117 réponses à ce sujet

[TheWhitefire]

Tablet double posted

[TheWhitefire]

No, but the Darkspawn enact the will of the Archdemon. Although, Corypheus makes one wonder just *what* the will of an Archdemon/Old God really is.

And while demons may not be any more evil than tigers because they only enact their own nature, that nature is based solely in "the darker emotions" and thus are based in acts of depravity and thus evil. A desire demon may not be able to be anything other than what it is, you'd be hard pressed to find an instance where the will of a desire demon is preferable to the alternative. What it is, is by nature driven to do evil.

Renegade and Paragon may not be moralities (at least no more so than Way of the Closed Fist and Way of the Open Palm) but they do tend to indicate a particular mindset, ruthlessness vs. diplomacy. It's a sort of less morally driven darkside/lightside really. Point is, there is no sliding scale of morality or red v. blue mentality at all present in Dragon Age. There's no ticker saying "You earned this many light side points by siding with the templars!" Your decisions aren't driven by being one particular kind of hero, except perhaps to show a consistent personality (DA2 does this specifically).

Siding with or against Briala should be an entirely subjective decision, in my opinion, based on this. I don't think there will be a right or wrong answer. Arguing whether or not Briala is right or wrong is purely academical.

[efd731]

If tigers were sentient, preyed exclusively on humans, and could posess us with the goal of allowing more of their brethren to use as meat suits, then you might have a point. But if you're saying "it's just in their nature" then that's both naive and stupid. Also, evil isn't just intent, it's actions as well. Murdering a baby isn't ever going to be viewed as a "good thing"z

[efd731]

And yeah, right or wrong doesn't matter a whole lot, but I wonder what briala can offer to the inquisition that makes siding with her even worth considering. Only elves can use eluvians, they have no standing army, no worthwhile resources (as of now)....so where's the benifit in all of this?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And yeah, right or wrong doesn't matter a whole lot, but I wonder what briala can offer to the inquisition that makes siding with her even worth considering. Only elves can use eluvians, they have no standing army, no worthwhile resources (as of now)....so where's the benifit in all of this?

Other races can use Eluvians. Morrigan(and the Warden regardless of race if you follow her) used one at the end of Witch Hunt. 

[efd731]

And as of TME eluvian pathways are very hostile to humans. Other people can use them.....but to pass any size able force between them would require elves. No info on how they might affect the qunari and dwarves.

[TheWhitefire]

And Michel shows that being elfblooded isn't enough, either. You need to be a full-blown elf. Or, perhaps as could be the case with Morrigan, have enough knowledge of the old magic that made the Eluvians to travel through relatively unimpeded.

One thing I'm curious about is that the Eluvian discovered in the Dalish Elf origin is explained as a "Tevinter artefact" by Duncan, but was located in a ruin that appeared to be as much elf as human in origin. Makes one wonder just what's going on there.

[TheWhitefire]

That Falon'din statute shows up a lot in the Fade too, and I personally am of the opinion they were just using it as the generic "spooky looking weird statue" because it often has a few different Codex entries attatched to it that are completely unrelated to Falon'din.

[The Night Haunter]

To me, that's the biggest mystery running throughout all of DAO. Because it isn't just that ruin with the problem. The other ruin in the forest has a lot of mix of Elven and Human history (and then when you talk to the Arcane Warrior vial, it shows you an image of both humans and elves working together way back in the day.. and being invaded by some other outside force).

 

Not to mention little things like the statues spread around Ferelden. In a lot of Blood mage hideouts, they tend to have the same statue Tamlen points out in the Dalish origin. The one of Falon'Din. Why do they even have that? The Architect has three of them in his lab as well.

This is getting a little off topic for this thread, but heres my theory on this:

The Old Gods and one of the two Elven God Factions are the samething. That's why the statues look so similar. So either Forgotton Ones or Creators are Dumat and the other Old Gods. 

 

Or maybe its just a reused asset.

[TheWhitefire]

If Briala shows up along with Morrigan, then I'm hoping we get to learn a lot more about the Eluvians and some Arlathan history. Plus all this stuff that's been hinted at with Corypheus's whole speech about the Black City, and the weird ties to the fall of Arlathan, plus humans and elves living alongside each other in Ferelden prior to the fall of Arlathan... also, *underground* elf cities. So many questions. So many questions with answers that would make every Dalish from the Brecillian to the Dales themselves roll around in their graves.

[Morroian]

What Celene did with Briala and the elven rebellion in Halamshirel was despicable.   She sent Briala to deal with it and then just because the Divine won't act regarding the mages unless Celene deals with the elves, she backtracks and burns the entire elven part of the city (innocent as well as guilty mind you). 

