280 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Sylrien wrote...

Cailan seems to have been in a position to have done something about the bandaid over the bleeding sore that is the political relationship between Ferelden and Orlais. You're right in that this letter is far from circumstantial, we disagree on those circumstances. The core of the disagreement here is what we think of Cailan, and in my opinion the evidence shows that Cailan would not make such a rash action if it would lead to trouble for Ferelden. I think that no matter what you think of him, he does care about Ferelden so I believe a permanent alliance, no matter what form it takes, is a thing he is doing for his country as a king should. And I think he wouldn't be doing it if it meant being slave to Orlais again.

However, the issue is Loghain and others in the game thinking him to be a poor king. I think the evidence is there by his arranging with whatever it is with Celene that it simply isn't so. He's taking an active interest in what is best for his country.

First of all I always get a fuzzy feeling when people on this board show that they have taken time to try and see other people's point of view, even if they don't share it. It makes reading soo much nicer.

As for Cailan and the alliance with Orlais, I don't think Cailan would do anything he believed was against Fereldan's best, but then again I don't think Loghain would do anything that he believed was against Fereldan's best interest either, and I think we could agree that that really didn't end up very well either. The operative word is "believed".

We don't know the truth of what would have happened if the plan had come true, but there are a couple of things we need to consider. It is pretty clear that everyone in Fereldan thiks that it is Anora who actually rules the country, because Cailan don't want to be bothered with it. While the fact that everyone thinks so doesn't make it the truth, at least those who think otherwise ought to come up with some plausible explanation while Cailan and Anora would want to promote this idea so that everyone believe it, if it's not true.

Without going into a discussion on whether Cailan is foolish or not, he seems prone to be idealistic. It would certainly fit if it's  Anora does most of the daily decisions. She deals with realpolitic and he seems less inclined to it. If Cailan is a lot more involved in the daily running of the country than it seems outwardly and just plays a role, the question remanis why? Why would he do that? I really see no reasonable explanation.

Of course, even if Cailan is naive and idealistic, it doesn't mean that any idea promoted by him is by definition wrong. It's possible to think that he is a total fool, but the union with Orlais is still in principle a good idea (maybe he just got lucky). It is however hard to see how a naive and idealistic King with no previous interest in politics should be able to sell this idea of an alliance with Orlais to his people. Even if you tihnk it would be a good idea (I think it would be a political disaster) it's hard to see how it could sailt through without any opposition. How will Cailan deal with this?

If you, for the sake of argument at least, subscribe to the idea that Cailan has a lot more political skill than he lets on, it's hard to explain his actions. He must have realized that he would face opposition from Loghain. The fact that he has not told his Queen anything of this plan must mean that he doesn't trust her, and must have been prepared for conflict with her over the plan. If that is so, why does he continue to give credence to the idea that it's Anora who is in contorl in the country? Why doesn't he openly try to change people's perception of him, to pave the way for change? It must be in his interest to prepare for a showdown with Anora (and Loghain) if he was so politically skilled.

If on the other hand he is politically naive and Anora really does rule, because he can't be bothered, then things can be explained. He siezes on an idea. Maybe it's not even his idea. Maybe Empress Celine, either from nefarious or idealistic reasons, is the originator of the plan. A naive Cailan would not even stop to consider the political implications and problems of getting the alliance accpeted in Fereldan. He is just seized by an idea, be it a political union promoting peace and prosperity or just more troops to play with.

To my mind, those who wants to portray Cailan as a shrewd King, rather than a naive child, have a lot more to explain to make their scenario believable.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Leliana sez something completely different...

That she does and it's a good instance of the game not getting it's story straight [since we can't go to Orlais to check for ourselves.] Anora's handmaiden is an escaped slave as an example. Given that the 'common humans' have few rights and none against Chevaliers, I would side with the escaped slave's side of things: Sucks to be a common human, sucks way more to be a common elf.

That whole chevalier story is from that woman in the Denerim market, no? I would put too much faith in that, as  such stories tend to me very colored. After all, if you asked an elf from the Denerim alianage about the arls, with Vaughn's behavior, they'd probably tell you that banns can do whatever they wish and nobody can touch them.
Ferelden must be a terrible place.....

The most colourful description of life among nobles in Orlais comes from Leliana, describing her experiences in Orlais. She vividly describes a rather degenerate society.

[draxynnus]

Maria13 wrote...

And as for Orlesian chevaliers...  Are the Ferelden nobility much better? 

