280 réponses à ce sujet

[RangerSG]

The "Anora oppressed the elves" thing annoys me. If you talk to Iona in the opening, she makes it clear that each noble is responsible for how they treat elves in their own lands. This is consistent with a feudal-style society. Anora interfering with the nobles rights in their own lands would bring nothing but trouble, It was the Arl who was responsible for the problems in Denerim, because the city is 'his' jurisdiction. Anora had nothing to do with Vaughan's actions. Blame Uriel if you think there's someone responsible. But if Anora gets the 'blame' for that, she should get the 'credit' for the treatment of elves in Highever and Bann Lorren lands as well.

[Xandurpein]

I think the "Anora opressed the elves" comes from the different endings. Anora's main flaw as ruler is that she is too focused on good administration and is not as good with the common people. If Anora is single ruler she will not do as much to improve the situation of the elves, which will spark elven riots eventually, she has to come down on.

I think it's ridiculous to equate this with saying that she opresses the elves, it's more like she is unable to look outside the mold of her society. Once there are riots Anora has to come down on it, any ruler has to really. Giving in to a mob is just to much of a bad precedent.

Alistair (who's mother is an elf) will do more for the elves, so there will be no riots, but will not do as much to improve the country in other ways (Anora bulids a university and improves learning, he doesn't).

The best result is Alistair and Anora, with a PC substituting for either if they can do it as well.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 janvier 2010 - 09:21 .

[RangerSG]

Perhaps, but I still would say it's the same issue. It's not "Anora" oppressing the elves. It's the local rulers. Sure, she's forced to order in the troops, but that's because once there's a revolt, she has no choice. The error belongs to the nobles who oppressed the elves, not Anora.



And we don't know Alistair's mother is an elf. That's speculation...I agree with it though

[Xandurpein]

RangerSG wrote...

Perhaps, but I still would say it's the same issue. It's not "Anora" oppressing the elves. It's the local rulers. Sure, she's forced to order in the troops, but that's because once there's a revolt, she has no choice. The error belongs to the nobles who oppressed the elves, not Anora.

And we don't know Alistair's mother is an elf. That's speculation...I agree with it though

I think it falls under the credo. "I hate Anora and think she is evil, consequently anything bad that happens on her watch is her fault and anything good that happens on her watch is to someone else's credit" that many on this forum subscribe too.

[RangerSG]

Xandurpein wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Perhaps, but I still would say it's the same issue. It's not "Anora" oppressing the elves. It's the local rulers. Sure, she's forced to order in the troops, but that's because once there's a revolt, she has no choice. The error belongs to the nobles who oppressed the elves, not Anora.

And we don't know Alistair's mother is an elf. That's speculation...I agree with it though

I think it falls under the credo. "I hate Anora and think she is evil, consequently anything bad that happens on her watch is her fault and anything good that happens on her watch is to someone else's credit" that many on this forum subscribe too.

*nods* She backstabs the PC once to save her own skin. Then she *gasps* really doesn't want to see her father killed if there's a choice. So she must be evil.

Do I like those choices she makes? nope. But they hardly define her as eeeevil. My goodness, some people talk like she's a bigger villain than The Archdemon, Howe, Vaughan and Loghain combined.

[Xandurpein]

RangerSG wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Perhaps, but I still would say it's the same issue. It's not "Anora" oppressing the elves. It's the local rulers. Sure, she's forced to order in the troops, but that's because once there's a revolt, she has no choice. The error belongs to the nobles who oppressed the elves, not Anora.

And we don't know Alistair's mother is an elf. That's speculation...I agree with it though

I think it falls under the credo. "I hate Anora and think she is evil, consequently anything bad that happens on her watch is her fault and anything good that happens on her watch is to someone else's credit" that many on this forum subscribe too.

*nods* She backstabs the PC once to save her own skin. Then she *gasps* really doesn't want to see her father killed if there's a choice. So she must be evil.

Do I like those choices she makes? nope. But they hardly define her as eeeevil. My goodness, some people talk like she's a bigger villain than The Archdemon, Howe, Vaughan and Loghain combined.

You forget the greatest evil deed of all, she can marry Alistair who those poor mages and elves can't have...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I hardly consider Anora evil. A coniving, manipulative ****, for certain, but so what? She's a politician. A leader. That's what they are supposed to be like. And she does a pretty good job, too.



