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Is the release date bad timing on EA/Bioware's part?


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#251
phantomrachie

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I'd be interested in Shadows of Mordor if it had nothing to do with LOTRO, but it slots everything together nicely. 

 

I've seen it go down hill, why would I be exited for it ?I'll wait and until its either down in price after a couple of weeks, or if its really bad just not bother. I very much enjoyed ME2 and ME3 at least until getting back to Earth at which point it fell appart. Not sure what was in the game that could make you cry. 

 

Yes and if I get to a point where I don't look forward to that format, then I don't buy the game. Shadows of Mordor is new, if it turns out to suck, then I won't be pre-ordering the second one :)

 

 

I understand your opinion even if I don't agree. I don't think Bioware has gone downhill. 

 

As to want in ME3 made me cry

Spoiler

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#252
phantomrachie

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Battle for Middle Earth 1 and 2 still belong to the best RTS games. And LotR online was also far away from a bad game.

 

This is why views on games are almost totally subjective, I would not in anyway agree with this statement, but then I'm not a great fan of RTS in general.


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#253
Sanunes

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No but my experiences with LOTR games tells me that there is still a high possibility of it either butchering the lore or using the LOTR franchise as an excuse to have terrible gameplay. This is definitely a wait and see game for me.

 

 

The thing I have been reading is there is already anger towards this new game because it doesn't follow the Tolkien canon for Middle Earth. For it focuses only in Mordor and the Orcs, so I think both developers are going to have people that have their minds made up that their game is going to be awful.



#254
Todd23

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Those people who cared about DAO had every opportunity to do their research. And indeed they did! They've watched gameplay video, they've played a demo and they've made their decision. Guess there were more of them who didn't mind the changes than you care to admit.

Apparently you didn't do the research for yourself. I recommend watching the dev Diaries for da2, it has plenty of lies. What happened was they went into production for da2 not long after they finished Origins. As a result everybody was already completely sick of everything that had to do with origins and they all wanted to do something else (common when making games, it's what happened to katawa shoujo 2) so when it came time to make a decision about this and that they went, we did that last time, something else and doing that at every turn when it comes to a great game is going to result in a not so great game.

#255
AkiKishi

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Lord of the Rings the Third Age raised an eyebrow since the end boss was Sauron (as a tower) still a pretty good solid Final Fantasy 10 combat system clone though.

 

If the only complaint is it does not follow the books/movies I'm ok with that.



#256
Maraas

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Apparently you didn't do the research for yourself. I recommend watching the dev Diaries for da2, it has plenty of lies.

Look, I've watched them at the time and I don't recall any lies—if you're not talking about some cool moves and scenes that didn't make it to the final build. One part of the diaries is actually called New directions, so idk, what exactly are you talking about? Here, point it out, please:

Spoiler

And that they moved onto the next big thing immediately—well, it just goes like that in the biz. They can't sit around fiddling their thumbs, and they never did. So don't act all surprised: oh they were sick of Origins and that's why DA2 sucked so much (it really didn't, if you ask me), they should've idk take a break for a couple of years, then they would've definitely copypaste everything replicate their great success without compromising anything I, Todd23, hold so dear to my heart.


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#257
LilyasAvalon

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cod hits early november, and if anything that will be the biggest threat with people waiting on a game.

 

I'm sorry, but I did have to laugh at CoD being considered a 'threat'. Don't get me wrong, CoD can be fun and the new one actually looks pretty cool, but that crowd is still a bunch of 9 year olds claiming to have banged your mum. Not exactly in the same crowd as Inquisition.



#258
LilyasAvalon

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Look, I've watched them at the time and I don't recall any lies—if you're not talking about some cool moves and scenes that didn't make it to the final build. One part of the diaries is actually called New directions, so idk, what exactly are you talking about? Here, point it out, please:

Spoiler

And that they moved onto the next big thing immediately—well, it just goes like that in the biz. They can't sit around fiddling their thumbs, and they never did. So don't act all surprised: oh they were sick of Origins and that's why DA2 sucked so much (it really didn't, if you ask me), they should've idk take a break for a couple of years, then they would've definitely copypaste everything replicate their great success without compromising anything I, Todd23, hold so dear to my heart.