The Orlesian woman in Denerim seems to think so: "Here the high are not so high and the low are not so low". There is still stratification, but the gaps between social classes are less. (Even for the elves - the city elves of Denerim point to Val Royeaux when they say things can be worse, after all (not slaves, but they mention how thousands of elves are squeezed into an alienage roughly the size of Denerim's.)

Solica wrote...

Also chiming in false, is the suggestion that Loghain would have charged at Ostagar, if he hadn't persuaded himself of that he wasn't sure of a victory. That just reeks of being part of a late, um, well, revision. There are too many details in the game pointing to him planning to use the battle to have the Wardens massacred, and what the h', lets do the king too.

The Wardens, yes. I think Loghain genuinely would have preferred that Cailan survived the battle to be a good puppet again, but he wasn't willing to let Cailan's survival get in the way of his plans for the Wardens.

RangerSG wrote...

Perhaps, but I still would say it's the same issue. It's not "Anora" oppressing the elves. It's the local rulers. Sure, she's forced to order in the troops, but that's because once there's a revolt, she has no choice. The error belongs to the nobles who oppressed the elves, not Anora.

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing".

Even in a feudal society, the monarch can at least try leaning on their noble subjects to encourage some behaviours and discourage others. Maybe she can't be too overt, but in an alternate ending, Alistair does seem to manage. This suggests that it is possible to do better, Anora just didn't go to the effort. (Admittedly, this could be because she's concentrating on other things, like the university.)

Realmzmaster wrote...

I was not talking about the Cousland Massacre. I was talking about being named Arl of Denerim. Only Loghain could grant him that title. Also the Cousland Massacre only plays out in the Human Noble origin.

All the origins play out regardless of which origin you are, the only difference is which of the six Duncan is present to help. If your PC is not a Human Noble, Fergus is the only survivor and the second child of the family is, presumably, dead. Certainly, regardless of origin, Howe announces himself as teyrn of Highever along his other titles.

wwwwowwww wrote...

Really? Seems to me that this was pretty common knowledge around Ferelden, and considering he's a great General I'd think he'd at least know this little tidbit of info.

Really? WE don't know that a Grey Warden is needed to slay the Archdemon until near the end. Why would Loghain?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

She is the queen. the Top Dog. She makes the laws.
Who freed the elves from slavery? A king. Callahad, was it?

Andraste. The elves largely weren't re-enslaved after the Exalted March on the Dales, "just" denied a homeland. (Even in Tevinter, there are free elves in alienages - in fact, it's mentioned that free elves there are actually better off than in the rest of the world, although that could just be a statistical anomaly due to the bottom rungs being scraped off and enslaved.)

[wwwwowwww]

Why would Lohgain know? I dunno, mabey because he was told that the Grey Wardens were needed by Cailen?

 I mean if your objecting to something and someone tells you that it's needed I'm pretty sure your going to ask WHY?

Being a great military leader and strategist you'd think he'd know what/who/ and how to get the job done correct? 

I didn't get a lot of 1 on 1 time with Duncan to find this out, but he seems to know Cailen quite well so I'm pretty sure Cailen knew the deal and why would he keep that from his General?

Just saying

[Xandurpein]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why would Lohgain know? I dunno, mabey because he was told that the Grey Wardens were needed by Cailen?

 I mean if your objecting to something and someone tells you that it's needed I'm pretty sure your going to ask WHY?

Being a great military leader and strategist you'd think he'd know what/who/ and how to get the job done correct? 

I didn't get a lot of 1 on 1 time with Duncan to find this out, but he seems to know Cailen quite well so I'm pretty sure Cailen knew the deal and why would he keep that from his General?

Just saying

If you have Loghain with you when Riordan explains about it, Loghain specifically says he is very intrigued to know what's it all about, meaning he didn't know before. If you have Alstair with you when Riordan explains it, Alistair didn't know about it either and he has had months to talk to Duncan. Either way all evidence in game suggests that this is a Grey Warden secret and Loghain had no clue about it.

/Edit. I checked the game conversation and LOghain specifically says he didn't know.

Riordan: You are both new to the Grey Wardens and you may not have been told how an Archdemon is slain. I need to know if that is so.
Loghain. It is indeed. I, for one, am most intrigued to hear this.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:57 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Xandurpein wrote...

If you have Loghain with you when Riordan explains about it, Loghain specifically says he is very intrigued to know what's it all about, meaning he didn't know before. If you have Alstair with you when Riordan explains it, Alistair didn't know about it either and he has had months to talk to Duncan. Either way all evidence in game suggests that this is a Grey Warden secret and Loghain had no clue about it.

