17 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

If with the Circle, when Meredith and Orsino parlay, Bethany will ask Hawke to not force her to choose between her family and her people if the player has sided with the Templars.

I understand the difficult positions she is in; Hawke is her family and now s/he has come to kill most of Bethany's people; but why doesn't she realize that the same applies to Hawke?

Regardless of the differing opinions regarding the debate surrounding magic, a Hawke who aids the Templars is fully convinced that the best way to protect the people of Kirkwall is to Annull the Circle of Magic. Therefore, Hawke is in the same situation as Bethany and she is, in fact, asking her brother/sister to choose between his/her people; the non-mages of Kirkwall; and what is left of the Hawke family.

[king jacky]

what's ur point 

[Darth Krytie]

If with the Circle, when Meredith and Orsino parlay, Bethany will ask Hawke to not force her to choose between her family and her people if the player has sided with the Templars.

I understand the difficult positions she is in; Hawke is her family and now s/he has come to kill most of Bethany's people; but why doesn't she realize that the same applies to Hawke?

Regardless of the differing opinions regarding the debate surrounding magic, a Hawke who aids the Templars is fully convinced that the best way to protect the people of Kirkwall is to Annull the Circle of Magic. Therefore, Hawke is in the same situation as Bethany and she is, in fact, asking her brother/sister to choose between his/her people; the non-mages of Kirkwall; and what is left of the Hawke family.

 

Not really. Hawke can choose to be a Templar or not. Choose to support them or not. Choose to pick up a sword or put it down. Choose to side with them one day and change their opinion on the subject the next day.

 

Bethany was born a mage, lived as a mage, and will die/has died as a mage. It's not as if the flipside of killing all the mages is killing all the non-mages. From Bethany's point of view, Hawke is killing people for simply existing. All the Templars chose to be Templars, chose to let injustices run rampant, chose to follow Meredith, even when she decided to annul the circle for something an apostate did. It's not equivalent.

[king jacky]

this makes more sense thank u

[MisterJB]

Not really. Hawke can choose to be a Templar or not. Choose to support them or not. Choose to pick up a sword or put it down. Choose to side with them one day and change their opinion on the subject the next day.

 

Bethany was born a mage, lived as a mage, and will die/has died as a mage. It's not as if the flipside of killing all the mages is killing all the non-mages. From Bethany's point of view, Hawke is killing people for simply existing. All the Templars chose to be Templars, chose to let injustices run rampant, chose to follow Meredith, even when she decided to annul the circle for something an apostate did. It's not equivalent.

Hawke did not more choose to be a non-mage than Bethany chose to be a mage. And Hawke does not have an option to prevent the fighting anymore than Bethany has; in fact, one could argue that not even Meredith has; and, as we have seen, this conflict between Templars and mages has, literally, lead to Kirkwall being set on fire. The fighting will continue which means more uncontrolled casting, more weakening of the Veil, more demons and more Abominations. And all of that leads to more dead Kirkwallers; deaths that Hawke can prevent by using his/her considerable mettle by putting down the ones casting these spells, summoning demons and becoming possessed.

 

What would Bethany have Hawke do? Stand aside and let more Kirkwallers die?

Fight against Templars, non-mages, his/her people as much as the mages are Bethany's people?

[Enigmatick]

"Something I'd have liked to ask Bethany."

 

Since this is BSN I'm guessing it's "Wanna bang?"

[king jacky]

good one

[dewayne31]

I love Bethany but i think see is somewhat blind to what going on. Even when she was free she turn a Blind eye what mages were doing. where as Hawke four years from Vizciount's Death to see that mage werent as innoence as Bethany thought.

[KaiserShep]

Assuming that Bethany was stuck in the Circle most of the time, she was more than likely only exposed to what seemed to be benign mages. She's even given the task of teaching young apprentices. We have no knowledge of them doing anything sinister under the nose of the Templars, and she gives no indication that she's suspicious of anything. She could be oblivious, but we have no way of knowing that either. But at the end of the day, the fact remained that it was made clear that Anders was the sole culprit behind the bombing of the Chantry, and that was what Meredith was going on when she officially called for the Right of Annulment.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Well, unlike Hawke, Bethany doesn't have any real choice in the matter. She and her friends belong to the Circle, and with the RoA invoked, they're all targets for execution. Surrender is the only alternative, and could result in anything from survival, to execution (back to square-one) or Tranquility (perhaps worse). Dicey, and when it comes down to it, people generally prefer to keep fate in their own hands than relinquish it to others.

