My memory is shot at the moment, but does ME2 ever mention infertile females? ME3 touches on the subject of some krogan simply being incapable of giving birth at all, if we're to take Eve and Wrex on their word.
I think it's because of their chances of having a child is so low that they're classified as infertile. But most likely, that could be the case and they're actually incapable of having any children.
Krogan is krogan. Every species is defined by their own traits. Wrex doesn't want to change his species, only their perspective.
It doesn't mean they won't start killing each other. There are lots of krogan that live outside of their homeworld, and like what Wrex said, most never return. Tuchanka's resources are limited and they will need a new planet soon. Wrex can keep them from killing each other, but that's not gonna stop them when the clans are going hungry or are becoming strained on resources.
And the clans will have a far better chance at petitioning the Council for resources and another planet if they're not reproducing like rodents. How does curing the Genophage make this problem better?
Exactly. If I could like, I would
And did I mention that typing on a mobile sucks? Heh.
I can't "like" at the moment either. I used my last one on your first post in the "What did you do today" thread...
I can't "like" at the moment either. I used my last one on your first post in the "What did you do today" thread...
And the clans will have a far better chance at petitioning the Council for resources and another planet if they're not reproducing like rodents. How does curing the Genophage make this problem better?
It doesn't, but because they are helping in the war and taking back Earth, they are deserving of inhabiting other uninhabited worlds that are inhabitable for their species. Sure they want it cured, but they also do want to expand out of their world too. The krogans back during the rebellions were not them, and so, it's not their fault, but they do carry the burden that is inflicted upon them by their history.
So we're likeable but not like-able.
Probably...but things would get probably broken....
I don't want to break anything. I like it here.Probably...but things would get probably broken....
I largely agree with this, though I am curious about how much psychological damage is caused by a stillborn egg...
There's no way in hell the females are giving birth to a thousand live young at a time.
Ah yes, "eggs."
Well, assuming that the krogan really do lay clutches of some 1,000-odd eggs (not all in-game information seems to agree with this), that does not necessarily mean they're reproducing comparably to species that give live birth. Think of it this way: you have a 50/50 chance of getting heads or tails when you flip a coin, but flipping it twice does not mean you are guaranteed -- or even more likely -- to get the opposite result of what you got the first time you flipped it -- the chance of getting heads or tails on your second toss is still 50/50. So with the krogan, each egg in the clutch has a 1/1000 chance of hatching. You may get 1,000 tries, but each miss does not get you closer to that lucky "1" you need.
With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if a fertile female had to lay eggs about four or five times before finally producing any children, but how times can one look at the "piles of children that never lived" (to quote Weyrloc Spokesman) before losing the will to go on?
It doesn't, but because they are helping in the war and taking back Earth, they are deserving of inhabiting other uninhabited worlds that are inhabitable for their species. Sure they want it cured, but they also do want to expand out of their world too. The krogans back during the rebellions were not them, and so, it's not their fault, but they do carry the burden that is inflicted upon them by their history.
They can participate in the war without having the Genophage cured and still have the numbers left over for a viable population.
The Krogan back during the Rebellions may not have been them, but the current Krogan aren't proving themselves much better when you have characters like Wreav building more WMDs than any Krogan warlord in history. You said it yourself, Krogan will be Krogan.
Ah yes, "eggs."
Well, assuming that the krogan really do lay clutches of some 1,000-odd eggs (not all in-game information seems to agree with this), that does not necessarily mean they're reproducing comparably to species that give live birth. Think of it this way: you have a 50/50 chance of getting heads or tails when you flip a coin, but flipping it twice does not mean you are guaranteed -- or even more likely -- to get the opposite result of what you got the first time you flipped it -- the chance of getting heads or tails on your second toss is still 50/50. So with the krogan, each egg in the clutch has a 1/1000 chance of hatching. You may get 1,000 tries, but each miss does not get you closer to that lucky "1" you need.
With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if a fertile female had to lay eggs about four or five times before finally producing any children, but how times can one look at the "piles of children that never lived" (to quote Weyrloc Spokesman) before losing the will to go on?
I think EDI totally screwed up the entire Krogan reproduction thing.... The whole concept of it is too unstable and it doesn't make sense at all to some of the dialogues we hear that do contradict the 1,000 eggs....
