanting more lands and the former Orlesian occupation is still a bitter memory among Fereldans, so that makes Gaspard look like an unrepentant bully rather than a patriot.

 

 

Marriage tend to cause less deaths than war. At least in theory

 

I agree, I think it may have been a mistake on Bioware's part to make his preferred target Ferelden if they wanted the choice to be generally grey since it automatically alienated him from many fans.

[Mr.House]

I agree, I think it may have been a mistake on Bioware's part to make his preferred target Ferelden if they wanted the choice to be generally grey since it automatically alienated him from many fans.

The problem is that goes out the window with Celene also wanting Ferleden back. Yes her way would have avoided alot of death(a civil war still would have broke out because you can be dam sure Loghain would not have let that crap go) but it would probably not be big as Gaspard taking Ferelden, but it does not change the fact she wants Ferelden back which really makes her no different then Gaspard in that area.

[The Ascendant]

Celene is just as ambitious as Gaspard but she is far more subtle about it. Her 'marriage' to Calain would have resulted her controlling him and Orlesian culture consuming Ferelden's. The country would have become a province like the Dales. Would it have been bad? The Orlesian occupation under Meghren was atrocious but would it be different under Celene? Possibly it is hard to say as her plans never came to fruition due to his untimely death. It wouldn't change much for magi but it might be worse for elves. Trade might increase in Orzammar and I doubt the Chantry would object considering they are based in Orlais. It is an interesting possibility to think of.

[Ianamus]

The problem is that goes out the window with Celene also wanting Ferleden back. Yes her way would have avoided alot of death(a civil war still would have broke out because you can be dam sure Loghain would not have let that crap go) but it would probably not be big as Gaspard taking Ferelden, but it does not change the fact she wants Ferelden back which really makes her no different then Gaspard in that area.

 

The difference here is in the tense though. Celene wanted a marriage that would give her more influence over Ferelden in the past but has since given up on the idea. 

 

Gaspard wants to invade Ferelden now. 

[Mr.House]

The difference here is in the tense though. Celene wanted a marriage that would give her more influence over Ferelden in the past but has since given up on the idea. 

 

Gaspard wants to invade Ferelden now. 

Celene only gave up because without the marriage she could never take Ferelden, if she had another way she would have done it. She only gave up because getting Ferelden now is out of her abilities.

[Ianamus]

Celene only gave up because without the marriage she could never take Ferelden, if she had another way she would have done it. She only gave up because getting Ferelden now is out of her abilities.

 

What rubbish. If Orlais invaded Ferelden in the weakened state it's in now it would be child's play to take it over, which is why Gaspard wants to. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The problem is that goes out the window with Celene also wanting Ferleden back. Yes her way would have avoided alot of death(a civil war still would have broke out because you can be dam sure Loghain would not have let that crap go) but it would probably not be big as Gaspard taking Ferelden, but it does not change the fact she wants Ferelden back which really makes her no different then Gaspard in that area.

 

She was only interested in the idea when she had the opportunity to marry Calian. Afterward, she didn't seem like she felt it was practical or worth pursuing. These days she came across as more interested in maintaining prosperous economic ties with Ferelden.

[Giggles_Manically]

What rubbish. If Orlais invaded Ferelden in the weakened state it's in now it would be child's play to take it over, which is why Gaspard wants to. 

Fereldan has beaten back Orlais before, survived a blight, and launched an invasion against the Tevinter Empire at its peak.

 

As a nation Fereldan has proven to be almost impossible to defeat.

Sure he could invade.

 

Then he would face years of war until he got thrown out, just like the last Emperor faced.

Gaspard would be an utter moron to launch a war given the history Fereldan has exhibited in fighting back.

[MisterJB]

Plus, they're constantly producing PCs. That is NOT something you want to **** with.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, technically the Warden doesn't have to be from Ferelden and Hawke always leaves it.

[Aimi]

Fereldan has beaten back Orlais before, survived a blight, and launched an invasion against the Tevinter Empire at its peak.
 
As a nation Fereldan has proven to be almost impossible to defeat.
Sure he could invade.
 
Then he would face years of war until he got thrown out, just like the last Emperor faced.
Gaspard would be an utter moron to launch a war given the history Fereldan has exhibited in fighting back.

These sorts of things always fail until they succeed.