Personally, I like having her as the queen, alone. Spreading the joys of matriarchy in Thedas, one nation/religion at a time (Orlais, The Chantry, Orazammar after Branka invades and takes over, ect).



We need a union of female dominion to **** slap the qunari idjits back to whatever island hole they came from.

[Vicious]

Leliana sez something completely different...

That she does and it's a good instance of the game not getting it's story straight [since we can't go to Orlais to check for ourselves.] Anora's handmaiden is an escaped slave as an example. Given that the 'common humans' have few rights and none against Chevaliers, I would side with the escaped slave's side of things: Sucks to be a common human, sucks way more to be a common elf.

Him being constantly confident in victory - is that shortsightednes and bravado, or good acting and morale boosting?

I can give you this one. Like I said I beleive he was a good warrior and had his heart in the right place, if nothing else.

[Demx]

Cailan's heart was in the right place, but he kinda got obsessed with making his battle strategies look as epic as the stories told about the Grey Wardens from the past. Or so I gather.

[Realmzmaster]

Anora is not directly oppressing the elves, but the oppression exists because she allows it to continue. The Arl could have been replaced just as easy as Loghain did it with Howe. If Anora truly wanted to end the oppression she could send her troops in just as easily as she did in suppressing the riots.

But she played to the status quo, not wanting to upset it. The elves were considered second class citizens and therefore did not have the same rights as first class citizens. Far be it for Anora to rock that boat.

A great ruler is suppose to improve the lot of all of his/her subjects not just the one's that can keep you in power. A great ruler initates change in the social structure for the better. It takes a great ruler with vision to change a nation.

Anora is not evil, but what good is having power if you use it only to maintain the status quo. Anora builds a university and improves learning, but for who? Do the elves get to go to this university? Alistair at least improves the lot of the city elves as a whole.

Anora may be the better adminstrator, but that does not make for a great ruler. More like a caretaker who puts in a few improvements that benefit some, but not all.

[RangerSG]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Anora is not directly oppressing the elves, but the oppression exists because she allows it to continue. The Arl could have been replaced just as easy as Loghain did it with Howe. If Anora truly wanted to end the oppression she could send her troops in just as easily as she did in suppressing the riots.
But she played to the status quo, not wanting to upset it. The elves were considered second class citizens and therefore did not have the same rights as first class citizens. Far be it for Anora to rock that boat.
A great ruler is suppose to improve the lot of all of his/her subjects not just the one's that can keep you in power. A great ruler initates change in the social structure for the better. It takes a great ruler with vision to change a nation.
Anora is not evil, but what good is having power if you use it only to maintain the status quo. Anora builds a university and improves learning, but for who? Do the elves get to go to this university? Alistair at least improves the lot of the city elves as a whole.
Anora may be the better adminstrator, but that does not make for a great ruler. More like a caretaker who puts in a few improvements that benefit some, but not all.

"She" didn't allow it to continue. The entire socieity "allowed" it to together.

And no, the Arl could 'not' have been replaced just as easily as Howe replaced the old Arl...
1) You make the error of assuming that Loghain approved of Howe's actions. DG has said Loghain had no prior knowledge.
2) Howe was able to do what he did specifically because of the fog of war. That did not exist at any time with Queen Anora.

And no, there's nothing in the epilogue that says she was "just keeping the status quo." Peasants didn't get a whole lot better in Queen Elizabeth's reign. But she's considered a great queen. Why?

[SusanStoHelit]

The Gay Warden wrote...

There.

Thank you. I appreciate it for 2 reasons.

1) It makes my Asperger's happy.

2) When people do a search trying to find something - they can't if it's misspelt. I'd really like everyone to be very careful with titles (doesn't matter so much in the post itself) ensuring that things are spelled correctly, particularly names and places. Someone make's a thread with "Morrgian" or "Logian" - is it any wonder a search doesn't find it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Realmzmaster wrote...
A great ruler is suppose to improve the lot of all of his/her subjects not just the one's that can keep you in power. A great ruler initates change in the social structure for the better.

I think you will be hard pressed to find any leader who was able to please everyone. All great leaders improve the lot ofthe majority of their subjetcs, but certainly not everyone. 
Anora is improving Ferelden for the best on the whole, for the majority of people. What happens to the elves, though perhaps sad, is not going to change the fact that Ferelden is improving.
  

