58 réponses à ce sujet

[Mathias]

I always felt this to be a problem with the writing of the game, but I ignored it for the most part because honestly there were worse things to be mad about (Kai Leng, The Ending, etc), but now I feel like it deserves mention. I find the pace at which The Reapers are wiping out the Galaxy in ME3 to be wildly inconsistent with what we've known about past cycles.

 

As Liara mentions, it took hundreds of years for The Reapers to completely wipe out The Protheans, and as Vigil mention the extermination of an entire species is a very slow process. The story of Mass Effect 3 seems to take place no more than a few months, and yet throughout the game there were lines of dialogue that made me raise an eyebrow. Like Garrus in the beginning telling me the Turians already lost 85% of their military, or when Vendetta mentions The Reapers are preparing to complete their harvest on the humans. I don't understand the state of mind the writers were in when they wrote dialogue like this. Even in past cycles the Reapers began with a distinct advantage because of the Citadel being their means of entering the Galaxy, but in Mass Effect 3 they had to enter the galaxy the slow way. 

 

So how is it possible the Reapers are wiping out the galaxy in this cycle, a hundred times faster than previous cycles? I know people like to concentrate on the ending, and that's understandable, but the game as a whole just didn't have good writing. It had a few moments of brilliance here and there, but the whole thing came off as lazy and not well thought out. 

[Althix]

you know why

[Deathsaurer]

This cycle had a pathological fear of exploring the galaxy after the Rachni. The Prothean Empire was far larger and Liara said it'd still take at least a century to wipe us out completely.

[Mathias]

you know why

 

Does it begin with a S?

[Mathias]

This cycle had a pathological fear of exploring the galaxy after the Rachni. The Prothean Empire was far larger and Liara said it'd still take at least a century to wipe us out completely.

 

Do we know for a fact that the Prothean Empire was far larger? Because this cycle is pretty damn diverse with it's races. Even if true, I don't buy this as a reason for how extremely fast we were being wiped out in this game. The Galaxy is a massive place.

[78stonewobble]

Good questions... I'm replaying me3 right now and just passed Javik's comments on the war of his cycle, so it stuck out to me as well. 

 

I don't know if there is any explanation given ingame? 

 

Personally I'm guessing that the Protheans were highly militarised, due to the need to keep subservient races in check and their own AI war.

 

Presumably they were also much more widespread in the galaxy? Aren't their ruins found in all parts of the galaxy? 

 

Whereas in this cycle most of the species avoid some other part of the galaxy. 

[KotorEffect3]

The cleanup would take longer than the initial attacks on the homeworlds.  Besides I think the codex or something mentioned that it would take the Reapers a good ten years to completely depopulate earth at the rate they were harvesting earth's population.  Now granted they were harvesting humanity to reaperize us  and not simply wiping us out but figuring that they would likely turn the other races into destroyers (turians, asari, etc...).   I could see the reaping taking a good century or so.

[cap and gown]

I get the impression that by having so many writers, each one comes up with a line of dialogue that sounds cool/emotive/whatever, so it goes in, even though it is inconsistent with the established lore (or science, or logic, or common sense). They have some great lines. Too bad they don't all fit together into a coherent story.

[Kabooooom]

A) Garrus actually says that 85% of troops are being killed in action, not that 85% of the military is gone.

B ) Liara says it will take over a century to complete the cycle. There are far, far more star clusters in the relay network than what you see in the game. You see only a small fraction of the network. The Reapers did, however, cripple the galaxy's militaristic capabilities and economy.

And yes, Vigil's comment made no sense.

And yes, Liara confirms that the Prothean empire was more widespread than the current cycle races are in the relay network. The reason for this was probably the Rachni War.

[Mathias]

A) Garrus actually says that 85% of troops are being killed in action, not that 85% of the military is gone.

B ) Liara says it will take over a century to complete the cycle. There are far, far more star clusters in the relay network than what you see in the game. You see only a small fraction of the network. The Reapers did, however, cripple the galaxy's militaristic capabilities and economy.

