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Cailan made a horrible king (happy now, Susan?) :P


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#76
Dragon Age1103

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Xandurpein wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

The only person who could make a worse King than Cailan(strategically) would be Alistair. I agree that on the battle field Cailan is a week King, actually all together. After RTO he is just a big douche.lqtm.


I have to disagree there. I think Alistair at least have the capacity to become a much better King than Cailan. Alistair at least have a sense of realism that cailan seem to lack. If Alistair has a problem with his self-esteem, then Cailan simply talks himself inot beliveng whatever he wants to belive. alistair needs help if he is to become a good King, but Cailan won't even listen.

Lotion soronnar wrote...

He was young, what did you expect? cockynes and bravado come with the territory. He would grow out of that with time.


I beg to differ. I do not think Cailan's bravado is of the kind that he will just grow out of. If he had been 15 maybe, but not his age. I would have higher hopes for Alistair to end up a decent King, with some help at least, than Cailan.



  Yeah but with Loghain dead Alistair wouldn't have anyone to advise his armies. Being such a nice guy might get him far when it comes to how the public views him but it holds little to no value in making hard choices or strategic planning on the battle field. I would much rather lose Alistair over Loghain but King wise, I doubt he would do any better. He rarely ever stands for what he believe in, once you gain his trust hell rarely argue with you...meaning Anora or my character could of convinced him to run the country how ever we chose.
   I do have a very bias opinion though b/c I don't care for Alistair at all. lqtm. He's funny & charming but not a good person at all to me.

  ok so wait a minute! is it Cailin? Calian? Cailan? Cailon? or what? I though it was Cailan? I've seen it like 50 ways in this thread!! haha
  
oh how I missed chatting with you guys/girls on the forums!!! My family took me out to get super drunk for my 21st last night  & well....it will be a few years before i drink again :(

#77
Xandurpein

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draxynnus wrote...

On the other hand, look at the United Kingdom. Elizabeth pulled a shrewd move there (partially assisted by the opportunity afforded by genetics) by bringing both countries together largely as equals by making the kings of England and Scotland the same person, a union that's survived pretty much everything since and was probably pretty much unthinkable before she pulled it off.

Of course, this requires having the same person be the immediate heir to both thrones - the problem in the case of the Hundred Years Wars was that the claim to the throne by the English monarchy was fairly weak and indirect, and only really became an issue because the other claimants to the throne were fairly weak. It probably also didin't help that the British throne inherited claims to the former Norman lands in France from William the Conqueror (although, technically, these claims were bundled with an expectation of fealty to the French crown).


Umm... The England/Scotland example just proves my point. England conquered Scotland in war and forced English rule on Scotland. Just as an Orlesia might use a marriage as pretext for conquering Fereldan.

#78
earl of the north

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Xandurpein wrote...

earl of the north wrote...

Rather creepily Anora has to conceive a royal heir for Loghain to be secure as Regent in the long term.....who's going to be the father of the next king?

Loghain or Howe......who else can Loghain trust not to usurp the throne and seize power themselves except himself or his most trusted ally Howe?


Umm... I don't understand what you mean really. Do you tihnk Loghain fears that Anora will die before him? Why on earth be stupid enogh to let Howe or his son marry Anora and risk him becoming to powerful, when he can just try an convince her to take some minor noble as consort who has no power, if an heir is needed. Also remember that Anora never marries at all if she is sole ruler. So I really don't understand what you are getting at.


How long will the Bannon stand for a non-noble queen with no heir ruling the kingdom.....even with Loghain's attempts to remove the most powerful nobles in Ferelden.

Loghain's hold on the crown is based on two things:

1. He's the big hero of the war against the Orlesians.
2. His daughter is the queen.

But without a noble heir, long term that will only lead to demands from the nobility that she marry one of their sons.  Who does Loghain trust for that role, as which ever noble family fathers the new royal line automatically gains a lot of political power.

Best option for Loghain is Anora 'discovers' she is pregnant with Calian's child and the Bannorn rallies around the heir.

