71 réponses à ce sujet

[kevL]

first result:

- put a suit of Leather on the ground.
- assign DR 50/bludgeoning to the suit in properties, Damage Reductions
- unhandled exception

 

 

second result:

- see above.

[Lance Botelle]

you shouldn't have to loop GetItemHasItemProperty()

the loop for that is likely in the hard-code. Just call it on an item outright.


i got my finger caught in a debugger hehe. Still, your script there should show the IPs ... although, removing the found-IPs will muck the iterator -- not so much as to give false returns AFAICT, but the call should be straight, no loops i believe.


ok i got my finger out long enough to open the TS.

Hi KevL,

Yes, the script is a little "sloppy" as it was built up as I added tests ... you know what it's like. However, It does "basically" work good enough to give the feedback required ... and by the second usage, there is only the DR IP to worry about and so should not break if it got that far anyway.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Lance Botelle]

first result:

- put a suit of Leather on the ground.
- assign DR 50/bludgeoning to the suit in properties, Damage Reductions
- unhandled exception
 
 
second result:
- see above.

Aargh!

Don't you hate it when this sort of things happens!

OK, I guess I will have to update my list to say that TOOLSET DR does not work when applied to items! Doh!
 
UPDATE: I *DID* manage to get DR to work on items from the toolset setting, for items, including skins.

I had checked creatures (where I am fairly certain I do recall it working) and had not taken my test to items at this stage because I moved onto applying DR via scripting instead.

I guess this would also explain *WHY* we need to find a solution to apply DR for player's PCs .... as it is from that side it is broken! That brings me back to my potential solution (if the DR can be added to PCs OK that is) of identifying a potential DR item on a PC and applying (or removing) the EffectDamageReduction to the PC just prior to an attack taking place, based on the attacking weapon type.

And a quick test tends shows this IS POSSIBLE! (I made a false report a moment ago!)

And my goblin is quite smart ... He had a spear, scimitar and a club. He started with a spear, but when he realised that was not hurting me, he switched to a club and started to do damage. The goblin effectively swaps to the weapon that does the most damage, which means if I have the B DR effect (which means B weapons are the ones that get through), he switches to a B weapon (don't forget that the DR application logic is reversed as I see it). When I switched to P DR, he switched to his spear to carry on the combat ...and when I switched to S, he got out his scimitar to continue the combat! Yeh!

As I say though, that's all fine and dandy, but UNFAIR because having any ONE DR effect, means you actually have TWO on you. Therefore, my kludge detect code needs to be implemented to keep a PC to having only a SINGLE DR type.



Cheers,
Lance.

EDIT: FINDINGS TO DATE:

EffectDamageResistance: Cannot use this function to add *ANY* DR reduction.
ItemPropertyDamageReduction: Have not been successful in adding DR to skin or armour items.
EffectDamageReduction: Have only be successful in adding a *pair* of DR and not one by itself. (Use IP_CONST_XXX and reverse logic.)
SET VIA TOOLSET PRIOR PLAY - CREATURES ONLY (NOT ITEMS) Appears to work if you bear weapon corrections into account (See next). 
 
UPDATE: I got DR to work on both a creature skin (for monster) and a set of armour (for the PC).

The Morningstar is BLUDGEONING only (TLK 5412 NEEDS CORRECTING) and that the Longsword is both SLASHING AND PIERCING! Also SLASHING & PIERCING: Bastard Sword, Halberd, Katana, Scythe. (Total five weapons.) Therefore, Longsword (TLK 5417), Bastard Sword (TLK 5434) and Katana (TLK 5423) need descriptor correction.

[kevL]

3rd result:

- put a suit of Leather on the ground.
- load game and console a script on it
    - scripts says assign:

itemproperty ip = ItemPropertyDamageReduction(50, IP_CONST_DAMAGETYPE_BLUDGEONING, 0, DR_TYPE_DMGTYPE);
AddItemProperty(DURATION_TYPE_PERMANENT, ip, oItem);

- Examine says nada.
    - scripted test for ip says nada.

