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[CronoDragoon]

So it's no longer an ironclad rule that someone who is dead is dead. Towards the end of Asunder, Evangeline dies and Wynne resurrects her by sending her healing spirit into her body...somehow. At this point I'm less interested in precisely how this was done and more about whether this will be the start of a new possibility in the DA universe to allow resurrection. I don't see much unique about this situation that would preclude further resurrections from being accomplished by sending a spirit into the corpse of the recently departed. With the Veil tears, we might even have an open door to more possibilities of spirit interaction than before.

 

Do you think this event will be treated as a miraculous unreplicable action, or is it proof that what was once considered "rules" of magic might just be traditionally wrong knowledge accepted as true, and demonstrate a lack of proper research into the applicable areas? This is, after all, the conclusion Rhys comes to about magic and the Fade in general after not only the Wynne event but also the revelations about the nature of the Tranquil and the reversability of the act.

[Magister Caedus]

Spoiler

If I recall, Wynne died in doing this. I would think that without incredibly similar circumstances (i.e. dying person hosts a benevolent spirit, rather than being possessed by it.) this feat would be a singular thing. After all, coercing spirits into corpses is what necromancy in Thedas is all about, right?

[Gervaise]

Well if you read the short story concerning Anders and Justice immediately prior to events in DA2 then it would seem that Justice did a similar thing for Anders after he was attacked by Templars.   And of course that is what Wynne's spirit originally did for her.   She was killed during the events at the Circle Tower but the spirit came and resurrected her.   The difference with Evangeline would seem to be that Wynne voluntarily gave up the spirit and that the spirit was happy to go alone with this.   It is also not exactly clear what happened with Cole.   He definitely died but whether the spirit raised him or simply took on his identity is something that we will have to wait for DAI to establish. 

 

Basically the intervention of a spirit can account for any character who turns up in subsequent episodes, having possibly been killed in an earlier game.   Whether this will be allowed in game depends on how fallen comrades are treated.   Up to now they are merely knocked out and then revived, unless you intend to kill them.   May be in the future you will have to call upon a benign spirit to intervene.  That is essentially what we did as a spirit healer when we revived companions in the heat of battle.

[CronoDragoon]

Well if you read the short story concerning Anders and Justice immediately prior to events in DA2 then it would seem that Justice did a similar thing for Anders after he was attacked by Templars.   And of course that is what Wynne's spirit originally did for her.   She was killed during the events at the Circle Tower but the spirit came and resurrected her.   The difference with Evangeline would seem to be that Wynne voluntarily gave up the spirit and that the spirit was happy to go alone with this.   It is also not exactly clear what happened with Cole.   He definitely died but whether the spirit raised him or simply took on his identity is something that we will have to wait for DAI to establish. 

 

Mmm, I was under the impression that Wynne was on the brink of death, not dead, when the spirit saved her. I don't have her exact words, or Anders, but to me it sounded like there was a real difference between what happened to Evangeline and what happened to them. Rhys certainly monologues about how impossible an idea it was for Evangeline to be alive, and this was after Wynne explained to him what happened to her.

[Magister Caedus]

Mmm, I was under the impression that Wynne was on the brink of death, not dead, when the spirit saved her. I don't have her exact words, or Anders, but to me it sounded like there was a real difference between what happened to Evangeline and what happened to them. Rhys certainly monologues about how impossible an idea it was for Evangeline to be alive, and this was after Wynne explained to him what happened to her.

I don't have her exact words either. The wiki says that she claims she was killed, though I remember something about life slipping or ebbing or something. 

I imagine that the type of spirit might make a difference. Wynne's sacrifice makes sense with a spirit of Faith. Perhaps others would be willing in other conditions. Maybe an uncorrupted Justice would have willingly left Anders (assuming he was willing) to right an unjust death? Of course, this assumes possession by a benevolent spirit (rare?), I can't see a demon ever doing something like that.

 

 

Well if you read the short story concerning Anders and Justice immediately prior to events in DA2 then it would seem that Justice did a similar thing for Anders after he was attacked by Templars. 

Where is this short story? It sounds interesting. I'd love to read it.

