98 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

That's for Michel, a very smart and talented chevalier. If someone with less ability to read between the lines were put through that test it is entirely possible they would believe they are actually being sent to kill criminals. And unless I am misremembering it doesn't specify strong wine, while Michel does say something about being drugged.

 

My point isn't that Michel has an excuse, its that judging the Chevaliers as a whole by this isn't an accurate picture, many of them doubtless believe they are doing what is right and punishing some criminals.

 

Sorry, but you are misremembering. Quoting from TME:

 

"Your bodies have been tested, and found strong, the masters had said. Your minds have been tested, and found sharp. The masters had passed around a skin of strong wine, pushed the students out of the coaches, and said, now, test your blades. Thrice this year, the elves of these streets have done injury to a lord of Orlais, and once to a lady. Go forth and mete out the justice of the chevaliers of Orlais.

 

Michel had known that the tale the masters had told was most likely a lie, and that even if it were true, they had no way of knowing which elves had committed the crime. He had also known that the truth was not the point of this last test. He had drunk the wine, and tested his blade. Ser Michel de Chevin had never looked back."

That those chevaliers are drunken righteous morons instead of card carrying villains doesn't make things better. Let's play a game: do you think that, drunken or not, if their masters had taken them to a fancy street and told them that "nobles of these streets have done injury to a elven man, and once to an elven woman" and that they should avenge those crimes, they would have done that?

[KC_Prototype]

I would rather be Ferelden again than Orleasian but then I am a little tired of wet dog comments. I quite like the noble trope for humans tbh, it's really a more interesting perspective for a human than just a commoner, especially if it gives you more options with other nobles. 

I like being Ferelden and hearing the doglord or anything do related insults. It makes conquering those obstacles that much sweeter and gives your rage to kill an Orlesian or Free Marcher.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which are commited under coertion. If a Chevalier makes an hobby of going into the slums to kill elves, then you can judge him.
 

Peer pressure is no excuse for murder. 

[MisterJB]

That those chevaliers are drunken righteous morons instead of card carrying villains doesn't make things better. Let's play a game: do you think that, drunken or not, if their masters had taken them to a fancy street and told them that "nobles of these streets have done injury to a elven man, and once to an elven woman" and that they should avenge those crimes, they would have done that?

Actually, yes.

Not because they give a damn about elves but because their instructors ordered them to. Disobedience is dishonorable. "Death before dishonor" and all that.

 

Peer pressure is no excuse for murder.

"Following orders" is. Let us not discount the fact that, at this point, they have had hammered into their minds the code of honor of the Chevaliers in which obedience to one's liege is greatly praised.

If Celene told Michel to duel a noble's champion to the death because he has offended her honor, would you blame him for doing so rather than bring the man before the Magistrate for difamation?

Same situation.

 

Besides, it's just a bunch of elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Actually, yes.

Not because they give a damn about elves but because their instructors ordered them to. Disobedience is dishonorable. "Death before dishonor" and all that.

 

"Following orders" is. Let us not discount the fact that, at this point, they have had hammered into their minds the code of honor of the Chevaliers in which obedience to one's liege is greatly praised.

If Celene told Michel to duel a noble's champion to the death because he has offended her honor, would you blame him for doing so rather than bring the man before the Magistrate for difamation?

Same situation.

 

Besides, it's just a bunch of elves.

And right here is where I don't take you seriously anymore. 

[MisterJB]

(shrugs) You're free to.

[aTigerslunch]

In this case their reasoning taken away do to being drunk and slaying "only" elven criminals to be part of them is good? Uh. What about those four coterie dwarves that just did a crime in that street nearby. Nah, just kill those elves over here. What about that human that just walked out of a house with a bloody dagger. Neither are obvious criminals as they hid their crime BUT these elves here did a crime with no proof. Yeah......sure...Chevaliers are fighting injustice.

A woman was defended against Chevaliers from thinking they have the right to women, attempting to rape but the man sacrificed himself to save her. Sounds like Chevaliers are good to me. I might of remembered it slightly off but do know she was to be raped by their rights. Yep, sure sounds justifiable. So far, I haven't seen a good example of a Chevalier. Wonder what the Inquisition will have as examples of Chevaliers.

Reference girl in the market place in Origins who talks about them.

I dont know Michel, not read the books. If there are good examples in there then I may consider changing my opinion but with the ref that I read of him, sorry still no go.

[MisterJB]

One Chevalier tries to rape a woman; clearly, they're all worse than demons.

Or we could condemn just that one Chevalier.

[The Baconer]

One Chevalier tries to rape a woman; clearly, they're all worse than demons.

Or we could condemn just that one Chevalier.

 

Wouldn't they all be condemnable by default if part of their initiation is murdering people?

[MisterJB]

Wouldn't they all be condemnable by default if part of their initiation is murdering people?

Just following orders. Not their finest moment, I admit, but it is a symptom of orlesian culture.

It is as much of a flaw in their characters as owning slaves is for Tevinter Magister Maevaris who is, otherwise, an honorable and respectful individual. And while our 21st century views color how we perceive her, one must admit that there is a degree of difference between Maevaris and Hadriana who took great pleasure in tormenting Fenris.

If a Chevalier makes an hobby of going into the Alienage and killing elves, I'll believe s/he is condemnable. Meanwhile, we can have perfectly decent Chevaliers like Ser Michel who commited bad actions in the past.

[The Baconer]

Just following orders.

 

I find that Magneto quote from First Class so appropriate here.

 

 

It is as much of a flaw in their characters as owning slaves is for Tevinter Magister Maevaris who is, otherwise, an honorable and respectful individual.

 

Is she? I don't feel like I even knew enough about her to make such a judgement of character.