[Emperor Iaius I]

Agreed. Why should the elves be tended to, anyway? They make for good servants, and are provided food and housing as a result. They deserve much less for rising up against humanity alongside that witch Andraste.



I was unaware that Anora would put down an elven uprising. This changes this for me: she may be of peasant stock, but perhaps she does have greatness in her after all.

[Realmzmaster]

@RangerSG

Loghain did approve. Loghain, Howe and Ser Cauthrien came to Arl Eamon's estate to talk him out of his rash action. Howe is introduce as the new arl of Denerim. Howe states that the regent is very generous in rewarding his supporters after which the PC gets to call him a bootlicker. Even if it is after the fact Loghain allowed Howe to continue in that position. Also the royal place is in Denerim. There is no way Loghain could not have known about it.

But a great ruler can initate change. Anora could have initated that change. Alistair did according to some of epilogues. A nation will follow its ruler. But it takes guts and vision to stand up and change what is wrong. It is easy to improve the status of the majority at the expense of the minority. The real accomplishment is elevating both at the same time.

There are riots in alienage because of the status quo and worsening conditions. By ignoring a segement of the population you create fertile ground for rebellion.

Anora has no problem sending in the troops to crush it. A little attention and concessions could avert the problem.

Leadership can shape society, be shaped by it or both. Great leaders take society in a new hopefully better direction.

I am not saying you can please everyone, but what is worse to attempt and fail or never to attempt at all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Realmzmaster wrote...
I am not saying you can please everyone, but what is worse to attempt and fail or never to attempt at all.

To attempt and fail.

[RangerSG]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@RangerSG
Loghain did approve. Loghain, Howe and Ser Cauthrien came to Arl Eamon's estate to talk him out of his rash action. Howe is introduce as the new arl of Denerim. Howe states that the regent is very generous in rewarding his supporters after which the PC gets to call him a bootlicker. Even if it is after the fact Loghain allowed Howe to continue in that position. Also the royal place is in Denerim. There is no way Loghain could not have known about it.
But a great ruler can initate change. Anora could have initated that change. Alistair did according to some of epilogues. A nation will follow its ruler. But it takes guts and vision to stand up and change what is wrong. It is easy to improve the status of the majority at the expense of the minority. The real accomplishment is elevating both at the same time.
There are riots in alienage because of the status quo and worsening conditions. By ignoring a segement of the population you create fertile ground for rebellion.
Anora has no problem sending in the troops to crush it. A little attention and concessions could avert the problem.
Leadership can shape society, be shaped by it or both. Great leaders take society in a new hopefully better direction.
I am not saying you can please everyone, but what is worse to attempt and fail or never to attempt at all.

No, Loghain did not "approve" of Howe's actions. DG said he accepted it after the fact. That's the VoG. It's not debatable. Howe officially did the Cousland massacre 'on his own' and presented it to Loghain fait accompli.

[Sylrien]

I was just wondering...



I've seen the informal letter between Cailan and the Empress of Orlais. However, do we have a legitimate confirmation he was planning on marrying her? Or was sleeping around with her?



In fact, the way it's been described to me, only the NPCS in your party - noticeably Loghain the Paranoid Ferelden and Wynne, the only other member to remember Orlesian Occupation hazard that hypothesis, and are duly distressed by its implications.



This doesn't mean it's fact. It means it's a possibility. Since Bioware's given us comlpicated, FLAWED characters, it is also a possibility that Wynne and Loghain are overreacting.



Maybe Cailan did his own machinations towards Pro-Orlesian relationship with Orlais. I imagine Anora, the Great Administrator, would be strictly anti-Orlais as her father would be. (Seeing as that she has an escaped Orlesian slave as a servant, I wouldn't put it past her to parrot the elf around to show how much better she is than the Orlesians. It's a great PR move.)



So. We have a King who is possibly underneath the thumb of anti-Orlesians, who is trying to secure his own power independant of Loghain and ANora. Where could he turn to? Eamon, who was advising that he get another wife, despite the great PR move that was marrying Anora, and the Empress of Orlais, the leader of a feared power who would be in direct opposition with Loghain and his followers.



Maybe we need to rename this thread: Anora made a decent administrator and a horrible Queen.

But if you want to drink the Loghain kool-aid....