And yes, Vigil's comment made no sense.

And yes, Liara confirms that the Prothean empire was more widespread than the current cycle races are in the relay network. The reason for this was probably the Rachni War.

 

So by troops do you mean actual men, or ground troops? If ground troops that's still pretty hard to bite. Also by Vigil I assume you mean Vendetta?

 

All these things I would've rolled with better if this were he result of 1-2 years of the Reaper war, but all of this happens within a matter of weeks. 

[Kabooooom]

Yeah my bad I meant Vendetta. And I just played that part last night. Garrus is specifically referring to infantry on Palaven, and mentions that Reapers can wipe out "whole platoons in a single shot". Which sounds quite believable to me. He is not saying 85% are already dead. He is saying of all troops which are deployed to the front lines, 85% of them are dying in action.

[Mathias]

Yeah my bad I meant Vendetta. And I just played that part last night. Garrus is specifically referring to infantry on Palaven, and mentions that Reapers can wipe out "whole platoons in a single shot". Which sounds quite believable to me. He is not saying 85% are already dead. He is saying of all troops which are deployed to the front lines, 85% of them are dying in action.

 

Ok that makes more sense.

[dreamgazer]

This cycle had a pathological fear of exploring the galaxy after the Rachni. The Prothean Empire was far larger and Liara said it'd still take at least a century to wipe us out completely.

 

Ding, ding, ding.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

As for the other inconsistencies: BWT. Bad Writing Theory.

[fhs33721]

There is a difference between wiping out an entire species and completely defeating the military of a species. Most of people aren't soldiers and it takes waaay longer to kill every single human than to kill every human soldier.

What the Reapers are doing in ME3 is systematically wiping out all military opposition in a short timeframe and you obviously has to finish the crubcile before there is no military left to deliver it anywhere. So the urgent narrative is fitting.

The following Reaping is what would take the Reapers a century because they have to fly to every inhabited planet in the whole galaxy and turn its inhabitants into goo. That is the time consuming part of the cycles. Not blowing the opposition to pieces.

[SwobyJ]

Based on up to ME3 lore:

 

Prothians made themselves to be stronger. They faced their AI opposition before (instead of hiding from it like with the Council towards the Geth) and kept stepping up to the plate. They explored the galaxy and fought to dominate it, regardless of what would be at the other side. As a civilization/species, they have elements of many of this cycle's, yet contained in one form. Any servant species were likely kept down and mostly localized to their planets, while the Prothians (species) stood on their throne.

 

It can be reasonably assumed that the Prothians were the biggest outright challenge that the Reapers had faced. They were not enough, but I can see them as part of the decision that "the solution can't work anymore". If any organic cycle can resist as much as the Prothians did, and if a much weaker one can still get to the point of Shepard meeting the Reaper Intelligence... it's seriously just a matter of time before the Reaping cycle will be broken.

 

~~~

 

It took hundreds of years to wipe out the Prothians, but it would still take at least decades to wipe out the Council cycle. Wipe out does not mean militarily (so to speak) defeat. The Prothians themselves likely only lasted decades in that regard, if that. They may have even only lasted single digit years toe-to-toe with the Reapers too.

 

They were arrogant about their strength due to previous victories against machines, and too focused on combat instead of planning, that they were smacked down before the right time to complete any sort of super weapon. The Crucible was only partially completed. The effort to resurface and conquer during the next cycle was largely doomed from the start - the exception being Javik. Their focus on only fighting and believing themselves as representative of a force of nature (natural evolution) was their downfall.

 

The Ilos (and other) researchers were a part of the Prothians that did something different. They tried to understand the Cycles (but rejected understanding the Reapers due to the danger of indoctrination), in order to find a weakness in it.

They were the ones to more clearly offer hope for the next cycle (sabotaging the Keepers) and an alteration of the variables, and they did so by understanding that the Prothians were finished, but still have something to offer future species - benevolence, not domination.

 

 

