36 réponses à ce sujet

[drome34]

How does the Qunari economy work? How can it be percived to work?What do you think? It has been stated at

various times in the wiki(now removed?) and on the forums that the QUnari are based partly

on communism and partly on Platos Republic. Im not an expert on either. So I would like your input to help

me understand why/how the Qunari can be so mighty.

 

The Qunari are described as being one of the most powerful countries in Thedas, yet I am at a loss

to understand how that is possible, considering that their economy seem to contradict everything we

modern people belive creates wealth, if I understand correctly.

Meaning, they do not belive people should choose to work with whatever the economy demands, instead,

they seem to have a command economy where everything is decided by beurocrat.

 

 

 

Lets assume that every Qunari, no matter what their role is, wakes up every morning full of spirit 

and asks "Boss what am I doing today?" recives an answer/order and then does it with gusto. There

still seems to be the problem that Ludvig von Mises pointed out, nameley, that beurocrats know How Much

they can produce, but they dont know How Much of What should be produced. They might know that they can

produce 100,000 plows for the farmers this year, but they have no way of knowing if that is enough or 

too much. There are too many variables to take into account. This according to capitalists. According to 

socialists this is not an issue.

 

How would the Qunari solve this problem?

 

Trade.

 

We all probably know that trade is good. For example, I can build a "factory" that turns Qunari corn into swords.

Dont belive me? Well in my "factory" the corn is loaded on crates and shipped to Ferelden, and in return,

my "factory" recives crates full of swords from Ferelden blacksmiths. "Trade" is the "technology" that turned corn into

swords. 

However, the Qunar wiki states that Qunari expressely do not trade with other nations for the purpose of

gaining wealth. What do the Qunari do with anything that is over produced(something wich seems bound

to happen in their economy)? How do they get something that they lack?

 

Also, their lack of trade seems to imply they shouldnt be as strong as they are, since trade makes

things cheaper and allows for a wider division of labour (by using other nations labour to your advantage).

Sten mentions that they grow tea in Par Vollen wich is a luxury/cash crop that Qunari could presumably use

to trade with to get more food. And more food means more Qunari, and more Qunari means more soldiers. 

But they dont. This should weaken the Qunari significantly in relation to other countries.

 

Fairness.

 

How could the Qunari economy be percived as fair? We know for example that someone doing heavy labour

as a 20 year old have a lower risk of injury then a 50 year old doing the same labour. Since the Qunari

dont waste anything, they should recognize this and relocate 50 year old labourers to something else.

Especially since it has been stated that the Tamassrans take care of all wounded/unable Qunari(the only retirement system in Thedas?) they would be carefoul

about wearing old people out with heavy work. It wouldnt be effective.

How can your economic role change through life? A more fair system might be that everyone should do heavy 

labour while they have energy. SO between maybe 12 and 50 everyone works as hard as they can. Then those

who still live are transferred to other roles, such as trainers, supervisers, merchants, teachers, bosses,

managers etc. where they have to do less work. What did the communts want to do with old labourers? 

Did Plato have anything to say on the matter? how do other similar philosophies/utopias create "fairness"?

 

 

 

Capital and Wages.

 

Where do capital come from in Qunari lands? Is private capital even needed? Where does the state get capital

for building forts or roads or schools or whatever? Normally, people get a wage wich they save -> invest -> consume.

This allows the economy to grow and prosper. No such system seems to be concivable in Qunari lands, since

they dont trade and they dont have currency, as stated in the wiki. The Soviet union solved this problem

by forcing down private consumption from 80%(of wages) to 50% , using the money to make possibly the 

fastest industrialisation in history. Its precivable then that the Qunari would be very adept at producing

stuff on a large scale then and change their society/conqured lands fundamentaly very quickly.

 

Im not from the US but I remember an interesting payment system in the US army during WW2. Every 5 years

the soldier would go up a paygrade and there were four paygrades. This meant you could have a career

as a rifleman or bazookaman doing the same thing for 20 years and still afford to feed your kids.

That seems fair to me, with more experience you get more pay. But how do the Qunari imagine fair wages?