[Lance Botelle]

3rd result:

- put a suit of Leather on the ground.
- load game and console a script on it
    - scripts says assign:

itemproperty ip = ItemPropertyDamageReduction(50, IP_CONST_DAMAGETYPE_BLUDGEONING, 0, DR_TYPE_DMGTYPE);
AddItemProperty(DURATION_TYPE_PERMANENT, ip, oItem);

- Examine says nada.
    - scripted test for ip says nada.

Hi KevL,

Your scripting test confirms my own results ... However, did you see my post just before yours .... It shows a PC with DR on them using scripting, which may suggest there *is* a way to apply the effect by testing variables on an items and manually scripting the effect using EffectDamageReduction .... However, to keep it *fair* you would need to do the "quick testing" of weapon type to determine whether to have the DR "active" or not due to the double DR setting the EffectDamageReduction function does.

If, however, you can find a way to apply only a SINGLE DR effect , then that would resolve having to apply the kludge in the code.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Loki_999]

Sorry for delayed response. Monitor died this morning and then had a busy day.

 

Let me reiterate, applying damage reduction to an item via item properties (even via toolset) is borked.  Applying using the Damage Reductions property i believe always works, but that is not something that can be affected via itemproperties - it is a separate property of items which cannot be affected by script.

 

Applying DR effects to characters (not items, ie: ApplyEffectToObject - where object is the equipping character, not the item), thanks to your info Lance, it seems that the results now fall into line with what they should be.  The only downside to applying DR effects to character is that the effects are AND'd not OR'd, at least that is how it seems to me. And using IP_CONST values works as a single DR effect, not double.

 

Not sure what you don't understand about my suggestion to have DR apply on equipping items using the on_equip and on_unequip events.

[Lance Botelle]

Sorry for delayed response. Monitor died this morning and then had a busy day.
 
Let me reiterate, applying damage reduction to an item via item properties (even via toolset) is borked.  Applying using the Damage Reductions property i believe always works, but that is not something that can be affected via itemproperties - it is a separate property of items which cannot be affected by script.
 
Applying DR effects to characters (not items, ie: ApplyEffectToObject - where object is the equipping character, not the item), thanks to your info Lance, it seems that the results now fall into line with what they should be.  The only downside to applying DR effects to character is that the effects are AND'd not OR'd, at least that is how it seems to me. And using IP_CONST values works as a single DR effect, not double.
 
Not sure what you don't understand about my suggestion to have DR apply on equipping items using the on_equip and on_unequip events.

Hi Loki_999,

(Sorry to hear about your monitor.)

With reference to the underlined part above, have you tested this?
 
i.e. When you say, "And using IP_CONST values works as a single DR effect, not double." I have NOT been able to confirm this.
 
For instance, if you use the following line:

eDR = EffectDamageReduction(5, IP_CONST_DAMAGETYPE_BLUDGEONING, 0, DR_TYPE_DMGTYPE);

Your results will be that the creature with this effect has BOTH PIERCING and SLASHING DR attached to them!
 
Put it another way: How can you make it so a creature has DR 5 versus bludgeoning weapons ONLY (via scripting that is)?

Test it and see the results ... and let me know ... or if I have misunderstood you.
 
EDIT: Of course, some of the problem may be due to the language we are using to describe the resultant effect. In PnP D&D (where I am from), the language used was like this: "A creature has DR 5 v Bludgeoning damage." This meant a creature ignored the first five points of any damage caused by a bludgeoning weapon. HOWEVER, it may be that in your usage, you mean that, "A creature has DR 5 versus ALL attack types, UNLESS struck by a bludgeoning weapon". That may explain the apparent illogical behaviour of the way this effect is used.
 
Out of interest, if you use the following line:-

eDR = EffectDamageReduction(5, GMATERIAL_METAL_COLD_IRON, 0, DR_TYPE_GMATERIAL);

Does this mean that the creature has DR 5 versus *absolutely everything* EXCEPT COLD IRON weapons?

 

EDIT: If this is the case, then that would make for a *very* powerful effect. i.e. Having one or two DR against certain things is one thing, but if it means DR versus *everything* except the type stated, then that would be exceptionally powerful.