Frankly Anora ruling alone, after the ending (if you go that route) is one of the weakest parts of the ending....anybody know of a non-noble queen with no heir ruling a medieval country successfully....I assume she was able to do in story due to the backing of Arl Eamon, who's family is likely to be the next royal line. No need for them to remove Anora when they can do so peacefully in time anyway.

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 12:14 .


#79
Xandurpein

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earl of the north wrote...

[But without a noble heir, long term that will only lead to demands from the nobility that she marry one of their sons.  Who does Loghain trust for that role, as which ever noble family fathers the new royal line automatically gains a lot of political power.


Finish the game with only Anora on the throne and read the epilogue text. Anora never re-marries and rules alone becoming a very efficient Queen who does many things for Fereldan. It's true that without Alistair or possibly a male cousland, she will not properly look after the plight of the elves in the aliange and have to come down hard on a revolt, but other than that she does very well as single Queen. There is no mention at all of her having problems with the bannorn.

#80
-Conspirator

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Cailan was very popular and his courage and confidence knew to motivate the soldiers. From what we can see he was a fine warrior too. Ruling wasn't his thing, but he had Anora to do it for him, which worked well. He might not be the most intelligent or strategic thinking person, but he was definitive a good guy who was very popular, and that is also very important.

#81
earl of the north

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Xandurpein wrote...

earl of the north wrote...

[But without a noble heir, long term that will only lead to demands from the nobility that she marry one of their sons.  Who does Loghain trust for that role, as which ever noble family fathers the new royal line automatically gains a lot of political power.


Finish the game with only Anora on the throne and read the epilogue text. Anora never re-marries and rules alone becoming a very efficient Queen who does many things for Fereldan. It's true that without Alistair or possibly a male cousland, she will not properly look after the plight of the elves in the aliange and have to come down hard on a revolt, but other than that she does very well as single Queen. There is no mention at all of her having problems with the bannorn.


I have a couple of times and as I said....



Frankly Anora ruling alone, after the ending (if you go that route) is one of the weakest parts of the ending....anybody know of a non-noble queen with no heir ruling a medieval country successfully....I assume she was able to do in story due to the backing of Arl Eamon, who's family is likely to be the next royal line. No need for them to remove Anora when they can do so peacefully in time anyway.


With no heir, any countries noblilty would be positioning themselves for the conflict over the throne upon her death......it would leave Fereldan under constant threat of civil war through the rest of her reign.....I can square that away with Arl Eamon's family backing her rule and ascending to the throne upon her death.

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 12:35 .


#82
Xandurpein

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-Conspirator wrote...

Cailan was very popular and his courage and confidence knew to motivate the soldiers. From what we can see he was a fine warrior too. Ruling wasn't his thing, but he had Anora to do it for him, which worked well. He might not be the most intelligent or strategic thinking person, but he was definitive a good guy who was very popular, and that is also very important.


The problem is that we can learn in Return to Ostagar that Cailan had plans to dump Anora and re-marry the Orlesian Empress. So h seems to be ready to do without Anora and forge politics on his own, which I contend doesn't seem to lead to any good.

#83
Dragon Age1103

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-Conspirator wrote...

Cailan was very popular and his courage and confidence knew to motivate the soldiers. From what we can see he was a fine warrior too. Ruling wasn't his thing, but he had Anora to do it for him, which worked well. He might not be the most intelligent or strategic thinking person, but he was definitive a good guy who was very popular, and that is also very important.


I have a stance on what it means to be a good guy & *SPOILER WARNING*


cheating with an Orlesian Wh*** is far from being a good guy. I understand everything is cut throat, medieval world, most or all marriages are forced BUT I take cheating personal so due to that fact he can deserves to die. I realize that is very unforgiving & terrible to say but loghain treated or at least acknowledged him as a son. So perhaps if he wasn't paranoid about the Grey Warden's & Orlesians & if he didn't know Cailan cheated with some Orlesian Wh*** he would of defended his king at Ostagar. I hated to see Cailan die b/c his system did work & he was a great guy but when I found that out I forgave Loghain for a lot & could care less that we lost our King.