 

Hawke OTOH can help the Templars finish the job, or try to protect the mages from it. Clearly, what Bethany would prefer is that you would put her life and her friends' lives over those of everyone else in Kirkwall. One might call that selfish of both parties -- and I would be inclined to agree -- but I'd be hard-pressed to think of a better reason to be selfish than for the life of a loved one.

 

I generally side with the Templars, but if Bethany is in the Circle, I save her or die trying!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Bethany obviously thinks the Right is unjust (naturally since she's target) and wants Hawke to stop the templars who are trying to kill her and her comrades for Anders' crime. The collateral damage from the fight between the mages and templars was only happening because Meredith made the decision to invoke the Right in the first place. And the amount of Kirkwaller deaths in the rest of the city is unknowable. Saving the mages might even result in fewer of them opting to turn into demons.

 

I did recently replay the last part of the game to see how siding with the Templars would have worked out with my main Hawke who had Bethany in the Circle. And there was an option to ask her that same question. If I recall her response is something along the lines of not wanting any of this before Orsino convinces her to stand by the mages. I'm not sure if that means the decision was in her hands or not but since Meredith was the one that made her a target for execution I don't think she had any choice but to defend herself.

 

Ultimately though the whole thing felt all wrong (at least for that Hawke), even with saving her from Meredith in the end.

[Kreator_Wrex]

Put yourself in her shoes for a minute. She never asked for the Chantry to get blown up and everyone inside it, and now the chantry and Grand Cleric are all gone, by the will of Anders, who is an apostate. Now Meredith has gone completely bananas and wants to execute all circle mages, that includes her, for a crime she and every other circle mage had nothing to with whatsoever. Now imagine your very own brother/sister siding with the woman who's gone bananas rather than taking her side. Remember what Bethany is like, she values her family, Hawke is family, and she's very loyal to her fellow mages, to see her people and family on opposite sides is probably not something she was looking forward to. She is in a bit of a predicament, do I choose my family member and go against my people and feel like I'm betraying my own brethren, or do I choose my people and side against my own family member, possibly resulting in them having to me or me having to kill them. I'll also repeat that she never wanted the Chantry blown up, and she definitely did not ask for psycho woman to open up a can of worms.

 

Yes, Hawke is in a bit of a predicament as well, just in a different matter, do I serve the better interests of the people or do I serve the better interests of the mages which my sister just so happens to be a part of. You're right in saying that Hawke is in the same situation as her, but Hawke is not choosing between the non-mages of Kirkwall and his/her last surviving family member. You can side with the Templars and let Bethany live, and they let you do that.

 

My conclusion, same situation, different POV's. That's really all it is.

[KaiserShep]

You're right in saying that Hawke is in the same situation as her, but Hawke is not choosing between the non-mages of Kirkwall and his/her last surviving family member. You can side with the Templars and let Bethany live, and they let you do that.

 

Trouble is, Hawke has no way of knowing this at all. Bethany is standing right there, and for all we know, Meredith can have them all killed on the spot the moment you choose, with no regard for what you have to say. At this point, Hawke has encountered far too many bullheaded crazies that just do whatever the hell they want to put any faith in the idea that making a plea on Bethany's behalf would do any good. From that perspective, the last two Blights would have come and gone ages before I'd take that chance. 

[BronzTrooper]

Hawke did not more choose to be a non-mage than Bethany chose to be a mage. And Hawke does not have an option to prevent the fighting anymore than Bethany has; in fact, one could argue that not even Meredith has; and, as we have seen, this conflict between Templars and mages has, literally, lead to Kirkwall being set on fire. The fighting will continue which means more uncontrolled casting, more weakening of the Veil, more demons and more Abominations. And all of that leads to more dead Kirkwallers; deaths that Hawke can prevent by using his/her considerable mettle by putting down the ones casting these spells, summoning demons and becoming possessed.

 

What would Bethany have Hawke do? Stand aside and let more Kirkwallers die?

Fight against Templars, non-mages, his/her people as much as the mages are Bethany's people?

 

Hawke can choose to either side with the Templars or side with the mages.  You're assuming that Hawke will feel a connection to those who don't have magic simply because they are alike.  One: Templars choose to be Templars.  Two: The Templars choose how they treat mages.  Three: Meredith chose to continue pushing the mages again and again, and when they fought back, she used that as justification to push even harder.  Four: Meredith chose to invoke the Rite of Annulment.