[MisterJB]

Is she? I don't feel like I even knew enough about her to make such a judgement of character.

She kept her word as a Magisters and protected her guest; which could also be interpreted as a way of protecting her reputation; and she adressed Alistair and Maric by "your majesty" despite them being non-mages, even in informal settings.

[The Baconer]

She kept her word as a Magisters and protected her guest; which could also be interpreted as a way of protecting her reputation;

 

Would she do the same for someone who is not of pre-established import? A stranger? An urchin?

[aTigerslunch]

I will see how they are portrayed in Inquisition, but that elven slaying isnt good regardless.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I find that Magneto quote from First Class so appropriate here.

 

Loved that scene. I agreed with Charles but at the same time you can't really argue against Eric.

 

 

2:40 - 3:10

[ladyoflate]

Following orders is no excuse for doing reprehensible acts. Most genocides have been predicated on the act of 'just following orders'. 'Just following orders' stopped being an excuse a looooooooooooooooooooooong time ago.

[AkiKishi]

 

 

"Following orders" is. Let us not discount the fact that, at this point, they have had hammered into their minds the code of honor of the Chevaliers in which obedience to one's liege is greatly praised.

If Celene told Michel to duel a noble's champion to the death because he has offended her honor, would you blame him for doing so rather than bring the man before the Magistrate for difamation?

Same situation.

 

Besides, it's just a bunch of elves.

 

Did not work so well at Nuremburg.

[Ananka]

I'm a bit tired of being Ferelden

 

Same. I would have liked being Orlesian. And being from Tevinter would have been beyond awesome. But Rivaini, Nevarran or Antivan would be fine too, I would just like to be from another country than Ferelden.

[Char]

Did not work so well at Nuremburg.

No but in the wake of that we did get the classic Milgram study. When 65% of your sample will inflict a lethal electric shock on someone just because an authority figure told them to do so, it says a lot about humanity. Just because obedience to authority is not something we like to admit to, doesnt mean it should be overlooked as an important trait which allows us to explain why so many people are prepared to allow horrific things to happen to others around them. That's even without looking at social norms and bystander apathy.

I've always been interested in peoples motivations, they are fascinating

[Char]

Anyway, to return to the actual topic of this thread, which was supposed to be about the human origin story, not a moral debate over chevaliers...

Has anyone heard if mages are getting a seperate origin again? I would expect so since they would probably require handling differently to a human warrior or rogue.
I'm quite excited about getting different origins again it helps me to be able to comfortably build totally different characters.

[Senya]

Anyway, to return to the actual topic of this thread, which was supposed to be about the human origin story, not a moral debate over chevaliers...

Has anyone heard if mages are getting a seperate origin again? I would expect so since they would probably require handling differently to a human warrior or rogue.
I'm quite excited about getting different origins again it helps me to be able to comfortably build totally different characters.

Mages will definitely get a separate origin. In addition, I believe I have read that their race will also affect their origin, though I can be wrong.

[Char]

Mages will definitely get a separate origin. In addition, I believe I have read that their race will also affect their origin, though I can be wrong.

I'd like that. Vashoth mage, circle mage and Dalish mage could give some fantastic origin stories. And there are alternatives for each, too.

I think our human non-mages are probably going to be generals of some sort, though it would be funny to play as someone who was there for a day trip, or to iron the shirts of the diplomats.

[In Exile]

No but in the wake of that we did get the classic Milgram study. When 65% of your sample will inflict a lethal electric shock on someone just because an authority figure told them to do so, it says a lot about humanity. Just because obedience to authority is not something we like to admit to, doesnt mean it should be overlooked as an important trait which allows us to explain why so many people are prepared to allow horrific things to happen to others around them. That's even without looking at social norms and bystander apathy.

I've always been interested in peoples motivations, they are fascinating

 

There are lots of problems with that study, including the oppressive atmosphere the experimenters created and the impression that the study would not actually be harmful, despite it being harmful. There are lots of ways to get people to follow orders and do horrible things, but that line of research doesn't actually show people will follow orders to do horrible things. Everything is about psychological oppression (the participants in that study had emotional breakdowns while undergoing the study), diffusing responsibility (being told they aren't responsible for any resulting harm, that the procedure was supposedly safe), and the knowledge and legitimacy gap (scientific research is hard to understand for laymen and a major university - in that case Yale - has sanctioned this as being safe and legitimate). 

 

Let's go out and murder some elves, when we know it's basically wrong, is very different from the conditions in those studies. 

[Char]

There are lots of problems with that study, including the oppressive atmosphere the experimenters created and the impression that the study would not actually be harmful, despite it being harmful. There are lots of ways to get people to follow orders and do horrible things, but that line of research doesn't actually show people will follow orders to do horrible things. Everything is about psychological oppression (the participants in that study had emotional breakdowns while undergoing the study), diffusing responsibility (being told they aren't responsible for any resulting harm, that the procedure was supposedly safe), and the knowledge and legitimacy gap (scientific research is hard to understand for laymen and a major university - in that case Yale - has sanctioned this as being safe and legitimate). 
 
Let's go out and murder some elves, when we know it's basically wrong, is very different from the conditions in those studies.

Oh I will absolutely grant you his study was flawed. It was horribly unethical and led to the introduction of compulsory debriefing. It was still a defining study though, and has been replicated successfully in a more ethical manner across a range of settings, demographics and cultures, which suggests that his underlying principles have merit.

I certainly do think that some aspects of the study apply though- a respected organisation, being told they are doing the right thing, the rewards of the chevalier lifestyle can all be seen as factors to induce compliance.

Of course, I say this as someone who hasn't read TME and was just hoping to provide a different perspective on an argument that seems to be happening all over this forum