117 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Also, the point you made about the other nations attacking Orlais is valid.....but they'd crush th elven rebellion on their way to Val Royeaux. They don't want their own elves getting "uppity" while their military is out of country waging a war. An invasion of Orlais would be as bad or worse for the elves than your average Orlesian.

Not exactly. With the mirrors the elves have power with evasion. The elves will only fall if they take an army to field. The biggest strength the elves would have is that what ever form of center they can make can't be hit due to the mirrors. The draw back is that they can't take any easily reached land.

[MisterJB]

 it the humans who are killing one another and of all thing they have the power to stop fighting each other just as well. If the elves stir the pot even more it still no their fault on what happens in result.

What a silly thing to say. Of course it is their fault.

 

Let's say Celene and Gaspard are to be married which would end the war. This doesn't suit Briala so she sends one group of elves disguised as Celene's men to attack Gaspard while sending another disguised Gaspard's men to attack Celene. 

They both survive; as Briala intended; and accuse each other of laying a trap to murder the other. Thus, the resumes.

And you'd tell me that wasn't Briala's fault?

[leaguer of one]

What a silly thing to say. Of course it is their fault.

 

Let's say Celene and Gaspard are to be married which would end the war. This doesn't suit Briala so she sends one group of elves disguised as Celene's men to attack Gaspard while sending another disguised Gaspard's men to attack Celene. 

They both survive; as Briala intended; and accuse each other of laying a trap to murder the other. Thus, the resumes.

And you'd tell me that wasn't Briala's fault?

Elves disguised as human.....Try again. Your example is a huge stretch. Added, nothing is stopping the people supporting Gaspard and Celene to be fed up with the both of them and Turing on them. Sorry but you missed the entire point. Their is more then one way to end a war.

[leaguer of one]

The point is that Briala would go out of her way to subvert diplomacy. She wants to prolong the war. She doesn't care how...

And your disregarding the fault of the people fighting the war.

[Todd23]

And your disregarding the fault of the people fighting the war.

The difference is that Gaspard and Celene aren't waging a war for the sake of war and hoping to prolong it as long as they can, resulting in many of their own people's deaths. One of whom's goal was to help the same people, only diplomatically.

[efd731]

Leaguer, the elves have the eluvians. They can hide in them, not live in them. They are a fast travel system not a homeland. Makes it hard to pinpoint the elves, but they still need a place to live in thedas. Or get supplies. In fact, the eluvians will necessitate all the elves grouping together, because once the start using the eluvians as weapons.....human racism Allready means rand murdered elves, how many more do you think there will be when the human population of Orlais thinks it's under attack by every elf within it's borders?

[leaguer of one]

The difference is that Gaspard and Celene aren't waging a war for the sake of war and hoping to prolong it as long as they can, resulting in many of their own people's deaths. One of whom's goal was to help the same people, only diplomatically.

1. The elves are not fighting a war fro the sake of war. They want to make sure  they have the power to support and secure themselves and they can't do that with a full powered Orlais around.

2.The issues of the orlisian civil war is one of unbalanced power between it nobility and the common people. The nobles fight and the people suffer for it. If the common people hate the war then they can simple fight to take down the nobility. It not Briala's fault the nobles are easily goaded into chasing their own tail, they had that mentality from the start. If the common folk want the war to end, then it simple, go after the people who are fighting the war.

[leaguer of one]

Leaguer, the elves have the eluvians. They can hide in them, not live in them. They are a fast travel system not a homeland. Makes it hard to pinpoint the elves, but they still need a place to live in thedas. Or get supplies. In fact, the eluvians will necessitate all the elves grouping together, because once the start using the eluvians as weapons.....human racism Allready means rand murdered elves, how many more do you think there will be when the human population of Orlais thinks it's under attack by every elf within it's borders?

I never side they can live in them. I meant to use them to establish ways to make hold outs that are no easily found. If they can relocate a few mirrors and hide others they would have a way to get from one location to another with out having their base of operations found.

[Todd23]

1. The elves are not fighting a war fro the sake of war. They want to make sure they have the power to support and secure themselves and they can't do that with a full powered Orlais around.
2.The issues of the orlisian civil war is one of unbalanced power between it nobility and the common people. The nobles fight and the people suffer for it. If the common people hate the war then they can simple fight to take down the nobility. It not Briala's fault the nobles are easily goaded into chasing their own tail, they had that mentality from the start. If the common folk want the war to end, then it simple, go after the people who are fighting the war.

So that Briala can go after them too? I didn't mean the elves are fighting a war for the sake of war, I meant Briala was making sure one continued, and yes she is doing it for the sake of war. Of course she's not doing it to get off on the idea of war, she has her own ideals in place. But that doesn't change what she is actually doing, and saying that it's as simple as the common people just rising up against the nobles is more than a little ridiculous.

[leaguer of one]

So that Briala can go after them too? I didn't mean the elves are fighting a war for the sake of war, I meant Briala was making sure one continued, and yes she is doing it for the sake of war. Of course she's not doing it to get off on the idea of war, she has her own ideals in place. But that doesn't change what she is actually doing, and saying that it's as simple as the common people just rising up against the nobles is more than a little ridiculous.