 

DA2 was good, but it certainly wasn't Bioware's best. Let's face it, the story was dull, unstructured, the gameplay was button mashy and annoying at best, and Hawke served no real purpose in regards to what happened at the end.

 

Great characters though. You can't fault Bioware on that, there is not one character I don't love and wouldn't die defending in that game. ESPECIALLY Varric, Aveline, purple Hawke and Isabela.

 

Merrill was also great too. We see too many 'BWAHAHAHAEVIL!LOL!' blood mages. It was nice to see one who was genuinely not a bad person.


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#259
Maraas

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DA2 was good, but it certainly wasn't Bioware's best. Let's face it, the story was dull, unstructured, the gameplay was button mashy and annoying at best, and Hawke served no real purpose in regards to what happened at the end.

I don't know about best, but I disagree with the rest of it. It wasn't the point of the argument, though. The point was if people knew what they were going to get, or not.



#260
xnode

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Some of those people who enjoyed DAO and bought DA2 sight unseen would be the ones rating it one of ten and complaining on forums. And let me tell you even one thousand of angry buyers could make a lot of noise. And there could easily be one hundred thousand of them, for all we know. But I don't think that all of them or even most of them bought the game without doing any research. 

 

And if this were the case, well, I'd say those people weren't very bright, so their criticism is irrelevant anyway.

===================================

EDIT: Sorry about the long reply everyone , but I wanted to get my thoughts clearly out on this subject and the op's thoughts

===================================

 

Had to chime in, you are correct in a partial way, this is the way I see it and I have no doubt most do...

 

DA2 was in all a success, no doubt that the units sold = profit which what the actual profit vs da:o will only be known by the insider. However ,what is never considered in such an analysis as yours is the after effect. DA2 was sold as the second coming and not just by EA/Bioware but all media. I remember the 90%+ reviews prior to the game release. When the actual game released what did the reviews say after that? What most people (noticed I said most, because sorry no matter how you slice it, on any forum or media outlet I hit, the majority did not care for the new version) thought, that the game was actually subpar and went way away from what Origins was.

 

While many argue that Origin wasn't all that and DA2 was the right way to go, the numbers said different after. Even after some point it was sideways admitted by developers "we think DA2 was a great success , but...." (quote customized by me) and that but would be something about changing a,b,c or going e,f,g rout this time around. Never openly admitting it was a failure or success, staying the neutrality course while playing the "better and improved" line which is actually the smart way too commercially. However it wouldn't have been done like this if it was a great success.

 

Later media outlets and the like caught on to the outrage of what the game really was and new article sprung forth. What happen thou to articles that talked about the media blitz pre-hype? None where found and many as myself called those media outlets out on their false claims. The whole thing was a mess to be honest and while DA2 wasn't the worse game ever produced it was in summary a fast money grab too anyone that actually paid attention too the series. The money grab was not an all out scam, but many feel it was close to it. There was an actual game to be had, but SO many corners where obviously cut , from repetitive questing in same locations to "moving a rock" to change another location or open a certain path, with no reason other then "your on quest C: move bolder to cover passage for quest A" the game lost all submersions and believability even for a fantasy game.

 

The quality and detail of the previous title was no ware to be seen and many believed this was just again a money grab. I think however out of this version of the game came some fun ideas, the faster pace combat and more fluid approach. I know some hate it, personally I loved that aspect. So not all was bad, but I have to be honest with myself, I have attempted 5 times to replay DA2 and I get about a 1/4 of the way in and quit. While in the same hand I can load up DAO and play that to the end multiple times. The quality is just so obviously apparent between both titles. As another said above, if DA2 was the initial game, I doubt DAI would even be made. While ok, it comes nothing close to a triple A release title people come to expect when paying out 50+ dollars.

 

Point to all of this and your remark is many MANY of us did actually buy on the fly for DA2 because DAO was that freaking good! I did my research (sadly not much info was released on the game prior) and the media outlets praised this new version. So on that I bought it without a second thought, why wouldn't I? It is Bioware, known for ME series and that alone was a selling point but DAO in my eyes was AMAZING! So as many we jumped at the chance to get DA2. After all the dust settles the outrage began, silence from the developers for a long time and the media starts finally coming out of the closet and saying what the game is really like after everyone rakes them threw the coals for releasing obvious bias pre-view re-views. Most responding "The demo wasn't like this full game".