AND, one more question: In my first line of code, does the creature who can "only" be hit by bludgeoning weapons, have the same DR versus a magic +1 long sword (which does only piercing and slashing damage)? I ask because I do not know. It may be that I need to re-apply my logic for this function.

Cheers,
Lance.

[kevL]

Out of interest, if you use the following line:-

eDR = EffectDamageReduction(5, GMATERIAL_METAL_COLD_IRON, 0, DR_TYPE_GMATERIAL);

Does this mean that the creature has DR 5 versus *absolutely everything* EXCEPT COLD IRON weapons?
 
EDIT: If this is the case, then that would make for a *very* powerful effect. i.e. Having one or two DR against certain things is one thing, but if it means DR versus *everything* except the type stated, then that would be exceptionally powerful.

yes. Here's the tip that appears in the TS when "Damage Reductions" (item Property) is clicked on:

Defines the damage reductions the item possesses. The number indicates the amount of damage reduced by the item from incoming attacks. The material after the slash indicates the types of weapons that ignore this reduction and hit for full damage.


( now i remember making Archer's Belts with 5/bludgeoning OR 5/slashing ... but that was in the TS, not scripted )

note: "absolutely everything" meaning all physical attacks, yes I believe so.

In which case the inability to script an OR is kinda bogus :\_~

[Loki_999]

AH! Yes, you misunderstood game engine terminology.  DR X/Damage Type means that only that damage type can bypass the DR.

 

You see this with Stoneskin spell for example. The DR applied is DR_TYPEGMATERIAL -> GMATERIAL_TYPE_ADAMANTINE - meaning only adamantine weapons bypass the DR.

 

Also, the whole Magic Power thing was a bit of a carry over from NWN1, where DR was only based on the + value of weapons.  I think you can use this though to give things an effective DR type of ALL by giving MAGIC_POWER_20 or whatever the constant is called, because there are no +20 weapons in game (one would hope!).

[Dann-J]

The sword of Gith in MotB has the most powerful enhancement level in the game (+10). You can craft up to +8 in MotB.  I think in the OC you'll be lucky to find anything better than +6 (the rift hammer). So +20 would certainly do the trick.

 

I wonder if you can create DR verses negative enhancement bonuses (ie. enhancement penalties)? I've got rusty weapons and armour in a module I'm working on that have a -1 enhancement penalty (although a bottle of shinewater will restore them). It might be interesting to have a celestial being that is immune to the most powerful magical weapons, but is vulnerable to the lowliest of rusty weapons. Like a rusty old hammer from Uncle Fralin's tool shed.

[Lance Botelle]

yes. Here's the tip that appears in the TS when "Damage Reductions" (item Property) is clicked on:

Defines the damage reductions the item possesses. The number indicates the amount of damage reduced by the item from incoming attacks. The material after the slash indicates the types of weapons that ignore this reduction and hit for full damage.


( now i remember making Archer's Belts with 5/bludgeoning OR 5/slashing ... but that was in the TS, not scripted )

note: "absolutely everything" meaning all physical attacks, yes I believe so.

In which case the inability to script an OR is kinda bogus :\_~

Hi KevL,

Sorry, I nearly missed your post.

The "inconsistency" of application between toolset and scripting added a level of confusion for me then. (Use of OR logic?) That said, it would suggest that the "scripted version" (I would have thought) should be reserved very much for very special circumstances. e.g. A monster known to only be harmed by weapons of silver. I say this, because I think if the same degree of speciality in what can harm a creature is applied to a PC, then I believe that would imbalance the game.

Now, if there were magic items that gave the kind of DR like the Archer's Belt ... As far as I recall, they worked as I initially thought the notation meant. i.e. In your example above, 5/bludgeoning meant the PC was protected against the first 5 points of bludgeoning damage they received per attack. This kind of DR, I can just about accept as a potential protective device for a PC, as it seems reasonably well balanced to me. If, on the other hand, the PC found a belt that worked with the "opposite logic", and said something like 5 DR unless Adamantine used, then that would seem far too powerful to apply to a PC to me. Or rather, have in a campaign environment ... period.

For a special monster ... yes ... for a PC ... no. That's my gut feeling anyway.
 

