25 réponses à ce sujet

[Pateu]

In Dragon Age 2, the Nightmare difficulty boosts armor to ridiculous levels.

 

It reached the point where my 91% crit chance 300% crit damage Archer Hawke barely does any damage to enemies, on Nightmare.

 

That shouldn't happen. Those numbers are huge, yet because the difficulty boosts Armor to ridiculous levels and there is no armor penetration in the game ( and if it is I am yet to find any ) I can't do squat against bosses bar throw Mark on them and keep shooting at them for 15 minutes until their ridiculous health bars deplete.

 

This isn't a rant or anything, I am simply asking that Nightmare combat is tactically challenging rather than requiring you to keep aggro and shoot for half an hour.

 

Also, armor penetration should make a comeback- and not just as a 2h warrior spell.

[Maraas]

It reached the point where my 91% crit chance 300% crit damage Archer Hawke barely does any damage to enemies, on Nightmare.

Having that crit chance and damage hardly constitutes tactical brilliance anyway. Combining various talents and using cross-class combos is not exactly brilliant either, but still smarter than that. Just saying.

[Pateu]

Having that crit chance and damage hardly constitutes tactical brilliance anyway. Combining various talents and using cross-class combos is not exactly brilliant either, but still smarter than that. Just saying.

 

Thanks for bumping with a completely irrelevant post.

[Maraas]

Thanks for bumping with a completely irrelevant post.

Oh, but it's not. If you were using tactics the game provided, you wouldn't post that in the first place. Probably.

[Pateu]

Oh, but it's not. If you were using tactics the game provided, you wouldn't post that in the first place. Probably.

 

There's no armor penetration in the game.

 

Your best bet is to get the enemy in a Brittle state and shatter him, but that's 1 enemy out of a pack of 10.

[AlanC9]

This is only a boss problem, right?

[AkiKishi]

Theres only a couple of ways to make things more difficult. 

 

1. More of something

2. Something doing and taking less damage  

3. Any combination of the above 

 

Unless the battlefield is rigged it's not hard to outsmart the AI which leaves you with damage sponges. 

[Gileadan]

Maybe the AI should simply be less MMO-like, that might help with combat feeling more tactical.

 

Blackguards, for example, was a refreshing change from what has seemingly become standard fare for party based combat. That game didn't give a crap about MMO based concepts like "aggro" or "tanking".  The AI simply prioritized targets based on what it considered to be the most crippling blow to you - if it had ranged attackers who could get a shot at your healer, it would take it.  As a result, you got the feeling that your enemy was actively trying to kill you instead of being a horde of fools you could "aggro-manage" and conveniently "process" one by one.

[Pateu]

You'd kill bosses faster if you built your assassin better though..

 

My assassin is well built, though. It prioritises max dps, which is what an assassin should do. I don't need decoy/stealth/evasion because 

 

1) I have 80% dodge chance from cunning

 

2) I have good aggro management and CC from Anders/Varric/Aveline

 

3) I can dodge any melee attack by moving away

 

The damage I do with autoattacks is so high that using spells would be a waste, due to the massive amounts of crit I get.

 

With 91% crit and 300% crit dmg ( even higher with the blindside skill ) you deal much more damage than you would with Archer's Lance, the arrow AoEs or whatever.

 

 

 

That game didn't give a crap about MMO based concepts like "aggro" or "tanking".

 

Tanking and aggro need to be in the game.

 

They make tactics mean something.

 

 

 

Someone beat the Arishok in seconds on Nightmare

 

Yeah calling BS on that.

 

Not only does the Arishok have immunities and huge hp, he also heals himself like 3 times.

[Pateu]

He's using 2 sets of exploits, though. ( not one exploit, two! )

 

 

 

And the concept applied to normal equipment builds would probably still fare much better than the experience you have described.

 

I'm still fairly certain I have the best DPS build for an archer.

 

Perhaps a melee rogue would get better numbers, but that's irrelevant when armor kicks in.

 

My issue was that the -ARMOR- stat is too high, which simply makes physical damage shi t and can't be bypassed due to a lack of armor penetration.

[In Exile]

He's using 2 sets of exploits, though. ( not one exploit, two! )

 

 

 

 

I'm still fairly certain I have the best DPS build for an archer.