 

So in the end who really knows, what we definitely do know is the series got hurt by that release, it did so in the effect that what DA2 DLC did come was little compared to what was boasted on from the devs to come, prior to release. The whole thing went silent and I have no doubt that meetings happened over and over figuring out, "what do we do to save the franchise?" The crap hit the fan, the doctors of Bioware had enough and took off

(personal opinion, the doctors knew what EA wanted and had no choice to give into these request *Probably contract related* and seen where the company was going and thought "good time to get out", it all came around all at the same time, mind you keep in mind that development takes years, they would see this way before we did and those two where very smart, yeah doctors and all but they knew the business they where in)

too then leave when this all started.

 

Don't take me wrong, DAI looks amazing but I have stated it before, it will take some promising reviews and friends to say "this is great!" or allot more information released. I get the basics of the game and in it's fundamentals it does sound very fun indeed, hell I still say they took one of my post to heart a few years back on the idea of keep conquest, but they can have all the credit :) hehe.... anyways, the timed release (keeping to topic) is actually at a bad time for most. As mentioned yet again, there is allot of games on the horizon, people are focused on batman but if you look at my previous thread there is a ton more coming out that are very worthy of many attentions and that's just in the PC line of gaming. The consoles have a ton more lined up around that time. EA/Bioware will have to prove allot more concepts on this game before I (and I have no doubt many others) buy into the game.

 

Many questions like

- "what is the MP going to be like, why no mention of it?" 

- "Let's see an actual action vs choice from just two sides of one keep capture and how that effects things around us not just the end game" (the demo shown went over how choosing a,b,c has an effect but saying and showing? sorry two different things. Allot was said about DA2 as well)

- "Give us an actual play-threw for 5min, don't say anything just play, don't jump the timeline, just play it (as is)"

- "All your descriptions even on your front page of the website are one sentence, you think with a game so big you could write a book on how great it is, basically it's all very vague"

- "Show me what it's like to customize"

 

In other words, show us all this stuff that is bolded on the front page of the website under "The game".

 

----

 

Now they don't have to do any of this, but someone as myself? I need to see it at this point too even consider a pre-order. Hell 4 of my friends are very interested as well, but they have one question "will it have that multiplayer they talked about and will it have some sort of last stand?" , they want the single player experience but their thoughts are as mine, "once we finish all the cool endings or a good amount of them, can't we live on in MP? the devs boasted about loving how ME3 came out in MP and we love it as well, so is that in or dlc later?" these questions and more are on the tips of our lips these days. Before DA2, I wouldn't even have cared, it would be "buy it".


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#261
JakeLeTDK

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When you worries, buy 2 copies!!!

 

All joke aside, while DA2 and ME3 can be considered financial successes, the problem is, those successes won by media: advertising campaign, and dedicated fans' preorders, NOT by the quality of the games itself. In fact, because of how rushed and relatively low quality compare to previous BioWare's titles they were, those 2 left an ugly stain on BioWare's reputation, drove many fans away, and left many others skeptical. It's a bad "career" move imo, trading reputation for quick cash, short term win but long term damage, and that will affect future sales, in this case, being the first title to be released after ME3's controversy, DA:I will take the direct hit. Unfair, I know.

 

Anyhow, I hope DA:I will do well. Last Alien game was a disaster, I doubt fans would jump at the new title, so that one won't be a big threat. Shadow of Mordor and Arkham Knight are the biggest competitor I think, but we will see. 



#262
MstrJedi Kyle

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If Dragon Age was going up against The Division then we could worry.

#263
Maraas

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All joke aside, while DA2 and ME3 can be considered financial successes, the problem is, those successes won by media: advertising campaign, and dedicated fans' preorders, NOT by the quality of the games itself.

Or so you people keep saying, because you didn't get your way.

Spoiler

Long story short, the flak they received had nothing to do with the actual QUALITY of the games. It's just that some people insist upon confusing quality of the game with what they would like a game to be. You know what? You may not believe me, but a game could still be great even if you didn't like it.


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#264
xnode

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Or so you people keep saying, because you didn't get your way.

Spoiler

Long story short, the flak they received had nothing to do with the actual QUALITY of the games. It's just that some people insist upon confusing quality of the game with what they would like a game to be. You know what? You may not believe me, but a game could still be great even if you didn't like it.