Modifié par Dragon Age1103, 23 janvier 2010 - 12:29 .


#84
earl of the north

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Xandurpein wrote...

-Conspirator wrote...

Cailan was very popular and his courage and confidence knew to motivate the soldiers. From what we can see he was a fine warrior too. Ruling wasn't his thing, but he had Anora to do it for him, which worked well. He might not be the most intelligent or strategic thinking person, but he was definitive a good guy who was very popular, and that is also very important.


The problem is that we can learn in Return to Ostagar that Cailan had plans to dump Anora and re-marry the Orlesian Empress. So h seems to be ready to do without Anora and forge politics on his own, which I contend doesn't seem to lead to any good.



I've not read much about RtO, so that came as a surprise......

Okay Cailan is a big a screw up as Loghain, his marriage to the Orleasian Empress would be a frickin disaster politically.

So Loghain was a traitorous SOB, but at least he had some reason to think Calian was betraying him and Fereldan.....Howe however was just Image IPB

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 12:34 .


#85
Dragon Age1103

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I didn't know he had plans to marry her( i can't blame him since Anora is a very cold person) but it is his duty to be faithful in his marriage & lead Ferelden no matter how much that painds him. Honor & his family name should be held above all else. Anyways that is really sad, I mean Maric was shaky on his road to becoming a true King...many had their doubts but he ended up being one of the best things to ever happen to Ferelden.

That simple bit of information tells so much of Cailan & Loghain along with their motives for a few things. I'm glad Cailan fell at Ostagar, he did enough to hurt his family name & Ferelden.

#86
Lotion Soronarr

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Dragon Age1103 wrote...
Yeah but with Loghain dead Alistair wouldn't have anyone to advise his armies. Being such a nice guy might get him far when it comes to how the public views him but it holds little to no value in making hard choices or strategic planning on the battle field.


So you're assuming Loghian is the only capablegeneral in the world?

#87
Lotion Soronarr

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Dragon Age1103 wrote...
cheating with an Orlesian Wh*** is far from being a good guy. I understand everything is cut throat, medieval world, most or all marriages are forced BUT I take cheating personal so due to that fact he can deserves to die. I realize that is very unforgiving & terrible to say but loghain treated or at least acknowledged him as a son. So perhaps if he wasn't paranoid about the Grey Warden's & Orlesians & if he didn't know Cailan cheated with some Orlesian Wh*** he would of defended his king at Ostagar. I hated to see Cailan die b/c his system did work & he was a great guy but when I found that out I forgave Loghain for a lot & could care less that we lost our King.


What w****?
It seems as tough Anora was barren, meaning as king he would have no heir. Apparenlty, Anora was also allright with his "dalliances" aside...and who knows if anora had any?

#88
Xandurpein

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And just for the record - Anora is a noblewoman and not a peasant - period. Her father was born a peasant, but elevated to nobility by Maric. Wars, especially wars of liberation, creates new nobility. While it's true that there can be bad blood between "old nobility" and "new nobility" Anora is a noblewoman and of a rich family at that.



I know others might think differently, but I think that everything in the game points at Anora being very capable of ruling on her own and have impressed even the Orlesian Empress of her capability. That doesn't mean that she isn't a cold and ruthless person too of course, but she knows her job and gets respected for it.


#89
earl of the north

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Why is Loghain regent anyway, the two main reasons for a regent usually are:

1. King or Queen are to young to rule (no heir so he cannot use that one).

2. King or Queen are mentally incompetent or impaired. (since Anora is widely respected he cannot use that one either)

I assume it was an attempt to prevent the bannorn from replacing her with a noble king from their ranks, but after her father is executed as a traitor, she seems to backed by the bannorn anyway so no need for him declaring himself regent at all.

Declaring himself regent, rather than just remaining Fereldan's first general makes him look guilty (even if you didn't know about his actions leading up to Ostagar).....also his ambassador to the dwarfs calling him King Loghain didn't help.