AH! Yes, you misunderstood game engine terminology.  DR X/Damage Type means that only that damage type can bypass the DR.
 
You see this with Stoneskin spell for example. The DR applied is DR_TYPEGMATERIAL -> GMATERIAL_TYPE_ADAMANTINE - meaning only adamantine weapons bypass the DR.
 
Also, the whole Magic Power thing was a bit of a carry over from NWN1, where DR was only based on the + value of weapons.  I think you can use this though to give things an effective DR type of ALL by giving MAGIC_POWER_20 or whatever the constant is called, because there are no +20 weapons in game (one would hope!).

Hi Loki_999,

As I say then, that would make DR an exceptionally powerful effect if it cannot easily be limited to one type to "reduce" against. That said, I suppose it is more of a "monster" trait than a PC trait. I can see great care would be needed to provide magic items to PCs that have this kind of effect, as it could make them very quickly easily protected. Maybe, an item that worked temporarily rather than permanently. e.g. Ten rounds a day or something ....  
 

The sword of Gith in MotB has the most powerful enhancement level in the game (+10). You can craft up to +8 in MotB.  I think in the OC you'll be lucky to find anything better than +6 (the rift hammer). So +20 would certainly do the trick.
 
I wonder if you can create DR verses negative enhancement bonuses (ie. enhancement penalties)? I've got rusty weapons and armour in a module I'm working on that have a -1 enhancement penalty (although a bottle of shinewater will restore them). It might be interesting to have a celestial being that is immune to the most powerful magical weapons, but is vulnerable to the lowliest of rusty weapons. Like a rusty old hammer from Uncle Fralin's tool shed.

Hi DannJ,

My head is being completely messed up now ....

Anyway, I think the closest you might be able to get is IP_CONST_DAMAGETYPE_SUBDUAL. Not negative exactly, but certainly damage that is not supposed to "kill". That said, I have no idea how to work with subdual damage, or even if that constant works as it implies.

Cheers all,
Lance.

[kevL]

in NwN there are the venerable Archer's/Swordsman's/Brawler's Belts. They grant Resist 5/- vs. Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning, respective.

but that was before this mess. no pt going further into it, so here's a pic (yes they work as you recall, Lance, and yes the stock NwN2 versions of these belts are borked)


hence they now need to be custom made using OR logic : for Archer's Belt, Bludgeoning OR Slashing gets blocked past*.

 

 

 

 

*doh.

[Lance Botelle]

in NwN there are the venerable Archer's/Swordsman's/Brawler's Belts. They grant Resist 5/- vs. Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning, respective.

but that was before this mess. no pt going further into it, so here's a pic (yes they work as you recall, Lance, and yes the stock NwN2 versions of these belts are borked)


hence they now need to be custom made using OR logic : for Archer's Belt, Bludgeoning OR Slashing gets blocked.

Hi KevL,

EDIT: Good to hear my memory was correct regarding how I thought DR was presented previously.

I thought we concluded that adding DR to *items* via the toolset did NOT work. However, after reading the above, I tried adding the DR to a belt *again* and it did work! Now, the only difference (as far as I recall) was that my last test for toolset DR addition was on a SKIN and ARMOUR. (I will test these again to check my sanity.)

CHECKED:

1) CREATURE SKIN and DR *DID* work! i.e. 5/Bludgeoning on SKIN gives 5 DR vs SLASHING and PIERCING for creature.
2) LEATHER ARMOUR and DR *DID* work! i.e. 5/Bludgeoning on ARMOUR gives 5 DR vs SLASHING and PIERCING for PC.

Can you confirm what you mean does or does not work when applying DR to items (specific or otherwise) ...

 

Actually, the worse thing about making a Archer's Belt using the "OR" parameter is that it's description doesn't display very well when examined *. And I notice (with my own scripts) that it does NOT count the DR as an added property (same as in previous tests).

 

* Does anybody know if or how one can access what the game displays here? The reason I ask is that we could use the DamageResistance effect to add the description instead (in theory), which would also count as an added effect, where DR is not recognised. EDIT: Although DResistance might cause other feedback issues.