 

Indeed it can, but we are having this discussion with multiple people with multiple views on the very same topic started after DA2's release, if it was so great, this convo as DAO would have never even taken place. The argument is the proof itself. The definition of success is what the person/company determines it to be same as failure. One can see 10millions sales a success and another can see 10million sales a failure due to many factors. The thing that can not be denied is the dismay of many people to whom this day still discuss it and those that defend against it. So yes, you are right and wrong, your just on the other side of the argument, per my previous post , past sales of DA2 is pretty obvious and the DLC shows that it was not a great success as DAO.

 

It is all again interpretation and while some argue DAO was a failure the volume of positive vs. negative is pretty blunt while in DA2 I see more positive then negative, but I also see allot more negative, if I where to actually assume numbers, DAO likes 86%, dislikes 10% , DA2, likes 65% dislikes 45% , This is my personal experience being on the boards and other resources over the years, it feels like these numbers are right and in this respect da2 was a success, but not even close to what it could have been. This in turn will no doubt hurt starting sales of DAI until the game is proven then or before then.



#265
AlanC9

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Apparently you didn't do the research for yourself. I recommend watching the dev Diaries for da2, it has plenty of lies.

 

What lies, specifically? 



#266
xnode

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What lies, specifically? 

 

I can chime in one example, the relationship to end game even difference in how the city will grow over time and changed. It changed at one point, during the siege. In the dev diaries they boasted about how during the events of a fast forward (leaps in days/years) things would change and grow around us. While this is true in the (text story events dialogs) nothing boasted on how we would "see" things ever came to light. I think now we will in DAI, but that still remains to be seen. We seen one cut scene of an aftermath and being told the other way will turn out differently, have yet to actually "see anything" in this regard, only taking a words from those that explained the concept.

 

Now you could come back and say "well the dungeon changed" and I along with many would say "adding a bolder to block an entry way and removing another to change a direction does not equal change in the way it was described".

 

Edit: I can also add as an example, in a recent issue of a gaming magazine , more descriptions with an interview from a developer talks about this very concept. In the end game, there is some nasty location that a city calls in for your help, you help then and you have choices. To "unblock" a location (IE remove a rock) or do some other things (can't remember off hand) but the basic simple moving of a rock is done here in this example to unlock a choice. While this version will have a bit more depth to your outcome of a choice, it still is "moving a bolder or not" but in this case to a location out of sight till you choose this path, this leads to content you will NEVER see if you don't choose that rout, giving you replay value. The previous version (DA2) would just be "Ok so I don't see this other path to the same dungeon" less thrill, less immersion , less everything and that comes all back to the point of "a game made for a quick buck" comment you constantly see.


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#267
AlanC9

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DA2 was good, but it certainly wasn't Bioware's best. Let's face it, the story was dull, unstructured, the gameplay was button mashy and annoying at best, and Hawke served no real purpose in regards to what happened at the end.

 

 

The game was only button mashy if you deliberately chose to play that way, wasn't it? On PC I just toggled it off immediately and that was that.



#268
LilyasAvalon

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I don't know about best, but I disagree with the rest of it. It wasn't the point of the argument, though. The point was if people knew what they were going to get, or not.

 

Wasn't arguing with you, I probably didn't make my point clear. You said they were trying down a new direction with DA2, they did, it evidently didn't work as well as they'd hoped, appealing to neither the old Origins crowd or the newer crowd they wanted for DA2.

 

They adjusted things with the DLC, it worked out better, and they decided to cut their losses early with DA2 and learn from their mistakes to focus on Inquisition.

 

Devs said some things, yeah, a few of them weren't true, people were disappointed, devs learn from it, people move on.

 

Or are supposed to anyway. Are people really still this butthurt over DA2 so long after it was released?


