280 réponses à ce sujet

[AnniLau]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I agree with Dragon. Without Loghain's treason, Ferelden would have been lost.

Yes, and that was his plan all along, I'm sure. <_<

[Ariella]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I agree with Dragon. Without Loghain's treason, Ferelden would have been lost.

We don't KNOW that. You're making assumptions based on what happened, and honestly we don't know because Loghain never took the chance.

But If Loghain's plans had gone as he had expected them too, Fereldan WOULD have been lost. Fereldan was saved despite Loghain's treason, not because of it.

[SusanStoHelit]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I like the answers too. But then there's the posters who diss other posters for what they believe in. Can we not just all agree that we have different opinions? What's the point of calling other people out on theirs?

I have no intention of 'dissing' you and I agree that it should be kept civil - regardless of how we see the characters or what they did.

[fightright2]

All I can say is, would you really want a king that killed thousands, your parents, and his own daughter to gain the seat in the first place. Sure he is brilliant tactically at getting what he wants but aren't all tyrants?

[Gold Dragon]

No. Without the Grey Wardens, Ferelden IS Lost. It's the Taint that allows the Archdemon to be killed. Without that taint, anyone that killed the Archdemon would have triggered it's immortality by it's possessing another Darkspan and coming back (a la the first Blight).

[The Gay Warden]

I don't approve of Loghain's actions--I know he was a traitor, and I won't doubt he made awful mistakes--but you have ot understand Loghain's INTENTIONS. He TRIED to save Ferelden. He TRIED to end the Blight. Though he may have failed, his intentions were still righteouss.

[fightright2]

Ariella wrote...

The Gay Warden wrote...

I agree with Dragon. Without Loghain's treason, Ferelden would have been lost.

We don't KNOW that. You're making assumptions based on what happened, and honestly we don't know because Loghain never took the chance.

But If Loghain's plans had gone as he had expected them too, Fereldan WOULD have been lost. Fereldan was saved despite Loghain's treason, not because of it.

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly.

[The Gay Warden]

But there's always the "what if". What if Cailon allowed Orlais to invade Ferelden again? There would have been a Blight, as well as an invasion. Loghain left Cailon to die so that the King wouldn't accept the aid from the Orlesians. So... WHAT IF Orlais had invaded? Ferelden would have been lost for sure.

[The Gay Warden]

But there's always the "what if". What if Cailon allowed Orlais to invade Ferelden again? There would have been a Blight, as well as an invasion. Loghain left Cailon to die so that the King wouldn't accept the aid from the Orlesians. So... WHAT IF Orlais had invaded? Ferelden would have been lost for sure.

[Ariella]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I don't approve of Loghain's actions--I know he was a traitor, and I won't doubt he made awful mistakes--but you have ot understand Loghain's INTENTIONS. He TRIED to save Ferelden. He TRIED to end the Blight. Though he may have failed, his intentions were still righteouss.

He didn't try and end the Blight. He didn't even believe it WAS a Blight. He was trying to "save" Fereldan from Orlais, which is just rediculous. You don't worry about the fox in the hen house when the wolf pack is baying at your door. He murdered his own king, the son of his best friend and his beloved Rowan, who was also his son in law because he was afraid of Orlais.

He had a "hide bound Maginot Line mindset" (thank you, Captain Gloval). Loghain was aimed at the completely wrong threat and wouldn't accept it until the PC kicks his butt in the Landsmeet... And even THEN he really not all that accepting.

[The Gay Warden]

Well... I chose to keep Loghain alive.

Also, Loghain knew it was a Blight. Hence his sentence "We shall defeat even the Blight itself!"

It was Cailon who didn't think of it as a Blight, which gave Loghain--in his point of view--all the more reason to leave Cailon to die.

Modifié par The Gay Warden, 23 janvier 2010 - 05:48 .

[Ariella]

The Gay Warden wrote...

But there's always the "what if". What if Cailon allowed Orlais to invade Ferelden again? There would have been a Blight, as well as an invasion. Loghain left Cailon to die so that the King wouldn't accept the aid from the Orlesians. So... WHAT IF Orlais had invaded? Ferelden would have been lost for sure.

I'm sorry, Warden, but you're reaching here, because we DO have information that Orlais wasn't going to invade again. We don't know what would happen had Loghain supported Cailan.

[The Gay Warden]

Not that I doubt you, but can I ask what the proof was? I don't recall.

[Ariella]

The Gay Warden wrote...

Well... I chose to keep Loghain alive.

Also, Loghain knew it was a Blight. Hence his sentence "We shall defeat even the Blight itself!"

It was Cailon who didn't think of it as a Blight, which gave Loghain--in his point of view--all the more reason to leave Cailon to die.