 

EDIT: can anybody confirm what the Damage Reduction item property (90) does? I applied it to a belt and equipped the belt. The belt successfully recognises itself as having a single item property (DR) and says that it has Damage Reduction (5) - I used a setting of 5 - However, this appears to be a Damage Reduction versus everything on the surface of things, but I don't know what that includes ... i.e. Just physical damage or others (like elemental damage) as well?

 

EDIT: I found that IMMUNITY DAMAGE TYPE works as a good substitute for applying a "DR type" reduction as a single damage type. I think I will work with that one for ease ... and in game presentation.  I think they would work better on those belts as well. The examine description would look better/clearer at least.

Many Thanks,
Lance.

[kevL]

1) CREATURE SKIN and DR *DID* work! i.e. 5/Bludgeoning on SKIN gives 5 DR vs SLASHING and PIERCING for creature.
2) LEATHER ARMOUR and DR *DID* work! i.e. 5/Bludgeoning on ARMOUR gives 5 DR vs SLASHING and PIERCING for PC.

Can you confirm what you mean does or does not work when applying DR to items (specific or otherwise) ...

in the Toolset i got an unhandled exception twice and so closed the ts. It has worked in the past but since it's not a priority for me, atm .....
otoh, trying to script an itempropery DamageReduction distinctly failed.

Actually, the worse thing about making a Archer's Belt using the "OR" parameter is that it's description doesn't display very well when examined *. And I notice (with my own scripts) that it does NOT count the DR as an added property (same as in previous tests).

[Lance Botelle]

in the Toolset i got an unhandled exception twice and so closed the ts. It has worked in the past but since it's not a priority for me, atm .....otoh, trying to script an itempropery DamageReduction distinctly failed.

Hi KevL,

Scripting DR IP still fails for me too. But, the fact that I can add this property to items at the toolset level is useful. ESPECIALLY, as I can use the OR logic to mean more than one damage type can bypass the DR .... which means (for example), if I add DR 5 to an item with piercing SLASHING or PIERCING, then the item is effectively a 5 DR v BLUDGEON only! (Ignoring all other types for now.)

AND THIS MEANS ... I can do the same thing to a creature skin and have a single DR effect for the creature rather than two!

NB: It *cannot* be used for PCs due to problems of attaching *any* "creature item" to a PC.

If I could have tidied up the way the description looked when applying "OR" logic to DR set on an item, then I would have accepted the method for PC items too.

Works fine apart from description of properties ... and property recognition ...



As I say, I am going to use IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE TYPE item properties now. As they start from 5% and go all the way to 90%, I reckon that gives a better all round progression too. As a DR value of 5 is probably the equivalent of around 25% if we reckon a maximum damage of about 20 in any one attack.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Lance Botelle]

Final post for clarity ...

EffectDamageResistance: Cannot use this function to add *ANY* DR reduction.
ItemPropertyDamageReduction: Have not been successful in adding DR to skin or armour items.
EffectDamageReduction: Have only be successful in adding a *pair* of DR and not one by itself. (Use IP_CONST_XXX and reverse logic.)

EXAMPLES:

eDR = EffectDamageReduction(5, 0, 0, DR_TYPE_DMGTYPE); // Applies DR for P and S (B Gets Through)
eDR = EffectDamageReduction(5, 1, 0, DR_TYPE_DMGTYPE); // Applies DR for B and S (P Gets Through)
eDR = EffectDamageReduction(5, 2, 0, DR_TYPE_DMGTYPE); // Applies DR for B and P (S Gets Through)

SET VIA TOOLSET PRIOR PLAY (CREATURES AND ITEMS): Appears to work if you bear weapon corrections into account (See next).

The Morningstar is BLUDGEONING only (TLK 5412 NEEDS CORRECTING) and that the Longsword is both SLASHING AND PIERCING! Also SLASHING & PIERCING: Bastard Sword, Halberd, Katana, Scythe. (Total five weapons.) Therefore, Longsword (TLK 5417), Bastard Sword (TLK 5434) and Katana (TLK 5423) need descriptor correction.