No she is not doing it for the sake of war. She has a clear reason. The fact that she is doing it for her ideals means it's not for the sake of war. And it's not ridiculous for the common people to rise up. The problem is not the elves for manipulating the nobles to fight longer, it's the nobles in general who started fighting in the first place.They have little to no concern for the common folk before the war and they have little to no concern for them during and after the war. Nothing show that conflict like this won't happen again. If the common folk don't want civil war then they should stand up and take the people who started it and leads it down.

[r1ck182]

Briala would have my elf Inquisitor's support to create a better life to elves. I could easily kill Celene and Gaspard to make it happen with a new "elf friendly" emperor/empress. The diplomatic way didn't work, it's time to try a new approach to the matter because humans simply doesn't care and will never do anything to change it and lose their "pets".

[efd731]

Briala would have my elf Inquisitor's support to create a better life to elves. I could easily kill Celene and Gaspard to make it happen with a new "elf friendly" emperor/empress. The diplomatic way didn't work, it's time to try a new approach to the matter because humans simply doesn't care and will never do anything to change it and lose their "pets".

then by all means headcanon away lol. But expecting an option to put an "elf-friendly" ruler on the throne is wishful thinking.

[Todd23]

No she is not doing it for the sake of war. She has a clear reason. The fact that she is doing it for her ideals means it's not for the sake of war. And it's not ridiculous for the common people to rise up. The problem is not the elves for manipulating the nobles to fight longer, it's the nobles in general who started fighting in the first place.They have little to no concern for the common folk before the war and they have little to no concern for them during and after the war. Nothing show that conflict like this won't happen again. If the common folk don't want civil war then they should stand up and take the people who started it and leads it down.

You completely missed both points. If she's going out of her way to continue the war and see that it keeps going, then she is literally doing this for the sake of war. I had already expressed that I know she has her own ideals and reasons for said war you're just ignoring what I'm actually saying and I didn't say that the idea of commoners rising up is ridiculous I'm saying that you are being ridiculous suggesting that it's as simple as a group of commoners walking out of their huts saying "hey! stop it!" will cause the nobles and all their armies to bow their heads shamefully and say "okay".

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Briala would have my elf Inquisitor's support to create a better life to elves. I could easily kill Celene and Gaspard to make it happen with a new "elf friendly" emperor/empress. The diplomatic way didn't work, it's time to try a new approach to the matter because humans simply doesn't care and will never do anything to change it and lose their "pets".

 

Celene is about as elf friendly a ruler of Orlais as you're going to be able to find.

[Sylvianus]

I don't know what I think about Briala. I'm uncertain. 

[In Exile]

Briala would have my elf Inquisitor's support to create a better life to elves. I could easily kill Celene and Gaspard to make it happen with a new "elf friendly" emperor/empress. The diplomatic way didn't work, it's time to try a new approach to the matter because humans simply doesn't care and will never do anything to change it and lose their "pets".

 

You can't force Orlais to accept any kind of leader unless you were able to crush Orlais military and then enforce the rule of your chosen leader through a military occupation. The Inquisition has no place where it could get an army that large, and effectively conquer and subjugate Orlais. 

[TheTurtle]

Briala would have my elf Inquisitor's support to create a better life to elves. I could easily kill Celene and Gaspard to make it happen with a new "elf friendly" emperor/empress. The diplomatic way didn't work, it's time to try a new approach to the matter because humans simply doesn't care and will never do anything to change it and lose their "pets".

Sure you might be able to get away with it while the veil tears are still open, but what about after? What happens when the threat is ended and the Inquisition is no longer absolutely necessary? What happens is the other nations in Thedas and those still alive in Orlais fight back. An elf ruled nation is only the desire of the elves, humans wish to protect the status quo and killing two people isn't going to change that. As much as you may not like it diplomacy is the only way the elves will ever gain any ground without angering most of Thedas.

[r1ck182]

Didn't mean to put a elf leader, just a "elf friendly" leader. Elves are garbage on Orlais and in every corner of Thedas. I do not want a elven nation, because it will cause a war in no time. I'm talking about opportunity. Celene could support elves but don't have guts to keep it, she will turn back every time the nobles start to contest her decision as we saw on The Masked Empire. It would be ok if at some time elves start to be seen by the society as humans are, even if we talk about just the common folk. Exiled dwarves are treated by the humans better than the elves, my Inquisitor would want the same thing.

 

Briala is a bard. We know they can pass through an army to kill someone. If both Celene and Gaspard dies, someone will take the lead. But yet, I don't think any of this would make to DAI, read somewhere there is a truce to negotiate peace between the cousins. I would like to meet Briala, but I don't know if we will have a chance.

[efd731]

No one misunderstood you, they just thought you were stupid. Literally no one (that we know of) eligible for the throne of Orlais is elf-friendly.

[efd731]

Also, you eliminate Orlais two strongest leaders in the name of elf rights.....guess which faction gets the fu*k murdered out of them.