They can participate in the war without having the Genophage cured and still have the numbers left over for a viable population.
The Krogan back during the Rebellions may not have been them, but the current Krogan aren't proving themselves much better when you have characters like Wreav building more WMDs than any Krogan warlord in history. You said it yourself, Krogan will be Krogan.
Then this would be a problem in the writing that exists since ME1, since Wrex will tell Shepard that the krogan simply would not be able to maintain their population if they went to war with anyone. If the krogan were able to maintain a viable population even while engaged in a war against the reapers, they should have been able to continue to fight the turians, even without their original birth rate. I guess this is also a problem presented when the writers bothered to give us actual numbers. Keeping the actual percentages vague would have helped to keep this idea consistent.
Death by gunshot is technically a "natural" cause. Being killed is a natural cause unless the cause of death was supernatural.
Wait wait wait... Since when is a gunshot a natural thing? A heart attack is a natural cause of death. A stroke, organ failure, cancer, these are natural causes of death. Nothing natural about gunshot wounds. The reason Krogan birth rates aren't keeping up with their mortality rates is because they are killing each other or throwing themselves in situations that have no chance of them surviving. They are more violent and hostile than any other race in the ME Universe. They are literally killing themselves. As long as this is true, a cure to the genophage only results in another violent expansion followed by a true sterility plague. Regardless of who is in leadership during ME3.
Ah yes, "eggs."
Well, assuming that the krogan really do lay clutches of some 1,000-odd eggs (not all in-game information seems to agree with this), that does not necessarily mean they're reproducing comparably to species that give live birth. Think of it this way: you have a 50/50 chance of getting heads or tails when you flip a coin, but flipping it twice does not mean you are guaranteed -- or even more likely -- to get the opposite result of what you got the first time you flipped it -- the chance of getting heads or tails on your second toss is still 50/50. So with the krogan, each egg in the clutch has a 1/1000 chance of hatching. You may get 1,000 tries, but each miss does not get you closer to that lucky "1" you need.
With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if a fertile female had to lay eggs about four or five times before finally producing any children, but how times can one look at the "piles of children that never lived" (to quote Weyrloc Spokesman) before losing the will to go on?
I don't disagree with your arguments about probability, or the Krogans' emotional reaction. Not to sound insensitive, but considering that the Krogan evolved to have so many young because of the ridiculously high infant mortality rate in the first place, would stillborn eggs really be that much more emotionally devastating?
They can participate in the war without having the Genophage cured and still have the numbers left over for a viable population.
Then this would be a problem in the writing that exists since ME1, since Wrex will tell Shepard that the krogan simply would not be able to maintain their population if they went to war with anyone. If the krogan were able to maintain a viable population even while engaged in a war against the reapers, they should have been able to continue to fight the turians, even without their original birth rate. I guess this is also a problem presented when the writers bothered to give us actual numbers. Keeping the actual percentages vague would have helped to keep this idea consistent.
Wrex always talked about how the Genophage psychologically defeated the Krogan, not biologically. I presumed what he meant was that the Krogan were so fractured as a species after believing they were "sterilized" that they could not organize a feasible future for themselves if they went to war.
In ME2, Wrex is preparing the Krogan to go to war with the Reapers, with his reforms being the sole unique factor. He never brings up a cure as any part of his plan.
They can participate in the war without having the Genophage cured and still have the numbers left over for a viable population.
The Krogan back during the Rebellions may not have been them, but the current Krogan aren't proving themselves much better when you have characters like Wreav building more WMDs than any Krogan warlord in history. You said it yourself, Krogan will be Krogan.
Yes, krogan will be krogan, but that doesn't mean they are exactly all the same and one mind. Krogans take on the burden of the genophage after the krogans who lived during the rebellions. They are confined to their planet, plagued by a synthetic disease, and forced to watch their own children die. That doesn't exactly make a species go nice all of a sudden. You cause generations of hate, and because it "is" generations of hate, and most aliens have short lifespans, it doesn't leave a lot of room for a species to get an "all around" perspective of why the krogans are angry. And I don't blame them. Wreav has his reasons to be angry and for wanting revenge, and Wrex has reasons for wanting the krogans to unite and turn away from war and focus on rebuilding with whatever they have.