This is true - but there is a flaw. All evidence ingame suggests that everyone knows Grey Wardens are needed to fight the Blight and the Archdemon. Cailan mentions that if the Archdemon appears, that's the Grey Wardens' job at the battle meeting. Wynne tells stories about the need for them against the darkspawn. And so on.

What people (including Alistair and our pc) don't know is the specifics, or more correctly, the mechanics of it. They do know that Grey Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon - history and tales and general knowledge all indicate this. Although, of course, any detractors or sceptics would be able to pass this off as 'more tales'. I suspect this is the case with Loghain. He'd been taught that the Grey Wardens were needed - but he didn't believe it, because he didn't have proof. It was 'just an old wives' tale'. They don't know that if it's not a Warden, the Archdemon won't really die but will be 'reborn' as it were.

[wwwwowwww]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

If you have Loghain with you when Riordan explains about it, Loghain specifically says he is very intrigued to know what's it all about, meaning he didn't know before. If you have Alstair with you when Riordan explains it, Alistair didn't know about it either and he has had months to talk to Duncan. Either way all evidence in game suggests that this is a Grey Warden secret and Loghain had no clue about it.

This is true - but there is a flaw. All evidence ingame suggests that everyone knows Grey Wardens are needed to fight the Blight and the Archdemon. Cailan mentions that if the Archdemon appears, that's the Grey Wardens' job at the battle meeting. Wynne tells stories about the need for them against the darkspawn. And so on.

What people (including Alistair and our pc) don't know is the specifics, or more correctly, the mechanics of it. They do know that Grey Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon - history and tales and general knowledge all indicate this. Although, of course, any detractors or sceptics would be able to pass this off as 'more tales'. I suspect this is the case with Loghain. He'd been taught that the Grey Wardens were needed - but he didn't believe it, because he didn't have proof. It was 'just an old wives' tale'. They don't know that if it's not a Warden, the Archdemon won't really die but will be 'reborn' as it were.

Thank you Susan I've spent the last 30 min. trying to figure out how to say exactly that

[Xandurpein]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

If you have Loghain with you when Riordan explains about it, Loghain specifically says he is very intrigued to know what's it all about, meaning he didn't know before. If you have Alstair with you when Riordan explains it, Alistair didn't know about it either and he has had months to talk to Duncan. Either way all evidence in game suggests that this is a Grey Warden secret and Loghain had no clue about it.

This is true - but there is a flaw. All evidence ingame suggests that everyone knows Grey Wardens are needed to fight the Blight and the Archdemon. Cailan mentions that if the Archdemon appears, that's the Grey Wardens' job at the battle meeting. Wynne tells stories about the need for them against the darkspawn. And so on.

What people (including Alistair and our pc) don't know is the specifics, or more correctly, the mechanics of it. They do know that Grey Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon - history and tales and general knowledge all indicate this. Although, of course, any detractors or sceptics would be able to pass this off as 'more tales'. I suspect this is the case with Loghain. He'd been taught that the Grey Wardens were needed - but he didn't believe it, because he didn't have proof. It was 'just an old wives' tale'. They don't know that if it's not a Warden, the Archdemon won't really die but will be 'reborn' as it were.

I think that is about it. Since the last Blight was 400 years ago, it's not hard to imagine that some people, like Loghain, are ready to pass that Grey Wardens are needed to stop the Blight as a bit of myth. Especially given Loghains general tendency to believe what he wants to believe. Duncan probably only told Cailan to leave the Archdemon to Grey Wardens, not why. It also fits with the general attitude of the Grey Wardens to keep the darker parts of their existance secret, like that they die young and killing the Archdemon is suicide.

[wwwwowwww]

Xandurpein wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

If you have Loghain with you when Riordan explains about it, Loghain specifically says he is very intrigued to know what's it all about, meaning he didn't know before. If you have Alstair with you when Riordan explains it, Alistair didn't know about it either and he has had months to talk to Duncan. Either way all evidence in game suggests that this is a Grey Warden secret and Loghain had no clue about it.

This is true - but there is a flaw. All evidence ingame suggests that everyone knows Grey Wardens are needed to fight the Blight and the Archdemon. Cailan mentions that if the Archdemon appears, that's the Grey Wardens' job at the battle meeting. Wynne tells stories about the need for them against the darkspawn. And so on.