He didn't accept it was a Blight until the PC rubs it in his face. He wasn't fighting the Blight (which is what you claimed), he was fighting a civil war, which he started by claiming the throne.

[Ariella]

The Gay Warden wrote...

Not that I doubt you, but can I ask what the proof was? I don't recall.

If you've got RtO, there's A LOT of proof, and then of course there's what Riordan tells you.

And, you might want to actually QUOTE, what you're responding to if you really want to discuss things.

[The Gay Warden]

Hmm.



Well, back to the original topic. I just don't feel Cailon was fit to rule. It's my opinion, of course, and I'm not saying Loghain would have been any better--just that I didn't like Cailon in particular. he was too eager to woo the Dutchess of Orlais, too eager to become a hero, and too cocky.

[fightright2]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I don't approve of Loghain's actions--I know he was a traitor, and I won't doubt he made awful mistakes--but you have ot understand Loghain's INTENTIONS. He TRIED to save Ferelden. He TRIED to end the Blight. Though he may have failed, his intentions were still righteouss.

Golden Dragon nailed it on the spot.
He didn't try to save Ferelden against the Blight. He was just delusional to believe that his intents were justifiable.

He was crazy. And just because he believed he was doing the right thing doesn't make it righteous.

Loghain was a madman nothing else.

[SusanStoHelit]

Your right to do so. In my view, past heroics do not excuse present misdeeds. Do heroes who become murderers and traitors in our world get off scott free? No. And it was even less true in the past. Traitors - no matter what their reasons or justifications - were executed. Period.

And anyone who killed his own king and betrayed his oaths, no matter why he did it, no matter what his reasons, and then took the throne, was a traitor and usurper.

There was no Orlesian invasion. There might have been a state marriage with Orlais, and a unification of the two countries. Maybe. That's not an invasion. Or an occupation. And it's not Ferelden slavery.

Loghain was a paranoid delusional. We know why he was so. It explains his behaviour - it doesn't excuse it.

Madman who chops his family into bits: I couldn't help it, my mother mistreated me when I was a child. I had a deprived childhood.

Magistrate: Life imprisonment. (Or maybe, locked up in a looney bin for life.)

Now I admit Loghain's experiences were worse than that, but that's a matter of degree and nothing else. Past injustices don't excuse present actions. That's nothing more nor less than the excuse of a terrorist or a madman.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 23 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[The Gay Warden]

Still, nobody know's anything for sure. There's always the POSSIBILTY Orlais could have betrayed Ferelden. Given the evidence, is it likely? No. Is it possible? Of course.

[The Gay Warden]

Still, nobody know's anything for sure. There's always the POSSIBILTY Orlais could have betrayed Ferelden. Given the evidence, is it likely? No. Is it possible? Of course.

[cylriasilver]

I'm going to side with Cailon on this one. He wasn't perfect but he didn't abandon Lothering to a known threat so he could go fight an imaginary one.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I don't approve of Loghain's actions--I know he was a traitor, and I won't doubt he made awful mistakes--but you have ot understand Loghain's INTENTIONS. He TRIED to save Ferelden. He TRIED to end the Blight. Though he may have failed, his intentions were still righteouss.

I have RtO and it seems to me, with the codexs I read from it, that gives Loghain MORE reason to turn against Cailan so I'm not sure what you saw that I didn't (in response to an earlier post of yours).

And Loghain did not try to end the blight. He didn't even believe there was a blight. He tried to save Ferelden from the Orlesians only yet the Orlesians weren't a military threat any more (the codexs I mentioned above probably spurred his paranoia though). And good intentions does not a good king/general/regent/father/person make.

[The Gay Warden]

Ultimately, this is all a matter of opinion. But enough of Loghain.



I want to discuss why Cailon--in my opinion--was an awful king.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

The Gay Warden wrote...

Still, nobody know's anything for sure. There's always the POSSIBILTY Orlais could have betrayed Ferelden. Given the evidence, is it likely? No. Is it possible? Of course.

Orlais = possibility
Darkspawn = certainty

[Ariella]

The Gay Warden wrote...

Still, nobody know's anything for sure. There's always the POSSIBILTY Orlais could have betrayed Ferelden. Given the evidence, is it likely? No. Is it possible? Of course.

We're talking reality (or what passes for it in DA) not Loghain's paranoia. Orlais was under new management, made peace with Maric, the Empress has embarked on a plan of interal improvement rather than external conquest. There was no threat, except in Loghain's imagination. There's absolutely no concrete proof that Orlais planned on invading. We do have proof that Orlais was planning on helping Fereldan by fighting the Blight (Riordan, things in RtO).

We don't know how the battle would have gone, because Loghain didn't engage at ALL.