~~~

 

There are three phases to look at:

1)War - or at least organics can fool themselves that it is war

2)Harvest - which is what the Reapers tend to regard it as

3)Annihilation - which all agree happens to the physical forms of all organic civlizations, after being 'killed'/'preserved'

 

War takes very little time. Years to maybe decades.

Harvest takes decades to maybe centuries.

Annihilation probably always takes centuries to make sure it is complete enough.

[DeinonSlayer]

There is a difference between wiping out an entire species and completely defeating the military of a species. Most of people aren't soldiers and it takes waaay longer to kill every single human than to kill every human soldier.

Something people on this board frequently lose sight of.

[JasonShepard]

The Reapers are winning in a very short period - they'll have a complete military victory before the year is out, and by the end of the game they've conquered more than a few major homeworlds. (It's worth noting that we probably hold out longer in this respect than the Protheans did, since we can still use the relays and didn't lose the Citadel straight away.)

 

However, there's a major difference between military victory and wiping out every last bit of resistance. Even once governments have fallen, homeworlds have been sacrificed and harvested, and armadas have been blown to shreds, there will still be holdouts. Civilians that retreated into unexplored corners of the galaxy. Remaining military units pulling off guerilla tactics (and probably having very little impact). That sort of thing. For the Reapers to be finished, they need to scour the galaxy clean - and, unsurprisingly, that'll take a while. It is 100,000 lightyears wide...

[Mathias]

I understand the difference between wiping out an entire race, and complete military victory. The problem here is the game implying towards the end that the Reapers were already close to completing their harvest, at least for the humans.

[SwobyJ]

Humanity isn't very spread out. They're new. Several planets/locations with significance. Billions of people, but mostly on Earth. They haven't had the centuries to be prominent elsewhere.

 

I know we see a bunch of humans on the Citadel, Illium, and Omega, but yeah.

 

They're not close to completing the harvest. They're close to getting to the point where it won't matter (near extermination of humanity). The completion of harvest of humanity will take years to decades more.

 

 

The Reapers clearly became more and more efficient about the harvest with every cycle, but that still means they have to be careful about it. They can't bomb more than they think they need to. They can't directly kill more than those who openly resist (they seem to opt to huskify/indoctrinate and harvest civilians who don't resist in most cases).

Their plan from our perspective involves just killing us all. From their perspective, it may be different. Anyway, my point is that crushing a planet's resistance still isn't the same as eliminating any civilization there, and even that isn't the same as destroying most trace of the civilization aside from some ruins.

 

London is also one of the hardest hit locations where the Reapers first hit. You can count on other areas giving more sense of secrecy and safety, places to block out Reaper notice, etc. Some humans could last for at least years. In planets with less notice of the Reapers, it could take years or decades until the Reapers find you.

[SwobyJ]

I think what the game is implying towards the end is that the Reapers are close to getting what they want from humanity.

[AlanC9]

So how is it possible the Reapers are wiping out the galaxy in this cycle, a hundred times faster than previous cycles? I know people like to concentrate on the ending, and that's understandable, but the game as a whole just didn't have good writing. It had a few moments of brilliance here and there, but the whole thing came off as lazy and not well thought out.

Well, obviously, an ME3 that took hundreds of years to play would be a non-starter, unless they killed Shepard early and let us play as Liara.

More seriously, why couldn't the Reapers win as fast as they feel they need to? Planets are not defensible in the MEU.

[AlanC9]

I understand the difference between wiping out an entire race, and complete military victory. The problem here is the game implying towards the end that the Reapers were already close to completing their harvest, at least for the humans.

99 % of the human race lives on Earth. Since the Reapers control Earth....

Come to think of it, the game is explicit that Earth will still take several years to harvest. I don't actually know what you're talking about here.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Unlike in most other fictional universes, the planets in the MEU have no form of protection. One could just do some math and annihilate cities with ease from the other side of the galaxy. 

The Reapers have a huge weakness in this aspect, as their focus is to make grey/shiny orange goo to make a new Reaper.