Wrex always talked about how the Genophage psychologically defeated the Krogan, not biologically. I presumed what he meant was that the Krogan were so fractured as a species after believing they were "sterilized" that they could not organize a feasible future for themselves if they went to war.
In ME2, Wrex is preparing the Krogan to go to war with the Reapers, with his reforms being the sole unique factor. He never brings up a cure as any part of his plan.
Wrex basically touches on being unable to replenish their numbers if they went to war, but then this also includes conflicts between clans as well as external enemies.
It seems to me that Wrex's plan to bargain for the genophage cure in ME3 was one of opportunity. Wrex wouldn't really have much of a leg to stand on if he demanded a cure without knowing that a cure was actually in the works, so we can blame Mordin/Padok for giving him intel that set this into motion.
But really, from the krogan's position, the potential end of the galaxy is the perfect time to bargain, especially if they don't really think that their species will make it through to the end if left at the mercy of both the bioweapon and a relentless enemy like the reapers, so to that end I can't really fault them. From their perspective, I'd demand no less from the turians if they wanted cannon fodder.
Wait wait wait... Since when is a gunshot a natural thing? A heart attack is a natural cause of death. A stroke, organ failure, cancer, these are natural causes of death. Nothing natural about gunshot wounds. The reason Krogan birth rates aren't keeping up with their mortality rates is because they are killing each other or throwing themselves in situations that have no chance of them surviving. They are more violent and hostile than any other race in the ME Universe. They are literally killing themselves. As long as this is true, a cure to the genophage only results in another violent expansion followed by a true sterility plague. Regardless of who is in leadership during ME3.
"Natural" as in physically applied. It doesn't matter of the method used(excluding supernatural means)it is technically still "natural". A person killing a person is a natural.
Yes, krogan will be krogan, but that doesn't mean they are exactly all the same and one mind. Krogans take on the burden of the genophage after the krogans who lived during the rebellions. They are confined to their planet, plagued by a synthetic disease, and forced to watch their own children die. That doesn't exactly make a species go nice all of a sudden. You cause generations of hate, and because it "is" generations of hate, and most aliens have short lifespans, it doesn't leave a lot of room for a species to get an "all around" perspective of why the krogans are angry. And I don't blame them. Wreav has his reasons to be angry and for wanting revenge, and Wrex has reasons for wanting the krogans to unite and turn away from war and focus on rebuilding with whatever they have.
Actually, no. There are still Krogan warlords and chieftains around who fought in the Rebellions. Okeer and Wrex's father would have been among them, for example, had circumstance not conspired against them.
And the Krogan don't watch their own children die. That's just BioWare being dramatic. They simply don't see those eggs hatch. Not saying that that's much better, but considering that the Krogan only evolved to have such ridiculously high birthrates thanks to their ridiculously high infant mortality rates, Krogan parents should be a lot more emotionally hardened to "dead children". Just saying.
Actually, no. There are still Krogan warlords and chieftains around who fought in the Rebellions. Okeer and Wrex's father would have been among them, for example, had circumstance not conspired against them.
And the Krogan don't watch their own children die. That's just BioWare being dramatic. They simply don't see those eggs hatch. Not saying that that's much better, but considering that the Krogan only evolved to have such ridiculously high birthrates thanks to their ridiculously high infant mortality rates, Krogan parents should be a lot more emotionally hardened to "dead children". Just saying.
The krogan would be used to something like infant death, but these deaths occurred in ways that they're accustomed to. Heck, adolescents die during the rite of passage. Similarly, if the salarians had instead developed a bioweapon that simply made relatively young adult krogan drop dead for no apparent reason, it would also take its toll on them psychologically, even if adults die in all sorts of violent ways anyhow.
The EC slides also suggest that the war was won by the Krogan if you cured it.
I have no idea how a race of infantry with limited numbers could win a war against 2km starships with an unlimited amount of indoctrinated foot soldiers, that makes absolutely no sense. You don't need the Krogan to win the war, infantry is useless against giant ships, you just need them to get an alliance with the Turians, they are disposable after that.
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