Since no one has a family to support, why even bother raising the wage? And do you really need more "stuff"

as 50 year old then when you are 20 years old? Probably not. You could get by on the same wage. Does this

mean that an inexperienced 20 year old have a "higher then he should" wage, or that 50 year old Qunari have lower

they should wages(in relation to their experience)? or both? How do communists think? How did Plato think?

Other utopias?

 

Very little with the Qunari economy seems to suggest they should be very powerful. I even belive they

should one of the least populous races and one of the weakest peoples of Thedas taking their 

economy in consideration. But im obviously wrong. So, how can it come that the Qunari have both a 

command economy and is one of the most powerful nations in Thedas? What is the source of their "utopian power"?

[Mistic]

I think you're mixing things up, including capitalism, communism, Plato's Republic and, of course, the Qunari.

 

First, to start talking about economy, you have to remember which kind of economy we're talking about. All countries in Thedas live in pre-industrial societies in which the most important measurement of wealth is land production. You have to think first about how economy in the Middle Ages worked before using examples that only work in industrial societies.

 

Second, look for examples in real life about those societies. Sparta comes to mind, as an agressive militaristic society, based on agriculture, that discouraged trade and separated people to do certain jobs. Of course, they used a lot of slave work and were ruthless expansionists. Could it be applied to the Qunari?

 

But I'm not an expert in economy, so I hope someone can provide the necessary knowledge.

[Eveangaline]

All I remember about the quns economy is one third of their triumvarate is in charge of the economic stuff of the country.

 

Also that, since one qunari mentioned trained monkeys in the street, monkey trainer is a job there and they surely have some form of entertainment jobs because having trained monkeys be the only source of entertainment would get boring quick.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no "wealth" so to speak in Qunari society. You do not do your job as a Qunari for the pay, you do it because it is your duty. A Qunari merchant in Qunari lands is more of a supervisor, who makes sure that everyone gets their daily supplies, than a merchant as we may know them.

 

Qunari can still trade, even if it isn't to gain profit. If the Qunari have produced an excess of corn, they may well trade it with other nations, then use whatever gold they gained (or just barter the wares directly across) to purchase the product they need.

[AkiKishi]

Quanari are the ultimate form of communism.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Quanari are the ultimate form of communism.

Not exactly. Communist would (/should) abhor the caste system and gender limitations of the Qunari, but rejoice at almost everything else the Qunari offers (disregarding the magic aspects).

 

Qunari seems to be a mixture between confucianism, communism and Plato's republic. Which if you ask me is enough of a cocktail to simply say that the QUnari are unique in and of their own.

[klebaart]

I agree with Mistic, moreover your reasoning uses the same hypothesis that applies to our economy, but both socialism and capitalism are not designed to work in a duty-driven society, and you can't conclude anything from a macroeconomics point of view if you can't do the math that comes along.

We don't have enough information to speculate about anything. Maybe they are trading with northern civilizations that we are unaware of. Maybe most of their new recruits (elves for example) are used as their force of labor, and it is enough to expand their land production.

 

It has been stated that the Qunari society works as a whole (the "body" analogy made by at least Sten I think). It is only possible because everyone follows the Qun and mostly understands it the same way. Therefore I believe it is possible for a society that we'd consider utopian to exist. I think that theirs is heavily structured, maybe closer in this to nowadays corporation than to Middle Ages nations.

 

Anyway maybe everything we're saying is over-thinking since Bioware writers probably didn't have to come up with a fully sustainable economic model when creating the Qunari (which I would understand).

[Augustei]

Qunari have no currency if I remember correctly. Anyway OP your attempted analysis of the Qunari economy is based to much in conventional thinking of economic standards, Considering how very alien their society is, especially from an economic standpoint it would be difficult to make much progress in an analysis while thinking conventionally.

[drome34]

I think you're mixing things up, including capitalism, communism, Plato's Republic and, of course, the Qunari.

 

First, to start talking about economy, you have to remember which kind of economy we're talking about. All countries in Thedas live in pre-industrial societies in which the most important measurement of wealth is land production. You have to think first about how economy in the Middle Ages worked before using examples that only work in industrial societies.