I've only once went with Alistar as solo ruler (Anora stabbed me in the back at the Landsmeet....silly girl), I usually marry him off to Anora because she's a hard nose b***h who will make sure he doesn't screw it up to badly.....as Alstair proves a royal heir can be produced elsewhere if Anora's unable to bear children.

I assumed Anora isn't noble because  Alstair turned down one of my characters saying the landsmeet wouldn't except another non-noble on the throne after Anora.

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:00 .


#90
Xandurpein

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earl of the north wrote...

Okay Cailan is a big a screw up as Loghain, his marriage to the Orleasian Empress would be a frickin disaster politically.


On that subject we are very much in agreement then.Image IPB

#91
Herr Uhl

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It seems as tough Anora was barren, meaning as king he would have no heir. Apparenlty, Anora was also allright with his "dalliances" aside...and who knows if anora had any?


What is "allright" to you? I thought she seemed pretty bitter about it, and had resigned to accepting that trait in him. And those "dalliances" were not to produce a heir, unless they wanted a bastard on the throne (cue Alastair).

But Anora has always been a cold-hearted female canine that has no love for anything but power and eating babies, right?

#92
earl of the north

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I actually quite like Anora, which is why along as she doesn't stab me in the back she usually keeps her throne.

#93
Solica

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The game doesn't give any clues at all, to that Cailan might have been a poor king.
Now I'm fairly convinced it is the Bioware writers' intention, that Cailan is to be cast as a not so very able regent. But they fail to give us any hard evidence to that effect, in game.
On the contrary, it seems to me they give plenty reason to suspect Cailan might be a good King:

Just consider Loghain's opinion of Cailan. Well we all know, even the Loghain fans, that Loghain's judgement is so abyssmally poor that he is, with almost 100% accuracy, always wrong. Ergo, Cailan is a great king because he 'must' also be wrong about Cailan.Image IPB

More seriously: Ferelden seem to have managed well enough during his reign, despite the attempts at manipulation by the Loghains. The worst damage that that very ambitious and treacherous peasant woman Anora and her disgusting father seem to have managed, up to the start of the game, is raising Howe in influence and power. And that is of course bad indeed. But one has to imagine that Cailan, even if he must have become wise and disillusioned regarding his wife by then, still trusted Loghain, for his previous involvement with his father. In fact we know this, by his exhibition of trust at Ostagar.
But ultimately, this and his infatuation with "glory" are the only visible fails by Cailan, and they cannot be considered great, as a personal defects, even though the consequences are great. Though, of course, a truly wise, and great king would have gotten rid of the Loghains, long before. ...And wouldn't have exposed himself on the battlefield.

Cailan's instincts regarding contacts with Orlais seem very sound and enlightened. Maybe it will also give him an opportunity to get rid of his horrible wife. In fact, his instincts regarding the battle at Ostagar are also rather sound, proving that he is potentially a much better general than Loghain. Only he doesn't trust himself as a general. He trusts Loghain. But a great general, great in the sense of Sun Tzu, would have had additional reinforcements from Orlais and Eamon before the battle.

This is one of the little facts that expose that Loghain really isn't any good general at all. He has been successful up to the point of Ostagar. But there, and after, events are far beyond such a small and inept man as Loghain. He is perceived as a great general, yes, due to previous events, by luck or set on the preparations by Maric. And he is able to inspire his soldiers to loyalty and faith. He is even a charismatic and good speaker, (something which apparently works on some gamers as well as his followers Image IPB). But all that alone doesn't make up a good general.

Clues to the opposite are prevalent in-game and pretty damning though. We all know and can agree on his judgement. A person with such terribly poor judgement can never be a good general. It's simply impossible. He can, conceivably, have his moments of success, due to sheer luck, or the fact that someone else (Maric) has provided the right background.

He completely fails to understand the most important principle that makes a great general: That victory in battle cannot be achieved on the field. On the contrary, he seems to rely entirely on his illusionary abilities to manage a battle to victory. That seem even to be the full extent of what he thinks a general really does. But a battle cannot be won in the field. It can only be lost in the field. So, really, he is trusting in his enemies to lose the battle! His reputation is founded on him being lucky, so far. Truly a poor general, potentionally a disastrous such.