 

Edit: Never mind, I found it.

[myahele]

I hope it won't be too common place in the DA universe since it cheapens the death of people knowing that all you need is a benevolent spirit.

[Magister Caedus]

I hope it won't be too common place in the DA universe since it cheapens the death of people knowing that all you need is a benevolent spirit.

It seems to me that actual possession by a spirit other than a demon is rare. Both Wynne and Anders seem to be very special circumstances. Wynne has Faith looking out for her throughout her whole life; Anders and Justice were comrades-in-arms and seem to have bonded over the injustice of the treatment of mages. Not to mention that Justice was unwillingly taken through the Veil by the Baroness. 

[Gervaise]

It is rare because on the whole benign spirits do not bother to interact with the mortal realm.  So you have to exhibit a really strong sense of what they represent for them to take an interest.   Obviously Justice was a bit different since he got trapped outside the Fade through no intent of his own but then clearly started to empathise with Anders and the injustice caused to mages.    It also seems to help that you are already what is termed in Asunder as a Spirit Medium, which is linked to the Spirit Healer class and both Wynne and Anders were this prior to their joining with the spirit, so they already had contact with benign spirits of the Fade.   

 

Now people have been saying that the Spirit Healer class no longer exists in DAI.   There seems a possibility that blood mage is missing too.   This could be because with the veil torn apart, spirits cannot be so easily communicated, bribed or reasoned with as before.   Admittedly no one knows the actual details of the Rift Mage, so it could be some sort of Spirit Medium that includes some degree of healing among its abilities but not as extensive of Spirit Healer was, just as Necromancer may be a form of blood mage that specialises in animating dead corpses and controlling them.   I'm looking forward to getting details on the mage classes as I like playing mages.  The Knight Enchanter sounds a bit like Arcane Warrior from DAO which I was sorry to lose in DA2, Necromancer doesn't interest me but Rift Mage could well be my specialisation of choice if it does involve communicating with spirits, provided they are the more benign ones.

[MattH]

Wynne specifically states she was dead when the spirit came to her, although it seems not dead enough (literally just read this part when I came to look at this thread)

[The Night Haunter]

*snip*
Wynne specifically states she was dead when the spirit came to her, although it seems not dead enough (literally just read this part when I came to look at this thread)

Actually in the game she makes a point of saying she wasn't dead. I just played this two days ago. She mentions her life was fading (present tense, not past) and before she actually died the spirit came to her and saved her. 

[CronoDragoon]

Thanks for that. It actually helps me make more sense out of Evangeline's resurrection, since it seems their souls were in the same stage of passing through life to death (though still technically dead).

 

Edit: Well, crap. May have a contradiction here.

[The Night Haunter]

Maybe she says it because she's still confused at that point. She's confused about other things at least (like when she subtly suggests she could be an abomination).

Generally I believe what is in game over what is in over materiels. Besides, in Asunder when Wynne is explaining it is much easier for her to just say 'I died' rather than explaining 'I was on the brink of death, but not quite dead'. Plus it adds drama.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wynne didn't exactly know what had happened to her during DA:O. She was even in doubt wether or not she was even Wynne, or just some spirit immitating her. The way BioWare is going with it, it seems that spirits (if only powerful ones) can be used to resurrect recently deceased persons.

[DontWakeTheBear]

I think of it more this way: They were past the point where traditional healing would be of any effect (in all respects dead but not DEAD), but the spirit merging with them restores them by allowing the host to run on the spirits life energy instead, should they lose the spirit (like what Wynne does) then what's keeping them alive is gone and they're back to being dead. Unlike with necromancy it isn't the spirit running around in the body, instead it's using it's power to keep it's host alive. I also believe it bolsters the power of it's host, we saw what it did for Wynne both in game and in book and I suspect for Evangeline it'll let her use her Templar abilities without lyrium. (that's just my guess though).

[The Night Haunter]

I think as long as their brain hasn't died (something like 3 min without an oxygen to the brain) they can be resurrected by the most powerful of magics, which are primarily limited to spirits or blood mages. Granted we haven't seen a blood mage rez someone, but I assume they'd have the power since they are supposed to more powerful than your average bear... I mean mage.