 

How is Hawke forced to side with the Templars when they chose to follow Meredith, despite her increasingly ruthless methods?  Why would Hawke have to side with non-mages simply because s/he is one?  Bethany has no choice simply because the Rite of Annulment will target any mage in Kirkwall.  Hawke has the choice to side with the mages or side with the Templars.  Just like the Dalish don't feel a kinship with city elves, Hawke won't automatically feel a kinship with other non-mages.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The other thing is Bethany probably doesn't see the choice of helping her and her friends against Meredith as choice to stand against all non mages.

[bunch1]

Hawk and Bethany are not in the same situation.  Bethany has given herself up to the circle and lived by it's rules as have all the other circle mages, if their was even a threat that they wouldn't Meredith would have made them tranquil by now, and now they are to be killed for the actions of an apostate and all she want's is her brother/sister, the champion of Kirkwall, to stand by her and help protect the innocent lives of the circle of Magi, which is a part of Kirkwall.  Remember, it's not just capable mages that are to be killed, but everyone.  This is genocide of anyone with mage blood they can get their hands on including the mages who volunteered to undergo the right of Tranquility rather then face the Harrowing and every single child in the tower, they won't care if it's a 14 year old girl or a 6 year old boy they are part of the circle and they will all die.  Hawk on the other hand is responsible for the city as it's champion, though this may just be his/her desire to live in a city that safe for friends and family which would include Bethany as well as Hawks companions splitting his/her loyalty. 

 

But that doesn't mean he is required to side with the Templars to protect the city.  As stated above Anders is an apostate and a deserter from the Grey Wardens, while the circle mages have lived under the rules of the Chantry for years.  If I remember right Guard Captain Aveline doesn't order her guards to help kill the mages, but to keep the citizens of Kirkwall from getting caught in the crossfire.  This tells me she believes that the mages aren't attack the city, but aren't holding back in their fight with the Templars.  We know from DA:O and 2 that circle mages are heavily controlled and not allowed to leave the tower without orders from the first enchanter so it's likely that there weren't that many circle mages in Kirkwall proper when the Chantry was blown up.  Personally, I think that as Orsino and Merdith were running back to the Gallows trying to rally the mages and Templars who were in the city they alerted the city's rather large community of Apostates who hearing of the order to Annul the Circle felt compelled to action, meaning most of the fighting in the city was between Apostates and Templars which would mean that the Circle is not responsible for most of the damage done to the city during the fight. 

 

It seems more likely to me that Hawk does side with the Templars not because of the Circle mages, but because if he/she wipes out the Templars there will be no force to keep the dangerous apostates and blood mages in the Free Marches in check.  The threat of Templars keeps Apostates in hiding and from using their power openly, remember the Hawk family in Lothering.  Without them some may take advantage of their gift to exploit or terrorize regular people across the Marches and he/she might not be willing to let that happen.

[Pauravi]

Hawke did not more choose to be a non-mage than Bethany chose to be a mage. And Hawke does not have an option to prevent the fighting anymore than Bethany has; in fact, one could argue that not even Meredith has; and, as we have seen, this conflict between Templars and mages has, literally, lead to Kirkwall being set on fire. The fighting will continue which means more uncontrolled casting, more weakening of the Veil, more demons and more Abominations. And all of that leads to more dead Kirkwallers; deaths that Hawke can prevent by using his/her considerable mettle by putting down the ones casting these spells, summoning demons and becoming possessed.

 

What would Bethany have Hawke do? Stand aside and let more Kirkwallers die?

Fight against Templars, non-mages, his/her people as much as the mages are Bethany's people?

 

"Hawke did not more choose to be a non-mage than Bethany chose to be a mage."

 

That's not what was said.  It isn't mages vs. non-mages, it is mages vs. Templars.

Hawke DID choose to side with the Templars, just as THEY have chosen to BE Templars.  They weren't born Templars.

 

 

"Hawke does not have an option to prevent the fighting anymore than Bethany has"

 

He can choose not to annul The Circle for the transgressions of one apostate who was not even associated with The Circle.

The "uncontrolled casting" doesn't ONLY stop with the mage's deaths, it could also stop by not forcing them to defend their own lives with magic because if an unjust punishment for something they didn't do.

 

Like he said, the circumstances are not the same.

The mages are fighting against people who have chosen to destroy them.  The lives being lost because of spellcasting are being lost only in response to that choice.  I know you're arguing that it could not have been otherwise, but I don't buy it.  The Templars are making a choice to slaughter all Circle mages as a response to a terrorist act they didn't even perpetrate.