 

Second, look for examples in real life about those societies. Sparta comes to mind, as an agressive militaristic society, based on agriculture, that discouraged trade and separated people to do certain jobs. Of course, they used a lot of slave work and were ruthless expansionists. Could it be applied to the Qunari?

 

But I'm not an expert in economy, so I hope someone can provide the necessary knowledge.

 

Yes, we know the Qunari uses slaves I belive (quamek turning people into mindless laborers) but they might not be that many. And we dont have to look to sparta either I belive. Most medieval societies were divided into priest class, warrior class, and worker class (oratores, bellatores, labores). And people were basically born into their job. You did what your father did, and women... well , sadly, they did what their mothers did. The Qun atleast offer you the chance to become something you wish to become by excelling at it, If I understand them correctly.

 

But still, their economy leaves alot to wish for. Especially since they are to be considered one of the most powerful states in Thedas.

 

 

There is no "wealth" so to speak in Qunari society. You do not do your job as a Qunari for the pay, you do it because it is your duty. A Qunari merchant in Qunari lands is more of a supervisor, who makes sure that everyone gets their daily supplies, than a merchant as we may know them.

 

Qunari can still trade, even if it isn't to gain profit. If the Qunari have produced an excess of corn, they may well trade it with other nations, then use whatever gold they gained (or just barter the wares directly across) to purchase the product they need.

 

I think I see what you mean. But you must still be "paid" no? In food, clothes, shelter and equipment at the very least. I feel im not getting something you are trying to convey.

 

Yes, I didnt think of trade that wasn't for profit , but was the next best thing: barter 1 for 1. Good point. Turns out the Qunari just might not be so economically backwards as I might have thought. Since they have been likened to muslims, I remember a passage when reading the Quran that said something about not being allowed to trade one good apple for two bad apples, as you would have made an illegal profit thus. Maybe the Qun has a similar law? The samurai (also apparently inspiration for the Qunari?) looked down on merchants, as did many other societies. For the reason that the merchant dont "produce" anything in the traditional sense. Maybe the Qun see merchants as bas/things? Unless strictly controlled according to their own standards ofcourse.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think I see what you mean. But you must still be "paid" no? In food, clothes, shelter and equipment at the very least. I feel im not getting something you are trying to convey.

 

Yes, I didnt think of trade that wasn't for profit , but was the next best thing: barter 1 for 1. Good point. Turns out the Qunari just might not be so economically backwards as I might have thought. Since they have been likened to muslims, I remember a passage when reading the Quran that said something about not being allowed to trade one good apple for two bad apples, as you would have made an illegal profit thus. Maybe the Qun has a similar law? The samurai (also apparently inspiration for the Qunari?) looked down on merchants, as did many other societies. For the reason that the merchant dont "produce" anything in the traditional sense. Maybe the Qun see merchants as bas/things? Unless strictly controlled according to their own standards ofcourse.

The Qunari do not get "paid" for the work. They work because it is their duty. The Qunari equivalent of a merchant, is actually just a person who has to make sure that every Qunari is supplied and taken care materially. He does this because that is his duty. Nothing a Qunari does is for profit.

 

The Qunari do not look down on any class or role in their society. They would look down on a person who did not emobdy his role however. For instance if a person was obviously not giving his whole in fulfilling his role, they would look down on him for not providing his best.

But there is no "discrimination" between roles. The Arishok would lay down his life for any Qunari, regardless of role, IF the Qun demanded it.

[Halfdan The Menace]

They have no concept of currency. Their "wealth" is their conquered territories/resources, they don't barter/trade. The Qunari use their own system, planned economy and the Qun determine how many people will be in specific roles and duties, and once he/she have a role and a title/rank, he/she remain for that particular role until he/she dies or get promoted, or get turned into slave worker.

[Chronoreaper]

It be rare to see those promoted in the Qun except for a rare accurance such as with Sten(DA:O one) became the Arishok to replace the one killed in DA2 as they need those to lead those in the Qun

[azarhal]

It be rare to see those promoted in the Qun except for a rare accurance such as with Sten(DA:O one) became the Arishok to replace the one killed in DA2 as they need those to lead those in the Qun

 

Sten was promoted for reason unknown

Iron Bull was re-affected after his efficiency in his old role suffered

Tallis (that's a role) was demoted to an Athlok (laborer) after failing several missions (she is technically an Althlok in MoTA and not a Tallis).