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Sylrien. We have to take that letter into context.
1rst letter: Orlesian assitance in the war.
2nd letter: Eammon telling Cailan that he needs to marry and produce an heir.
3rd letter: Cailan and Celene talking informally and in a too friendly manner.

While it's not confirmed that they are going to marry, it's most probably the case.

Anora made a decent administrator and a horrible Queen

Why? As far as we know, Anora was actually popular.
She makes an excellent Queen. Granted, Celene I is much better (more manipulative). But Anora is still a good Queen. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:31 .

[ReubenLiew]

That orlesian hussy!

[Ulicus]

RangerSG wrote...

No, Loghain did not "approve" of Howe's actions. DG said he accepted it after the fact. That's the VoG. It's not debatable. Howe officially did the Cousland massacre 'on his own' and presented it to Loghain fait accompli.

David Gaider wrote in The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir...

I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

I see DG's words as definitive, sure, but I'd be reluctant to appeal to the "VoG defence" given the above.

Modifié par Ulicus, 25 janvier 2010 - 01:01 .

[Sylrien]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Sylrien. We have to take that letter into context.
1rst letter: Orlesian assitance in the war.

The Grey Wardens in Ferelden seem to barely number an entire unit. On the otherhand, we have hundreds of Grey Wardens in Orlais alonf with a unified fighting force. Against what might potentially be a Blight. You do remember what a Blight was, right? Something that sees no difference in Orlesian or Ferelden meat? I imagine even mentioning a Blight- as before, a mlitary entanglement that require the armies of multiple nations to put down- would be cause for asking for assistance. See also: Eamon sending soldiers, Cousland and Howe sending soldiers.

2nd letter: Eammon telling Cailan that he needs to marry and produce an heir.

Implication, yes. However, we already know Cailan and Loghain were arguing about the queen. While it is easy to jump on the theory that this automatically means Calian+Celene, I don't believe this means that they will marry unless I see it in writing. A possibility, but not set in stone given any context beside Loghain's ravings.

3rd letter: Cailan and Celene talking informally and in a too friendly manner.

This could also mean that Cailan and Celene are discussing a formal alliance. Celene coming to Ferelden would be a HUGE political coup for Cailan. He has the deference of the leader of the greatest political enemy of Ferelden. First of all, do we know if there was ever a formal treaty or truce between Ferelden and Orlais? Hell, this could be a formal apology. And again, the fostering of any relationship between Orlais and Ferelden means

1. An end to generations, eighty years of hostility.
2. A formal truce or treaty, whether by marriage or no, again, with the Empress coming to Ferelden? It's a sign of trust, acceptance, and again, deference.

While it's not confirmed that they are going to marry, it's most probably the case.

Anora made a decent administrator and a horrible Queen

Why? As far as we know, Anora was actually popular.
She makes an excellent Queen. Granted, Celene I is much better (more manipulative). But Anora is still a good Queen. 

Just as likely the empress of Orlais is secretly planning the invasion of Ferelden. Also, I think that all the posts above mine give evidence that Anora is a good administrator, and not a queen. Being a monarch means much more than being handy with paperwork and protocols. It's definitely one of the things needed, but you also need the ability to inspire, you also need the ability to be bold and brave.

This is why Cailan making peace with the Orlesians in whatever form is a brilliant move that only a king/monarch could do. This is why Alistair brokering an alliance with the dwarves, giving the Dalish their own lands, and giving alienages representation in the Landsmeet makes him a good king.  Without Alistair or someone else tempering Anora's.....adminstrations, we get a crackdown on elven rights because of a food riot. A *food* riot.

Good administrator maybe, but hardly queenly material.

And I'm going on as much evidence for her being a bad queen as there is for Cailan being a good king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylrien wrote...

2nd letter: Eammon telling Cailan that he needs to marry and produce an heir.

Implication, yes. However, we already know Cailan and Loghain were arguing about the queen. While it is easy to jump on the theory that this automatically means Calian+Celene, I don't believe this means that they will marry unless I see it in writing. A possibility, but not set in stone given any context beside Loghain's ravings.

I didn't say it automatically means that Cailan and Celene are getting married. I said it's most probably the case.

3rd letter: Cailan and Celene talking informally and in a too friendly manner.