What people (including Alistair and our pc) don't know is the specifics, or more correctly, the mechanics of it. They do know that Grey Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon - history and tales and general knowledge all indicate this. Although, of course, any detractors or sceptics would be able to pass this off as 'more tales'. I suspect this is the case with Loghain. He'd been taught that the Grey Wardens were needed - but he didn't believe it, because he didn't have proof. It was 'just an old wives' tale'. They don't know that if it's not a Warden, the Archdemon won't really die but will be 'reborn' as it were.

I think that is about it. Since the last Blight was 400 years ago, it's not hard to imagine that some people, like Loghain, are ready to pass that Grey Wardens are needed to stop the Blight as a bit of myth. Especially given Loghains general tendency to believe what he wants to believe. Duncan probably only told Cailan to leave the Archdemon to Grey Wardens, not why. It also fits with the general attitude of the Grey Wardens to keep the darker parts of their existance secret, like that they die young and killing the Archdemon is suicide.

But none of this supports that Lohgain didnt' know, just instead that he chose to ignore what he was told.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No ruler ever addresses the other by the name, in such a familiar way. In the first letter, Celene addressed Cailan by his title. In the third, after the implications of the 2nd letter, she addresses him by name. Rulers never do that, even when they were of the same dynasty. That hints heavily that they are more than just political allies.

:lol::lol:
Do you just pull this things right out of your a**???

No and I suggest you pull your head out of yours.
Show me one letter in which a king or Queen addresses the other by name only without use of the title, unless the intention was to insult, or the two are uncommonly close. 
The codex even says that the letter has been addressed "uncharacteristally familiar tone". 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:56 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Now, I'm far from a Loghain supporter. Can't stand the man, he's immoral, unethical, callous, and cruel, as well as a paranoid delusional of course. But in this I can't really blame him. I'm sure most people in Ferelden, and elsewhere, are the same.

The need for Grey Wardens has become a tale, a story, a myth - and we don't believe those things to be true. The Wardens' secrecy about the exact mechanics of it (necessary though it might arguably be in some ways) has greatly eroded any real understanding of what it is they do and why they are needed - the price they pay to keep others safe. It is, in fact, a terrible liability.

Even now, I (in my persona as a pc) am the hero of Ferelden - I am a Grey Warden who destroyed the Archdemon. But no-one but a select few knows that only a Grey Warden could do this. As far as they know, any great warrior or hero could have done so.

Edit: And, of course, since I took Morrigan's bargain, it clouds the matter and obscures the truth even further.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:44 .

[Xandurpein]

wwwwowwww wrote...

But none of this supports that Lohgain didnt' know, just instead that he chose to ignore what he was told.

There is no mention in legends of a Grey Warden being necessary to kill the Archdemon at all. All we know is history/legend that the Blight almost succeded until the Grey Wardens came, and since then Grey Wardens have been dedicated to stopping the darkspawn. Without the information, known only to Grey Wardens, that only a Grey Warden can kill the Archdemon, the need for Grey Wardens is just indistinguishable from myth and legend.

There is also the fact that neither Cailan nor Loghain even believed it was a Blight. There is certainly no absolute need for Grey Wardens to be able to defeat a regular darkspawn horde. The Legion of the Dead have done it for centuries.

[SusanStoHelit]

Xandurpein wrote...

There is no mention in legends of a Grey Warden being necessary to kill the Archdemon at all.

Again, almost (but not quite) true. At that strategy meeting at Ostagar, Duncan specifically asks Cailan - what if an Archdemon appears. And Cailan's response is: that's what the Grey Wardens are for. Or words to that effect, sorry I can't check precise dialogue because I don't have the game available at the moment. So Cailan, at least, has some awareness that the Wardens are needed specifically for the Archdemon.

I do not mean to imply by this that he knew the specifics. I only mean to indicate that it seems likely that legends (or tales or something) do indicate that a Warden is necessary to kill the Archdemon - but that most people have ceased to believe those legends or tales.

[Xandurpein]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

There is no mention in legends of a Grey Warden being necessary to kill the Archdemon at all.

Again, almost (but not quite) true. At that strategy meeting at Ostagar, Duncan specifically asks Cailan - what if an Archdemon appears. And Cailan's response is: that's what the Grey Wardens are for. Or words to that effect, sorry I can't check precise dialogue because I don't have the game available at the moment. So Cailan, at least, has some awareness that the Wardens are needed specifically for the Archdemon.