 

The Qun is a meritocracy, members are probably re-affected all the time to fill in new roles or demands, well beside the Saarebas.

[The Ascendant]

There are mages in the Ben-Hassrath so I'd imagine that even Saarebas can rise in rank (I wonder how that works).

Where was this mentioned? Mages, sorry Saarebas in the Ben-Hassrath really? Never heard of that before.

[Chronoreaper]

yea i never heard of mages being in the Ben-Hassrath either didnt think it was possible with the Quns genocide views towards mages, also i think qunari can only change there roles if such as Tallis's role they cannot perform it to the extent required which then moves them to laberor or they're killed to take out the weakness or something like that only other way i can see them changing there roles by choice is if say farming had no hands on the fields due to a war that recently raged and hunting was near non existant due to already doing that then the Qun may offer a reformat to there roles if the individuals choose to change there role to better the Qun.

[mikeymoonshine]

Sten was promoted for reason unknown

Iron Bull was re-affected after his efficiency in his old role suffered

Tallis (that's a role) was demoted to an Athlok (laborer) after failing several missions (she is technically an Althlok in MoTA and not a Tallis).

 

The Qun is a meritocracy, members are probably re-affected all the time to fill in new roles or demands, well beside the Saarebas.

 

It's actually an interesting one. The Qunari believe all you can ever be is your role under the Qun. Sten comments in origins about how a farmer who became a merchant would still be a farmer so it seemed like roles could not be changed. Now we have all these examples of Qunari changing roles.  

 

The explanation for why Sten was promoted is simply that his role hasn't actually changed, he is still part of the Antaam he just has different duties. It makes some sense because what would the Qunari do when someone like the Arishok died if they couldn't promote someone else to that job?

 

I guess you could say the same about Iron Bull, he is still Ben-Hassrath, his role has just been adjusted. Tallis is a problem though, Athlok isn't a role under the Ariqun it's one under the Arigena,it's a completely different role. The only thing I can think of is that she was always going to be given a chance to earn her title back because that is who she is truly meant to be. 

 

I guess they do make those who do not embrace the Qun into slaves anyway so if she was failing to fulfill her role I guess using her for manual labour would not be against the Qun. 

[Chronoreaper]

though its possible that they treat those who are not Vossith(the species name i think for qunari) different despite they preach equality cause in truth its not something anyone can hide if you conquer others hell its possible they did it to eachother during the founding of the Qun

[Wulfram]

Central planning fails mostly for factors that have already been handwaved away to make the Qunari work.

 

Qunari people don't need the profit motive to work hard, they do it out of duty.  Qunari central planners won't be distracted by the whims of the leader or the need to protect their own jobs.

 

I assume their economy basically runs on "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".  There might be a small cash element just to avoid inconvenient micro-management, but essentially I would assume you'd live where you're put, work where you're sent and eat what you're given.

[azarhal]

It's actually an interesting one. The Qunari believe all you can ever be is your role under the Qun. Sten comments in origins about how a farmer who became a merchant would still be a farmer so it seemed like roles could not be changed. Now we have all these examples of Qunari changing roles.  

 

The explanation for why Sten was promoted is simply that his role hasn't actually changed, he is still part of the Antaam he just has different duties. It makes some sense because what would the Qunari do when someone like the Arishok died if they couldn't promote someone else to that job?

 

I guess you could say the same about Iron Bull, he is still Ben-Hassrath, his role has just been adjusted. Tallis is a problem though, Athlok isn't a role under the Ariqun it's one under the Arigena,it's a completely different role. The only thing I can think of is that she was always going to be given a chance to earn her title back because that is who she is truly meant to be. 

 

I guess they do make those who do not embrace the Qun into slaves anyway so if she was failing to fulfill her role I guess using her for manual labour would not be against the Qun. 