[TheWhitefire]

Celene was pretty elf-friendly. She was trying to bring them up to the status of humans in Orlais, but was trying to do so to slowly and (in Briala's reckoning) in such a way as to further her own goals in the end. Celene's idea of an elven intelligence agency and shock troopers using the Eluvians is ultimately what lead to Briala taking the Eluvians for herself. Well, that and learning...

Spoiler

That Celene ordered her servants including Briala's parents murdered to cover up her return to The Game

Briala is doing what she's doing because she's realized the Dalish won't help, and the human noble she had thought was helping wasn't *really* helping, and thus the only people who can help the Elves in the cities are the Elves in the cities. And like the story of Fen'harel baiting two gods into murdering each other to get what he wanted, she intends to bait the two powers of Orlais into murdering each other (by supporting which ever side is winning at any given moment, specifically) until they are so weak and drawn out from the fight that whoever is left will be weaker than the elves, who might finally be able to do something about their position in Orlais, and by extension the rest of Thedas.

I think trying to decide who is 'right' or 'wrong' in Dragon Age is asinine. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons. There's no convenient alignment system. You can't be a Renegade or a Paragon like in Mass Effect. There are only people in Dragon Age, and some people might be doing good things for bad reasons, or bad things for good reasons. Lord Seeker Lambert (who I am 90% certain was murdered in his bed) truly believed that Mages left to fend for themselves would become Magisters, because in his experience all the Magisters he had befriended did everything they could to get an edge on the people above them. It was a tragedy that he couldn't see that he was doing exactly that himself, just with less blood magic involved. Jowan really believed that shattering his phylactery and running away were the right things to do, and that only dabbling in blood magic was an okay thing. Anders truly believed that blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry was the only way to save the mages by forcing the inevitable war to begin, rather than prolonging their plight. Zathrian really believed that placing a curse on the humans who assaulted his family was the only punishment fit for them after the way they brutalized his children and wife.

In short, there's only two things in Thedas that can be seen as plainly, unequivocably evil: Darkspawn and Demons.

[efd731]

And not even the demons^^ imshael seems to view itself as a spirit(of choice no less) and while it's actions are evil, who wouldn't want to murder the people who essentially kidnapped you from your home and bound you in a crappy rock circle?

[leaguer of one]

You completely missed both points. If she's going out of her way to continue the war and see that it keeps going, then she is literally doing this for the sake of war. I had already expressed that I know she has her own ideals and reasons for said war you're just ignoring what I'm actually saying and I didn't say that the idea of commoners rising up is ridiculous I'm saying that you are being ridiculous suggesting that it's as simple as a group of commoners walking out of their huts saying "hey! stop it!" will cause the nobles and all their armies to bow their heads shamefully and say "okay".

You still have not gotten what it means to do it for the sake of war. That term would mean that her entire goal to make sure conflict happen for the sake of conflict. That is not her goal by far. Making sure the war goes on is a means to an end. If it's a mean to an end then it can't be for sake  of war.

 

And you missed the point here their more commoners then nobility and the commoner can force the nobility down.

[leaguer of one]

Celene was pretty elf-friendly. She was trying to bring them up to the status of humans in Orlais, but was trying to do so to slowly and (in Briala's reckoning) in such a way as to further her own goals in the end. Celene's idea of an elven intelligence agency and shock troopers using the Eluvians is ultimately what lead to Briala taking the Eluvians for herself. Well, that and learning...

Spoiler

That Celene ordered her servants including Briala's parents murdered to cover up her return to The Game

Briala is doing what she's doing because she's realized the Dalish won't help, and the human noble she had thought was helping wasn't *really* helping, and thus the only people who can help the Elves in the cities are the Elves in the cities. And like the story of Fen'harel baiting two gods into murdering each other to get what he wanted, she intends to bait the two powers of Orlais into murdering each other (by supporting which ever side is winning at any given moment, specifically) until they are so weak and drawn out from the fight that whoever is left will be weaker than the elves, who might finally be able to do something about their position in Orlais, and by extension the rest of Thedas.

I think trying to decide who is 'right' or 'wrong' in Dragon Age is asinine. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons. There's no convenient alignment system. You can't be a Renegade or a Paragon like in Mass Effect. There are only people in Dragon Age, and some people might be doing good things for bad reasons, or bad things for good reasons. Lord Seeker Lambert (who I am 90% certain was murdered in his bed) truly believed that Mages left to fend for themselves would become Magisters, because in his experience all the Magisters he had befriended did everything they could to get an edge on the people above them. It was a tragedy that he couldn't see that he was doing exactly that himself, just with less blood magic involved. Jowan really believed that shattering his phylactery and running away were the right things to do, and that only dabbling in blood magic was an okay thing. Anders truly believed that blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry was the only way to save the mages by forcing the inevitable war to begin, rather than prolonging their plight. Zathrian really believed that placing a curse on the humans who assaulted his family was the only punishment fit for them after the way they brutalized his children and wife.

In short, there's only two things in Thedas that can be seen as plainly, unequivocably evil: Darkspawn and Demons.

Renegade and paragon are not moralities. It's a definition of actions.

Also, demons are no more evil then tigers, and darkspawn have no will of their own.