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#269
Todd23

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2nd video: 1:30 Implied we have any say as to how we come to power (not a full blown lie, yet not what I was referring to). I guess it wasn't mentioned during the dev diaries, but I remember during the games development the devs bringing up two things 1. that your character has family and whether or not the family means something to you is totally up to you, and then oops they all just died- sorry about that 2. (what I was referring to) it might have been during an interview or something on Twitter but they said that the reason they made a human only protagonist was because this way instead of focusing so much on your characters past they can just focus on the main story itself, and now you're going to have even more decisions and more say to the actual story than origins. Which is more than an exaggeration it's just outright not true.
Edit: But I've been aiding in derailing this thread, so maybe we should get back on topic.
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#270
LilyasAvalon

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The game was only button mashy if you deliberately chose to play that way, wasn't it? On PC I just toggled it off immediately and that was that.

 

True, but the gameplay still wasn't that great imo.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was faster and more fluid, but quickly begins to feel like a chore. Some fights were great, like the Arishok, Meredith and the High Dragon? Or the boss battles in the DLC? Absolute top. The boss fight in Legacy is easily one of my favourites, right next to the High Dragon from the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

 

But when you're running around Lowtown at night and you just want to get your sidequests done and suddenly you've got bandits jumping from the sky that don't even offer much challenge on Nightmare? Maker's breathe, I hated that.



#271
xnode

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Wasn't arguing with you, I probably didn't make my point clear. You said they were trying down a new direction with DA2, they did, it evidently didn't work as well as they'd hoped, appealing to neither the old Origins crowd or the newer crowd they wanted for DA2.

 

They adjusted things with the DLC, it worked out better, and they decided to cut their losses early with DA2 and learn from their mistakes to focus on Inquisition.

 

Devs said some things, yeah, a few of them weren't true, people were disappointed, devs learn from it, people move on.

 

Or are supposed to anyway. Are people really still this butthurt over DA2 so long after it was released?

 

 

butthurt? lol a bit excessive, but more wise and not willing to take their "word" on anything anymore, yeah that's a bit more like it. The constant subject comes up because the constant threads come up on the same topics, IE buying the game, not buying the game, wise move or not wise move, more info or less info, the topics go on for many still can't way what DAI is , other then more talk during videos saying "and if you do this, this would have happened" our point usually... "show us what would happen, let us not just see text change repeats of da2" show us what you are trying to say what will happen, you said allot of things about da2, now you have to prove it if you want our particular funds, if not, do what your doing..... you asked/commented I replied that is all :)

 

edit: mind you if we didn't care or have interest we wouldn't be here, still interested but much to prove before I will commit, these thread deal with that very subject.

 

ps. crap, way is weigh :P meh typos!



#272
AlanC9

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2nd video: 1:30 Implied we have any say as to how we come to power (not a full blown lie, yet not what I was referring to). I guess it wasn't mentioned during the dev diaries, but I remember during the games development the devs bringing up two things 1. that your character has family and whether or not the family means something to you is totally up to you, and then oops they all just died- sorry about that

 
Not all, of course. If you're going to complain about the devs exaggerating stuff you probably shouldn't do that yourself.
 



#273
LilyasAvalon

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butthurt? lol a bit excessive, but more wise and not willing to take their "word" on anything anymore, yeah that's a bit more like it. The constant subject comes up because the constant threads come up on the same topics, IE buying the game, not buying the game, wise move or not wise move, more info or less info, the topics go on for many still can't way what DAI is , other then more talk during videos saying "and if you do this, this would have happened" our point usually... "show us what would happen, let us not just see text change repeats of da2" show us what you are trying to say what will happen, you said allot of things about da2, now you have to prove it if you want our particular funds, if not, do what your doing..... you asked/commented I replied that is all :)

 

I can understand that. I was here for both DA2 and ME3 and I was one of those people that were extremely hurt with decisions Bioware may or may not have carried out but in my opinion, it's may not even be their fault.

 

I mean, EA did win those awards for worst company for a reason...



#274
AkiKishi

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Lets see I've got two enduring memories of Dragon Age 2. 

 

1. The same cave over and over and over and over and over and over..... Without even trying to hide it on the mini map. 

2. A story that took you out of the game so they could make the situation unsolvable. Great story telling that.

 

My two enduring memories of ME3. 

 

1. Maurader Shields being the "last boss". 

2. The oh so bad ending


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#275
Todd23

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Not all, of course. If you're going to complain about the devs exaggerating stuff you probably shouldn't do that yourself.

Fine, either your entire immediate family that was with you since the beginning of the game will die or one won't and merely disappear after the very first act and only see you for about three short instances after that.