I do not mean to imply by this that he knew the specifics. I only mean to indicate that it seems likely that legends (or tales or something) do indicate that a Warden is necessary to kill the Archdemon - but that most people have ceased to believe those legends or tales.

Most likely Duncan had to impress on Cailan that he must leave the Archdemon to the Grey Wardens to ensure that Cailan doesn't jump to the idea of facing the Archdemon himself.

[SusanStoHelit]

I don't think so. It didn't seem like that kind of rote thing - which was clear with his responses to Loghain. It seemed to me to be something generally 'known', if not generally believed. I could be wrong - but that's how it seemed to me.



I'm pretty sure Loghain would have sneered at Cailan for believing such foolish tales - even if he'd believed that it was a true Blight and an Archdemon might appear. And Cailan didn't believe it was a true blight either, so I don't think Duncan had convinced him of anything.

[Xandurpein]

I guess it's one of those things we'll never know for sure. I would have assumed that given Cailan's nature, Duncan would have made extra sure Cailan didn't seize upon the idea to face the Archdemon himself, but I could be wrong too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No and I suggest you pull your head out of yours.
Show me one letter in which a king or Queen addresses the other by name only without use of the title, unless the intention was to insult, or the two are uncommonly close. 
The codex even says that the letter has been addressed "uncharacteristally familiar tone". 

Kings and presidents can very well be friends of good aquaitances. It's not uncommon to use their names, epsecially when speaking informally.
An official letter will always have each party adresssed approapriately, but that latter was harldy an official document.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No ruler ever addresses the other by the name, in such a familiar way. In the first letter, Celene addressed Cailan by his title. In the third, after the implications of the 2nd letter, she addresses him by name. Rulers never do that, even when they were of the same dynasty. That hints heavily that they are more than just political allies.

:lol::lol:
Do you just pull this things right out of your a**???

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No and I suggest you pull your head out of yours.
Show me one letter in which a king or Queen addresses the other by name only without use of the title, unless the intention was to insult, or the two are uncommonly close. 
The codex even says that the letter has been addressed "uncharacteristally familiar tone". 

Kings and presidents can very well be friends of good aquaitances. It's not uncommon to use their names, epsecially when speaking informally.
An official letter will always have each party adresssed approapriately, but that latter was harldy an official document.

First KnightogPhoenix says that the document "hints heavily that they are more than just political allies" which you respond by dragging the debate down to a gutter level, then KnightofPhoenix shows you the evidence that backs this statement and you reply that "Kings and presidents can very well be friends of good aquaitances". What part of "more than just political allies" didn't you understand?

You may disagree with his conclusion, but he makes a valid point. If you aren't man enough to even offer an apology for that totally uncalled for name-calling, when he can even back his opinion with excerpts from the codex, then I don't see why anyone should listen to you at all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No and I suggest you pull your head out of yours.
Show me one letter in which a king or Queen addresses the other by name only without use of the title, unless the intention was to insult, or the two are uncommonly close. 
The codex even says that the letter has been addressed "uncharacteristally familiar tone". 

Kings and presidents can very well be friends of good aquaitances. It's not uncommon to use their names, epsecially when speaking informally.
An official letter will always have each party adresssed approapriately, but that latter was harldy an official document.

I am not talking about modern presidents. And even today, I don't think Obama can write to Queen Elizabeth and tell her "Hey Elizabeth". Heck, President Obama's wife only touched the Queen and the Brits were in uproar.

Even in medieval times, Kings never address each other by name only, even between kings of the same dynasty.
Calling a King by his name only heavily hints that there is something going on between Cailan and Celene. Add "Permanent alliance". And "uncharacteristicly familiar tone". Plus the prievous letter from Eammon. And there is strong reason to suspect that they are going to marry.

This is a few examples of medieval letters.
 http://www.dragonbear.com/letters.html

And duh, obviously it wasn't an official letter, which makes it even more suspicious. Why not talk about this "permanent alliance" in an official letter?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2010 - 04:06 .

[DariusKalera]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why would Lohgain know? I dunno, mabey because he was told that the Grey Wardens were needed by Cailen?

 I mean if your objecting to something and someone tells you that it's needed I'm pretty sure your going to ask WHY?

Being a great military leader and strategist you'd think he'd know what/who/ and how to get the job done correct? 

I didn't get a lot of 1 on 1 time with Duncan to find this out, but he seems to know Cailen quite well so I'm pretty sure Cailen knew the deal and why would he keep that from his General?