From the toolset setting, we have the option of applying "OR" logic to the "piercings" selected, which means we can make it so a creature (or item) has DR against only ONE type. In theory, as applying this to a "skin" item is possible, it means we can also create different skins and alter "monsters" on the fly by swapping out "skins". NB: Using skins with PCs is NOT possible in NWN2 due to problems that come from doing so. (See my blog for details. Search for "skin".)

For PCs, a better solution would be to use the DAMAGE IMMUNITY (5-90%) v WEAPON DAMAGE TYPE rather than the DR for an item when only one DR type is required, due to the problems noted in the image in the previous post. (i.e. Property presentation and lack of recognising the property is actually present!)

I think that is everything!

Cheers,
Lance.

[Dann-J]

 

As I say, I am going to use IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE TYPE item properties now. As they start from 5% and go all the way to 90%, I reckon that gives a better all round progression too. As a DR value of 5 is probably the equivalent of around 25% if we reckon a maximum damage of about 20 in any one attack.

Cheers,
Lance.

 

The advantage of the % immunity item properties is that multiple equipped items will stack. Two items with 50% immunity for the same damage type will grant you 100% immunity, for instance. I once created a set called the Garb of the Pyromancer that granted 100% fire immunity when all items were worn.

 

There is a major downside though - if you exceed 100% immunity you start taking bonus damage instead! So 150% immunity is considered the same as 50% vulnerability by the game engine (you'll take 1.5 times the damage). Unlike in the Baldur's Gate games, where > 100% immunity healed the player when they encountered that damage type.

[Lance Botelle]

The advantage of the % immunity item properties is that multiple equipped items will stack. Two items with 50% immunity for the same damage type will grant you 100% immunity, for instance. I once created a set called the Garb of the Pyromancer that granted 100% fire immunity when all items were worn.
 
There is a major downside though - if you exceed 100% immunity you start taking bonus damage instead! So 150% immunity is considered the same as 50% vulnerability by the game engine (you'll take 1.5 times the damage). Unlike in the Baldur's Gate games, where > 100% immunity healed the player when they encountered that damage type.

Hi DannJ,

That's some good information to know. And maybe, being made prone to some damage (if you go over 100%) *might* be a good feature, as it can then act as a penalty if the player does not juggle the benefits against the penalties for donning certain equipment with different types of immunity and any other benefits.

E.g.

Helm     45% B 25% P 40% S + Dex + 1
Armour   30% B 30% P 30% S + AC Bonus +1
Gauntlet 30% B 25% P 50% S + Str + 1
Boots    30% B 50% P 30% S + Prot AC v Evil +1

What combination would you wear?

Cheers,
Lance.

[4760]

What combination would you wear?

Interesting choice!

Obviously, it will also depend on your class, but Helm+Gauntlets+Boots would be nice for an archer.

[Lance Botelle]

Interesting choice!
Obviously, it will also depend on your class, but Helm+Gauntlets+Boots would be nice for an archer.

Hi Thierry,

Interesting ... So in your case, your final result would be:-

100% P protection, + 1 DEX, + 1 STR and +1 AC v Evil
but also with 5% B penalty and 20% S Penalty.

I think my choice would be (because I like to play a cleric):-

Helm, Armour plus Gauntlets to give:-

80% P protection, + 1 DEX, + 1 STR and +1 AC
but also with 5% B penalty and 20% S Penalty.

EDIT: It is possible I would go with the same as you if I felt I could avoid non-evil enemies. Although, I don't think I could avoid such enemies, that's the problem.

Anybody else got any preferences .... helps give a feel for item creation.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Dann-J]

Now I'm wondering what would happen if you wore items that granted >100% immunity, and then wore another item that grants a percentage vulnerability. Would the vulnerability counteract the >100% (ie. 110% - 10% = 100%)? Or would the two vulnerabilities (one actual, one an artefact of the game engine) combine to make you even more vulnerable?

 

[Lance Botelle]

Now I'm wondering what would happen if you wore items that granted >100% immunity, and then wore another item that grants a percentage vulnerability. Would the vulnerability counteract the >100% (ie. 110% - 10% = 100%)? Or would the two vulnerabilities (one actual, one an artefact of the game engine) combine to make you even more vulnerable?
 

Good question.

Are you going to test ... and let us know?

Cheers,
Lance.