[Wolfen09]

think of it this way, no heart beat means you are literally dead, but with an aed to jump start your heart you can be brought back.  if they took too long, you wind up brain dead...  i see it this way, she died, literally, no pulse no nothing, but the spirit brought her back before the limit of her being brain dead on revival.  in DA terms she says the spirit possessing her was tied to her life, we even have the conversation in camp where the warden asks if using it too much would put her life in danger in which she replied it probably would...  in asunder wynne literally gives her spirit to evangeline, she gave the spirit sustaining her life to evangeline to sustain her life

[KainD]

Granted we haven't seen a blood mage rez someone

Quentin?

[Former_Fiend]

Quentin?

 

The implication with Quentin wasn't that he was resurrecting them, but rather that he was keeping them alive through things that by all rights should kill them; i.e., decapitation. 

 

Least that's what I got from it.

[Gervaise]

In our world there is a tradition that says a person isn't truly dead until their spirit has fully passed over to the other side and this doesn't happen straight away.   With Evangeline she says she stood the other side of "that blackness" which presumably was the veil and the golden light from Wynne called her back.   So she was poised just over the brink of life/death but not far enough gone that it wasn't possible to bring her back.   From Wynne's description in game and then what she says in the book, this sounds like a similar situation - she was definitely dead but not yet fully passed over.  

 

Obviously it was different with Anders and Justice since I seem to recall they had already merged and then it was Justice within him that prevented his death, which is why I have always speculated whether he really dies at the end of DA2 or if Anders does and his spirit passes over, Justice uses the body to continue his mission in this world.   

 

From Rhys' reaction to Evangeline's survival it is clearly not something that happens on a regular basis but again this is because benign spirits do not normally engage with the mortal realm, particularly the ones that are powerful enough to prevent death.    However, since the Chantry/Templars have always had grave suspicions about Spirit Mediums it may simply be that Circle Mages have not been allowed sufficient freedom to explore these aspects.    May be if you travelled to Tevinter you would find they would not be particularly surprised at what happened, although since they are so involved with blood magic and demons, it may be that the benign spirits have no intervened much there either.   It seems to me that if such a feat was included in DAI it would not be lore breaking but I have my doubts that they would do so.

[Vaseldwa]

I just hope that our inquisitor isn't someone who died (in the blast) and was resurrected by a spirit only to die anyway for one reason or another!

[Iakus]

think of it this way, no heart beat means you are literally dead, but with an aed to jump start your heart you can be brought back.  if they took too long, you wind up brain dead...  i see it this way, she died, literally, no pulse no nothing, but the spirit brought her back before the limit of her being brain dead on revival.  in DA terms she says the spirit possessing her was tied to her life, we even have the conversation in camp where the warden asks if using it too much would put her life in danger in which she replied it probably would...  in asunder wynne literally gives her spirit to evangeline, she gave the spirit sustaining her life to evangeline to sustain her life

 

That's what I always assumed.  There seems to be a difference between being "dead" as in no breath or heartbeat, and "dead" as in when the spirit finally leaves the body.  Magical healing or a Fade Spirit can bring someone back from the first part as long as the second hasn't happened yet.  Just as modern medicine can bring people back from teh brink sometimes.

[Iakus]

I just hope that our inquisitor isn't someone who died (in the blast) and was resurrected by a spirit only to die anyway for one reason or another!

 

Oh, Maker this!  Once was too much already!

[The Night Haunter]

The implication with Quentin wasn't that he was resurrecting them, but rather that he was keeping them alive through things that by all rights should kill them; i.e., decapitation. 

 

Least that's what I got from it.

I think Quentin just went insane and housed a spirit in a conglomerate body (with mama hawke's face). I don't think he actually retrieved his wifes spirit, he probably captured a weak 'good' spirit, or got a demon (more likely scenario) to inhabit his Frankenstein's Monster.

[Vaseldwa]

Oh, Maker this!  Once was too much already!

 

Ikr, if it turns out to be the case it might just kill the game imo (for me at least). It would give a sense of pointlessness! (would probable still play it, but that's beside the point)