Just saying

He didn't tell his general because he did not know.  Everything that we have seen about Cailan tells me that if he had known, he would have gone through the Joining to become a Grey Warden himself.  I think Duncan knew this and thats why he kept that part of it a secret.

So, with Cailan not know "exactly" why the Wardens need to be there, he is just operating under what Duncan tells him and from what he knows about their legend.  Loghain would have been operating under the same information.

In Loghain's eyes, they would have just been seen as more soldiers, no matter thier legend or highly skilled they were.  He would not have seen the last two Wardens in Fereldan as being needed.  He would only see them as a liability because of what they knew about the battle.
 

[Damsel of Distress]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not talking about modern presidents. And even today, I don't think Obama can write to Queen Elizabeth and tell her "Hey Elizabeth". Heck, President Obama's wife only touched the Queen and the Brits were in uproar.

Even in medieval times, Kings never address each other by name only, even between kings of the same dynasty.
Calling a King by his name only heavily hints that there is something going on between Cailan and Celene. Add "Permanent alliance". And "uncharacteristicly familiar tone". Plus the prievous letter from Eammon. And there is strong reason to suspect that they are going to marry.

This is a few examples of medieval letters.
 http://www.dragonbear.com/letters.html

And duh, obviously it wasn't an official letter, which makes it even more suspicious. Why not talk about this "permanent alliance" in an official letter?

While I agree that Cailan and Celene were probably having an affair, I don't believe they were going to marry.

Arl Eamon's letter shows that he's discussed Cailan ditching Anora quite often, and despite that fact that Cailan has apparantly had numerous affairs, he's brushed him off each and every time. That shows a  degree of loyalty to his marriage with Anora.

[pudi0072000]

Xandurpein wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

There is no mention in legends of a Grey Warden being necessary to kill the Archdemon at all.

Again, almost (but not quite) true. At that strategy meeting at Ostagar, Duncan specifically asks Cailan - what if an Archdemon appears. And Cailan's response is: that's what the Grey Wardens are for. Or words to that effect, sorry I can't check precise dialogue because I don't have the game available at the moment. So Cailan, at least, has some awareness that the Wardens are needed specifically for the Archdemon.

I do not mean to imply by this that he knew the specifics. I only mean to indicate that it seems likely that legends (or tales or something) do indicate that a Warden is necessary to kill the Archdemon - but that most people have ceased to believe those legends or tales.

Most likely Duncan had to impress on Cailan that he must leave the Archdemon to the Grey Wardens to ensure that Cailan doesn't jump to the idea of facing the Archdemon himself.

Spoiler








In RtO Alistair says that Cailan kept Maric's sword because he hoped to slay the archdemon with it.

Modifié par pudi0072000, 25 janvier 2010 - 07:52 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Cool - I haven't got RtO so I didn't have that piece of information. But it fits very nicely. Loghain is correct in thinking that Cailan is bedazzled by the Wardens and their legends. He is mistaken in thinking the Wardens did the bedazzling (that was Cailan's own hunger for glory) and in believing that there was no substance to the legends.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Damsel of Distress wrote...
While I agree that Cailan and Celene were probably having an affair, I don't believe they were going to marry.

Arl Eamon's letter shows that he's discussed Cailan ditching Anora quite often, and despite that fact that Cailan has apparantly had numerous affairs, he's brushed him off each and every time. That shows a  degree of loyalty to his marriage with Anora.

"Permanent alliance" hints heavily that they were planning marriage. Maybe Cailan would have a change of heart? Maybe. We don't know and it will remain a what if.
Plus, we must remember that Celene is a genius in politics, probably beautiful and very sophisticated. If Anora easily captured Cailan's attention, I doubt his "loyalty" would last long in front of Celene.

Of course, this is all speculation. But I believe the evidence we have make this theory very probable and likely.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Cool - I haven't got RtO so I didn't have that piece of information. But it fits very nicely. Loghain is correct in thinking that Cailan is bedazzled by the Wardens and their legends. He is mistaken in thinking the Wardens did the bedazzling (that was Cailan's own hunger for glory) and in believing that there was no substance to the legends.

I agree that Cailan's infatuation with the Wardens and glory is not primarly the Warden's doing. But then again, we don't really see Duncan slapping some sense in the guy (metaphorically speaking of course). I don't know, but it looked as if Duncan was taking advantage of Cailan's bedazzled state. And why wouldn't he? The Wardens desperatly need a king to give them support.
I think that's what ticked Loghain off.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2010 - 08:42 .