For all the loyalty he inspires, he also fails when it comes to managing his men. His second in command, for example, is an unquestioning yes-sayer, a robotically obedient servant. A good general, never mind a great, would never have such a person close to him in command. Cauthrien, herself even, also considers her only role to be unquestioning and 100% loyal. This is a dysfunctional and badly mismanaged army. The legacy of Loghain's incompetence again.

A truly great general wins his battles long before the clash in the field. Before, is the only time you can truly win. Cailan's instincts there, true to his genes, are very sound. Unfortunately, he ends up trusting Loghain, rather than himself.

So to summarize: The game doesn't give enough evidence to conclude whether Cailan is a poor king or not. The developers seem to hint that he is supposed to be at least less than average. The events, in game play, seem to hint that he is in fact a rather decent regent with some faults (mainly trusting the Loghains), much just like his father, Maric, or his brother, Alistair.

Regarding Loghain: We all (fans & haters & indifferent) know beyond any doubt that Loghain is a complete 100% disaster, from the start, as attempting to be a regent. Nor can he be a success, regarding his lack of qualities. The man is simply conceited and rash passion, unenlighted and very narrowminded. He even fails to realize that his "beloved" Ferelden is the people who live there, not some concept of "independence" of a set of brightly colored banns on his treasured map. Does he even understand what independence truly is? Or the purpose of it? Has he even asked the question why his rule would be preferable to Orlais'? (not that Ferelden is in any danger of falling to Orlais, anyway)

As a general: I have not seen anyone, before, point out the fact that Loghain is also, (in the concept of Sun Tzu, at least, which I believe all experts still today agree is perfectly valid) a very poor general, despite the in-game evidence for that being so conclusive. But really, that conclusion shouldn't be a surprise really, given Loghain's personality. A man like Loghain simply can't be a good general.  ...Either. He's just a dumb peasant having risen to power and reputation, thanks to his passions, a war, Maric, and a good deal of luck.
I think this point well illustrate that you can't really use the prevailing opinions, of in-game society or persons, as hints to how to understand the "real" situation, in-game. Your player character has to come to that understanding him/herself.

Modifié par Solica, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:46 .


#94
earl of the north

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Interesting......

I'd say Loghain has proved in the past that he's a good tactical commander, but he seems to lack the abilty to be a good strategic commander.

He is surprising inept once he's in sole command of the situation, i'd say as a battle commander with an enemy in front of him he's fine but once he tries to deal with the situation strategically he has to depend on Howe, who only cares about Howe.

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:14 .


#95
Xandurpein

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earl of the north wrote...

Why is Loghain regent anyway, the two main reasons for a regent usually are:

1. King or Queen are to young to rule (no heir so he cannot use that one).

2. King or Queen are mentally incompetent or impaired. (since Anora is widely respected he cannot use that one either)

I assume it was an attempt to prevent the bannorn from replacing her with a noble king from their ranks, but after her father is executed as a traitor, she seems to backed by the bannorn anyway so no need for him declaring himself regent at all.

Declaring himself regent, rather than just remaining Fereldan's first general makes him look guilty (even if you didn't know about his actions leading up to Ostagar).....also his ambassador to the dwarfs calling him King Loghain didn't help.

I've only once went with Alistar as solo ruler (Anora stabbed me in the back at the Landsmeet....silly girl), I usually marry him off to Anora because she's a hard nose b***h who will make sure he doesn't screw it up to badly.....as Alstair proves a royal heir can be produced elsewhere if Anora's unable to bear children.

I assumed Anora isn't noble because  Alstair turned down one of my characters saying the landsmeet wouldn't except another non-noble on the throne after Anora.