 

Perhaps a melee rogue would get better numbers, but that's irrelevant when armor kicks in.

 

My issue was that the -ARMOR- stat is too high, which simply makes physical damage shi t and can't be bypassed due to a lack of armor penetration.

 

A DPS archer build lives off the low raw damage numbers it creates. It's create for single target critters, but if you want massive damage on bosses you need to use assassinate. An archer rogue has to go shadow/assassin and have assassinate to be effective against bosses. 

 

A melee rogue is the most obscenely OP boss-killing class in that game, and while the archer does less damage using assassinate, the drop off isn't so substantial that you should be complaining to the extent that you are in the thread. 

 

So that makes me wonder, what exactly is your talent build? 

[Gileadan]

Tanking and aggro need to be in the game.

 

They make tactics mean something.

Well, it might be needed in *some* games because of hit point bloat and arbitrary class differences and lack of other tactical options. It needs to be in MMOs because MMO fights are generally all in an open area where you can't use any terrain features to your advantages. They're basically arena fights, so aggro management is all you have.

 

The aforementioned game allowed me to:

- let me my healer stand behind cover, like a pillar or something, that protected her from enemy archers while still allowing her line-of-sight on fighters she had to heal

- simply put her behind my biggest fighter for cover (the game didn't have hit point bloat and did not rely on huge enemy hordes to impress you - any enemy ignoring the big warrior while trying to kill the healer would be cut up quickly)

- cast a tactical stationary force field spell - portable magic cover!

- block chokepoints with traps

- put a trap right in front of her, and have her bait in enemy melee

- block a chokepoint with my dwarf warrior, and shoot and cast right over his head  

 

It can be done without aggro management, but the game must be designed from the start for that. You can't just remove the aggro concept from a game that has used it previously. So yeah, it can be done... it's just not easy, I suppose.

[Pateu]

A DPS archer build lives off the low raw damage numbers it creates. It's create for single target critters, but if you want massive damage on bosses you need to use assassinate. An archer rogue has to go shadow/assassin and have assassinate to be effective against bosses.

 

A melee rogue is the most obscenely OP boss-killing class in that game, and while the archer does less damage using assassinate, the drop off isn't so substantial that you should be complaining to the extent that you are in the thread. 

 

So that makes me wonder, what exactly is your talent build? 

 

In order to not lose my mind arguing with you, how the f*ck do you think I reached 300% crit damage?

 

Assassinate deals next to no damage on Nightmare bosses because

 

1) it's physical damage

2) bosses have very high armor counts that can't be reduced

[In Exile]

In order to not lose my mind arguing with you, how the f*ck do you think I reached 300% crit damage?

 

Assassinate deals next to no damage on Nightmare bosses because

 

1) it's physical damage

2) bosses have very high armor counts that can't be reduced

 

I don't see any need for this sort of rudeness.

 

Assassinate off a brittle target deals obscene damage. Are you using it right? Mark of Doom + Hex of Torment + Brittle, then assassinate? Because enemy damage resistance can easily be reduced?

 

If I have to, I'll open up DA2 to get numbers down because, again, you're completely wrong that A) physical damage is useless and B)that the rogue doesn't do obscene damage. 

[Al Foley]

On the whole of it it is the tactics which are important in any engagement in DA 2.  Which is something I cannot often execute so I do not normally play on Nightmare but I know, from reading the descriptions for the talents, that things like Archer's Lance does INSANE damage if you manage to do a cross class combo.  Some with a good many Archery abilities, some even sets it up.  Then you have Mark of Death.  Coincidentally I am watching or was watching...off and on...someone play on Nightmare difficulty and he didn't see to have many problems at all, minus the the Arishock, but it rarely took him fifteen minutes to deal with whole waves of enemies...minus the Arishock. 

[AkiKishi]

I'd say the build is far more important than the tactics. 

[Al Foley]

I'd say the build is far more important than the tactics. 

Aren't the two kind of interchangable?  If you have one build then that demands you do one thing tactically but if you do another build you have to do something else, and you have to make sure you are using the right tactics with your build to properly execute it. 