 

The Qunari do not kill unless the person is a danger to the Qun and the Qunari. They don't like to waste stuff. They even brainwash prisoners to make them work as laborers. They also always try to make sure all roles are fill, if more laborer are needed, they probably transfer people into those roles. I see them has quite flexible, otherwise their utopia can't be functional.

 

What do they do with a soldier who can't fight anymore? I hope they aren't all assigned to pick-up the weapons of the fallen. What do they do with elders who can still walk and lift things, but are too frail for their old roles?

 

As for Sten's comment about the farmer and merchant, the question wasn't about the farmer not being able to be a farmer anymore and having to be re-assigned. The question was about the farmer wanting to be a merchant. Not quite the same thing.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I think of the Qun as being similar to the armed forces. As long as you do your assigned job food, clothing, and shelter will be provided at no cost.

Do your job well and you may be promoted if a slot opens up. Refusing to do your job efficiently or at all will result in you being thrown out or imprisoned or possibly even killed.

 

There are huge differences though like the fact that soldiers actually get paid. Take that away however and it simply becomes slavery.

 

So that's what the Qunari economy is. Slavery to the Qun. Seems to be working quite well for them unfortunately. Obey or die.

[mikeymoonshine]

The Qunari do not kill unless the person is a danger to the Qun and the Qunari. They don't like to waste stuff. They even brainwash prisoners to make them work as laborers. They also always try to make sure all roles are fill, if more laborer are needed, they probably transfer people into those roles. I see them has quite flexible, otherwise their utopia can't be functional.

 

Yeah I know these things but it doesn't seem to fit the "you are your role" mentality. That said it does seem like they are able to do other jobs at least for a while if they need to. They are all able to fight to protect themselves and their homeland for example. 

 

What do they do with a soldier who can't fight anymore? I hope they aren't all assigned to pick-up the weapons of the fallen. What do they do with elders who can still walk and lift things, but are too frail for their old roles?

 

Older Qunari usually take up teaching roles and we know in the case of Iron Bull that they can be given totally different jobs if they being ineffective at the job they have. If they are completely incapable they are taken care of by the priesthood but allot of them apparently commit suicide because they can't handle having no purpose. 

 

 

As for Sten's comment about the farmer and merchant, the question wasn't about the farmer not being able to be a farmer anymore and having to be re-assigned. The question was about the farmer wanting to be a merchant. Not quite the same thing.

 

No it's not the same thing but it gave the impression that roles couldn't be changed or at least not easily. That doesn't seem to be completely true though. 

[Schreckstoff]

While I see how the Qunari empire could have a working economy it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as a country's based on capitalism. The only way to compete would be rapid expansion but too rapid expansion would spread the Qunari thin and shift the balance between new recruits and controlling party in an unfavourable way.

[Mistic]

I think of the Qun as being similar to the armed forces. As long as you do your assigned job food, clothing, and shelter will be provided at no cost.

Do your job well and you may be promoted if a slot opens up. Refusing to do your job efficiently or at all will result in you being thrown out or imprisoned or possibly even killed.

 

There are huge differences though like the fact that soldiers actually get paid. Take that away however and it simply becomes slavery.

 

So that's what the Qunari economy is. Slavery to the Qun. Seems to be working quite well for them unfortunately. Obey or die.

 

Interesting parallelism. It reminds me of the Turians in Mass Effect, with the whole society being just a big army, promotions and demotions being based on personal aptitude, duty and responsibility...

 

Of course, the Turians were the gentler aspect of this kind of militaristic society. They enjoyed a great deal of personal freedom, as long as their duties remained unaffected, somthing impossible under the Qun.

 

While I see how the Qunari empire could have a working economy it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as a country's based on capitalism. The only way to compete would be rapid expansion but too rapid expansion would spread the Qunari thin and shift the balance between new recruits and controlling party in an unfavourable way.

 

Well, yeah, but since cdapitalism doesn't exist in Thedas, I think the Qunari are safe for a long time in that regard.

[Schreckstoff]

Well, yeah, but since cdapitalism doesn't exist in Thedas, I think the Qunari are safe for a long time in that regard.

Guilds and crafts exist though which are a form of capitalism.