This could also mean that Cailan and Celene are discussing a formal alliance. Celene coming to Ferelden would be a HUGE political coup for Cailan. He has the deference of the leader of the greatest political enemy of Ferelden. First of all, do we know if there was ever a formal treaty or truce between Ferelden and Orlais? Hell, this could be a formal apology. And again, the fostering of any relationship between Orlais and Ferelden means 

No ruler ever addresses the other by the name, in such a familiar way. In the first letter, Celene addressed Cailan by his title. In the third, after the implications of the 2nd letter, she addresses him by name. Rulers never do that, even when they were of the same dynasty. That hints heavily that they are more than just political allies.

 Being a monarch means much more than being handy with paperwork and protocols. It's definitely one of the things needed, but you also need the ability to inspire, you also need the ability to be bold and brave.

As I said, she is popular and mostly everyone loves her. So she does inspire, without being an idiot.  

As for the Orlais Ferelden issue. If Cailan was attempting to mend ties only, then yes, that would be acceptable. If he was planning to marry Celene on the otherhand, which is probably the case, then he proves he is an idiot.

Orlais:
- A superpower
- More population
- Better military
- loyal nobility
- Richer
- Religiously very influencial
- Has a ruler like Celene I (compared to Catherine the Great)

Ferelden:
- backwater nation
- less population
- average military at best, mediocre perhaps.
- Nobility that are barely united together
- poor. No signs of great wealth.
- Religiously not so important (the unrs were not discovered at that time).
- Has a king like Cailan, who was easily manipulated by Anora. What do you think Celene (described as being like Catherine the Great) can do?

It doesn't take a genius to know that a unification of the Orlesian / Ferelden Crown is going to result into the annexation of Ferelden by Orlais (whether Celene wanted it or not). Add the fact that the Orlesian army was going to be there, after saving Ferelden from the blight, and you have everythign going perfectly for the re-invasion of Ferelden by Orlais, via different means.

I don't see how anyone could see this as a good idea, unless they are Orlesian sympathisers.

If Cailan on the otherhand plans to marry an Orlesian nobility, then that would have been slightly different. But Celene? That's a joke.

EDIT: And Anora does ally with the dwarves (if it's Bhelen ruling) and the dalish (if Zathrian dies). So what's your point?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2010 - 01:24 .

[supernovashadow]

Sylrien wrote...

2nd letter: Eammon telling Cailan that he needs to marry and produce an heir.

Implication, yes. However, we already know Cailan and Loghain were arguing about the queen. While it is easy to jump on the theory that this automatically means Calian+Celene, I don't believe this means that they will marry unless I see it in writing. A possibility, but not set in stone given any context beside Loghain's ravings.

3rd letter: Cailan and Celene talking informally and in a too friendly manner.

This could also mean that Cailan and Celene are discussing a formal alliance. Celene coming to Ferelden would be a HUGE political coup for Cailan. He has the deference of the leader of the greatest political enemy of Ferelden. First of all, do we know if there was ever a formal treaty or truce between Ferelden and Orlais? Hell, this could be a formal apology. And again, the fostering of any relationship between Orlais and Ferelden means

1. An end to generations, eighty years of hostility.
2. A formal truce or treaty, whether by marriage or no, again, with the Empress coming to Ferelden? It's a sign of trust, acceptance, and again, deference.

I agree, the marriage of Cailan and Celene is only one possibility of what is going on behind those letters.  I played through RTO two times, one with Alistair and Wynne and once with Loghain and dog but didn't get anyone mentioning marriage. 

[Sylrien]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Orlais:
- A superpower
- More population
- Better military
- loyal nobility
- Richer
- Religiously very influencial
- Has a ruler like Celene I (compared to Catherine the Great)

Ferelden:
- backwater nation
- less population
- average military at best, mediocre perhaps.
- Nobility that are barely united together
- poor. No signs of great wealth.
- Religiously not so important (the unrs were not discovered at that time).
- Has a king like Cailan, who was easily manipulated by Anora. What do you think Celene (described as being like Catherine the Great) can do?

It doesn't take a genius to know that a unification of the Orlesian / Ferelden Crown is going to result into the annexation of Ferelden by Orlais (whether Celene wanted it or not). Add the fact that the Orlesian army was going to be there, after saving Ferelden from the blight, and you have everythign going perfectly for the re-invasion of Ferelden by Orlais, in different meants.

So Ferelden would have *everything* to gain from an alliance with Orlais? That even *unification* producing an heir that be a figurehead for mending years of past hatred could only mean Ferelden's prosperity?