[AkiKishi]

Yes you can intentionally build a weaker character if you fancy a challenge.Or you can go some way to making a weaker character viable with decent tactics.

But nightmare with an optimised build is not so much a nightmare as a stroll.The rockwraith pathing is probably the worst part that I found. 

 

I find games without builds to be more tactical since your battling with a set parameter and how you use your troops is the determining factor. The newest Fire Emblem is a case in point. Get everyone of your next generation second wind and the game becomes a joke. 

Builds are kind of like playing the system for disadvantages.

[The Baconer]

Absolutely, you can never have too many status effects.

[Mockingword]

Lol.

 

Penetration.

[Gtdef]

If you use dlc pack items the game is ****** easy. I literally beat the game with a dw rogue by just autoattacking. Get shadow spec, varric to spam chameleon's breath and fatiguing fog, anders for heals, heroic aura and haste, boost dexterity to 60 (with dlc items and buffs that's about 100% crit), rest to cun and just melt through everything by using nature or spirit mainhand daggers and jarvia's shank for offhand (stats are insane on this dagger).

 

I destroyed the ancient rock wraith with just autoattacking. Remove tactics by Self:any->wait, hack away slowly till he breaks down, then enable tactics again, load haste, hex of vulnerability, chameleons breath with spirit daggers and spirit staves, and melt him in 15 secs. Getting lightning resistance on you and varric is good too, but optional.

 

Then get assassinate and 3shot the arishok. With a nature dagger, drop decoy, mark of death, assassinate, twin fangs and load the explosive strike. If he doesn't die he will be left with 10% health. Just spin around the pillars till you have your cds again, and kill him.

 

I crit the damn genlock alpha for 42k + 21k assassinate and for corypheus fight, got fire resistance for everyone (except bethany, doesn't have rune slots so I used barrier). 1 assassinate gets him down to 70%, so only thing i have to do is to tank the flames, kill the demons, assassinate corypheus, repeat.

 

Same thing pretty much with sword and shield warrior. Assault and scatter crit for ridiculous amounts of damage and sns actually does more autoattack damage than 2h and it's easier to exploit the movement of bosses to avoid damage due to faster attack animations. It's just the matter of having the right elemental weapons and every single boss fight becomes trivial.

 

 

So yea, armor penetration isn't really gonna fix a game that you can exploit and go through armor and through boss tactics. If you want to make it more tactical, make autoattacking a small part of the damage, make skills do a lot more damage but with hard limitations on range and aoe diameter, make boss tactics unavoidable by 1 resistance rune and balance the game around it. Force us to have to move the party away from the aoe and use our skills the optimal time, with stacked debuffs or cross class goodness. 

[AlanC9]

 

Blackguards, for example, was a refreshing change from what has seemingly become standard fare for party based combat. That game didn't give a crap about MMO based concepts like "aggro" or "tanking".  The AI simply prioritized targets based on what it considered to be the most crippling blow to you - if it had ranged attackers who could get a shot at your healer, it would take it.  As a result, you got the feeling that your enemy was actively trying to kill you instead of being a horde of fools you could "aggro-manage" and conveniently "process" one by one.

 

How do you keep the AI from doing that, anyway? What's the countermove?

[Gileadan]

How do you keep the AI from doing that, anyway? What's the countermove?

Taking cover behind suitable terrain, or casting a stationary forcefield, putting out traps, blocking choke points, creating improvised barricades (usually by toppling over a bunch of crates).  That said, the game was designed from ground up for making use of the terrain for tactics. Also, characters and enemies couldn't take that many hits, so enemies trying to sprint through your fighters to get to the healer would usually only get there heavily wounded and die quickly to your damage dealers.  You could also give your casters skill in dodging to avoid incoming attacks (of course, XP spent for dodging was XP not spent for spells -. that was all for you to decide). If you kept the healer in cover, the AI would often go for someone they *could* reach instead. Or you could take a penalty to spell casting cost, and put your casters in something more resilient than cloth.

 

That said, you could easily build a completely inefficient party in that game, and it was far from perfect. But it's not impossible to have tactical combat without the usual crowd control feature that uses an internal aggro list. Whether it would work for a DA game, I'm not certain. I just thought it was something to consider.