 

I think you need to reread that part of the book. There was more to it than that. As for not being sympathetic, she wants to help innocents by causing the death of other innocents. Its not a sympathetic point of view, its pretty much the POV of a terrorist.

[TheWhitefire]

I think you need to reread that part of the book. There was more to it than that. As for not being sympathetic, she wants to help innocents by causing the death of other innocents. Its not a sympathetic point of view, its pretty much the POV of a terrorist.

To be fair, though, there wasn't that much more to it. Enough that I can understand why she did it, but it also demonstrates the clear disparity between commoners (elves or otherwise) and the Nobility that exists in Orlais.

Spoiler

Specifically, the reason she did it is that she was insulted in the way of the game through a play that basically implied she was having a lesbian relationship with her elven handmaiden (she actually was, but that was beside the point. No one even cared that it was homosexual, they were more concerned she was having a relationship with an elf). The whole point of the insult was to demonstrate that she was being too soft on the elves.
Thus, Gaspard forced her hand. She had to respond to the rebellion directly, or else risk losing support among the nobles. She couldn't be seen as allowing the rebellion to be on going just because it was elves and not humans rebelling. AFter all, if it had been human commoners, would she not have directly marched her armies upon the upstart rebels? Ostensibly, this was to keep Gaspard from being able to force civil war on Orlais. In truth, it was a trap to lure her men out into the open and wear them out through the brutal burning of alienage. The civil war happened anyways, and in the very act of trying to prevent it, she let it start.

But, Celene does seem to grow from her experience as a refugee after the battle of Halamshiral, as she realizes just *how* separated she is from the commoners. But even still, she still views elves and commoners as tools and pawns to be used. It is this that Briala sees, and this is why she ultimately turns against the woman she loves.

[leaguer of one]

If tigers were sentient, preyed exclusively on humans, and could posess us with the goal of allowing more of their brethren to use as meat suits, then you might have a point. But if you're saying "it's just in their nature" then that's both naive and stupid. Also, evil isn't just intent, it's actions as well. Murdering a baby isn't ever going to be viewed as a "good thing"z

No, evil is just intent. Action does not make on good or evil. And the analogy is based on the fact that they are being that feed off other beings. They feed off our emotion. One being eating another being does not inherently make one evil. Calling them evil for feeding off us would be like calling us evil for feeding off chickens.

And on the issue of possession, that's no different from being a parasite. That also is not evil.

[leaguer of one]

No, but the Darkspawn enact the will of the Archdemon. Although, Corypheus makes one wonder just *what* the will of an Archdemon/Old God really is.

And while demons may not be any more evil than tigers because they only enact their own nature, that nature is based solely in "the darker emotions" and thus are based in acts of depravity and thus evil. A desire demon may not be able to be anything other than what it is, you'd be hard pressed to find an instance where the will of a desire demon is preferable to the alternative. What it is, is by nature driven to do evil.

Renegade and Paragon may not be moralities (at least no more so than Way of the Closed Fist and Way of the Open Palm) but they do tend to indicate a particular mindset, ruthlessness vs. diplomacy. It's a sort of less morally driven darkside/lightside really. Point is, there is no sliding scale of morality or red v. blue mentality at all present in Dragon Age. There's no ticker saying "You earned this many light side points by siding with the templars!" Your decisions aren't driven by being one particular kind of hero, except perhaps to show a consistent personality (DA2 does this specifically).

Siding with or against Briala should be an entirely subjective decision, in my opinion, based on this. I don't think there will be a right or wrong answer. Arguing whether or not Briala is right or wrong is purely academical.

On demons, their draw to darker emotion still don't make them evil.

 

With renegade and paragon, your point still means is based on actions not morality which is my point.

Any mind set can pick a renegade or paragon action if available. They are not mindset exclusive in any way.

 

But I do agree with your point with Briala.

[Todd23]

And Michel shows that being elfblooded isn't enough, either. You need to be a full-blown elf. Or, perhaps as could be the case with Morrigan, have enough knowledge of the old magic that made the Eluvians to travel through relatively unimpeded.

One thing I'm curious about is that the Eluvian discovered in the Dalish Elf origin is explained as a "Tevinter artefact" by Duncan, but was located in a ruin that appeared to be as much elf as human in origin. Makes one wonder just what's going on there.

Tevinter didn't just destroy everything elven. They tried to unlock the secrets of the eluvians (among other things), but could only use them as a means of communication over vast distances.