When Germany fought the First World War against Russia, nobody had successfully invaded Russia from the west since the seventeenth century. There had been plenty of high-profile failed invasions of Russia since then, like those of Karl XII of Sweden (1709) and some short Corsican guy whose name I can never remember (1812). Wilhelm II, Falkenhayn, Hindenburg, and Ludendorff would've been 'utter morons' to do what they did.

Fast-forward to March 1918 and Russia's government has collapsed twice, its army is in a shambles, and its rulers are desperately negotiating any kind of peace they can get with Germany. Not so stupid after all, right?

So Ferelden's resisted invasions before. That's nice. Doesn't make the country invincible. The cumulative effect of the Orlesian war and the Blight and whatever the heck is going on with the Breach has an excellent chance of weakening the country's ability to militarily resist an invasion. Perhaps an unhardened Alistair is in charge by himself and has squandered the kingdom's resources on well-meaning projects with little chance for success; perhaps Anora is in charge by herself and has managed to stir up a coalition of aristocrats into opposition against her incipient autocracy. You mentioned an 'invasion of Tevinter', which I seem to recall being chiefly a qunari effort with very little Fereldan participation; that's not really indicative of Fereldan power on the march. Neither is Alistair's acknowledgment in DA2 that the country is still in bad shape six years after the end of the Blight.

As for Orlais: sure, the country is in civil war now. What happens when the war is over, though? Perhaps the winner of the civil war uses the conflict as a way to enlarge and temper the Orlesian military. Perhaps he or she winnows out the Game-playing aristocracy, either by design or by the sheer luck of attrition (as in the Hundred Years' War of Earth's history). There are plenty of countries that have been shattered by civil war, incapable of protagonism on the world stage, like the Qing Empire after the 1860s or Spain after the 1930s. There are also examples of civil war strengthening a country in the short term, like the American Civil War or the Vietnam War. And there are borderline cases where a country took a beating but still made plenty of efforts to intervene with mixed results: Bolshevik Russia and Maoist China, for instance.

So don't be too quick to discount Orlais. Predictions are hard as it is. But we don't even know what Orlais and Ferelden are going to be like after this Breach crisis. Figuring out how a hypothetical war could go from there is beyond anybody's power of reasoning.

[efd731]

Marriage tend to cause less deaths than war. At least in theory

Lol red wedding

[Mistic]

Fereldan has beaten back Orlais before, survived a blight, and launched an invasion against the Tevinter Empire at its peak.

 

The invasion of Tevinter... are you talking about Andraste's and Mafertah's campaign against the Imperium? If that's so, it was an barbarian coalition led by the Alamarri, of which the Clayne (the ancestors of modern-day Fereldans) were just but a tribe.

 

Fast-forward to March 1918 and Russia's government has collapsed twice, its army is in a shambles, and its rulers are desperately negotiating any kind of peace they can get with Germany. Not so stupid after all, right?

 

Well, to be honest, given that the war on two fronts consumed Germany's war efforts and in the end they ended up defeated, it was still a stupid idea. In Thedosian terms, it would be like Orlais forcing Ferelden to sign a humilating peace only for Nevarra to crush them on the other front.

 

As for Orlais: sure, the country is in civil war now. What happens when the war is over, though? Perhaps the winner of the civil war uses the conflict as a way to enlarge and temper the Orlesian military. Perhaps he or she winnows out the Game-playing aristocracy, either by design or by the sheer luck of attrition (as in the Hundred Years' War of Earth's history). There are plenty of countries that have been shattered by civil war, incapable of protagonism on the world stage, like the Qing Empire after the 1860s or Spain after the 1930s. There are also examples of civil war strengthening a country in the short term, like the American Civil War or the Vietnam War. And there are borderline cases where a country took a beating but still made plenty of efforts to intervene with mixed results: Bolshevik Russia and Maoist China, for instance.

 

True. Who knows what may happen after the civil war? It's like the Orzammar plot in DA:O: the honorable Harrowmont was isolationist and ineffective, and tended to end up dead. On the other hand, Bhelen was a tyrant but he improved Orzammar's trade, accepted external help and bolstered the army with casteless, recovering some territory from the darkspawn. If there's an epilogue in DA:I, maybe we'll be surprised.

 

Lol red wedding

 

I was hoping someone mentioned it Still, the Red Wedding was because of the war. No war, no Red Wedding.