I don't think it's been fully explained, but my guess is that Loghain convinces Anora to make him Regent to lead the armies in war. Anora would defer to Loghain on subjects of war, as she left that to Cailan. I took it to be that he was in effect made "Commander in chief", but that he more or less imposed martial law after that. What exactly is the role of a Regent in Fereldan is not explained, at least as I understand though.

#96
earl of the north

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Xandurpein wrote...

earl of the north wrote...

Why is Loghain regent anyway, the two main reasons for a regent usually are:

1. King or Queen are to young to rule (no heir so he cannot use that one).

2. King or Queen are mentally incompetent or impaired. (since Anora is widely respected he cannot use that one either)

I assume it was an attempt to prevent the bannorn from replacing her with a noble king from their ranks, but after her father is executed as a traitor, she seems to backed by the bannorn anyway so no need for him declaring himself regent at all.

Declaring himself regent, rather than just remaining Fereldan's first general makes him look guilty (even if you didn't know about his actions leading up to Ostagar).....also his ambassador to the dwarfs calling him King Loghain didn't help.

I've only once went with Alistar as solo ruler (Anora stabbed me in the back at the Landsmeet....silly girl), I usually marry him off to Anora because she's a hard nose b***h who will make sure he doesn't screw it up to badly.....as Alstair proves a royal heir can be produced elsewhere if Anora's unable to bear children.

I assumed Anora isn't noble because  Alstair turned down one of my characters saying the landsmeet wouldn't except another non-noble on the throne after Anora.


I don't think it's been fully explained, but my guess is that Loghain convinces Anora to make him Regent to lead the armies in war. Anora would defer to Loghain on subjects of war, as she left that to Cailan. I took it to be that he was in effect made "Commander in chief", but that he more or less imposed martial law after that. What exactly is the role of a Regent in Fereldan is not explained, at least as I understand though.


But wouldn't he already be leading the armies in war, as Fereldan's first general?

Regent (historically) makes Loghain king in all but name, which would automatically cause problems with the nobility, hence the attempted murder of Arl Eamon and the murder of the Couslands to reduce the voices of dissent before he takes control.

I don't have much time for Cailan or Loghain really, Anora is probably the best of the bunch as a ruler so Alstair generally ends up in a marriage of state or Anora rules alone.

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:22 .


#97
Herr Uhl

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earl of the north wrote...
...and the murder of the Couslands to reduce the voices of dissent before he takes control.


That was all Howes idea.

#98
earl of the north

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Herr Uhl wrote...

earl of the north wrote...
...and the murder of the Couslands to reduce the voices of dissent before he takes control.


That was all Howes idea.


Maybe, Howe certainly benefits.....but Loghain has to have a hand in it as well, the murder of a powerful noble family wouldn't have convinced the nobles that Loghain wasn't just seizing power.  It was more likely to cause civil war (after all who's next) rather than prevent one, which is what Loghain wants after all...inept as he is, he isn't trying to start a civil war. 

Removing the Couslands and Arl Eamon makes sense strategically, since it removes two of the main noble houses just before Ostagar, reducing the dissent from the nobles....with both of the these houses demanding answers about Ostagar, Loghain may not have even got the chance to name himself regent.

Modifié par earl of the north, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:32 .


#99
Xandurpein

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earl of the north wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

earl of the north wrote...
...and the murder of the Couslands to reduce the voices of dissent before he takes control.


That was all Howes idea.


Maybe, Howe certainly benefits......but Loghain has to have a hand in it as well, the murder of a powerful noble family wouldn't have convinced the nobles that Loghain wasn't just seizing power.  It was more likely to cause civil war (after all who's next) rather than prevent one, which is what Loghain wants after all...inept as he is, he isn't trying to start a civil war. 


David Gaider has explained that Howe killed the Couslands before he allied with Loghain, even if Loghain certainly knew about it when he allied himself with Howe.

#100
eddy204cherry

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I think you need to look at another way.Say he stays and helps with the battle.We win the battle and Duncan is able to convince everyone that it is a true blight.

Everyone is united, we have no resources off fighting other battles,towns like lothering could have been saved.

Loghain is a traitor who thirsted for power regardless of hid reasoning.