76 réponses à ce sujet

[RedCaesar97]

I find it kind of weird to be asking for build advice since I am usually someone who is giving the build advice.

 

Anyway, I am bringing what should be my final Vanguard through Mass Effect 2. I am just not sure how I want to build this guy yet, although I have decided to take the Claymore as the bonus weapon.

 

I am about to start Mordin's Recruiment mission and my level 6 build looks like this:

 

1 - Incendiary Ammo

0 - Cryo ammo

4 - Heavy Charge

0 - Shockwave

0 - Pull

1 - Assault Mastery

1 - Slam

 

Now, my original intent since I was going to take the Claymore was to build the typical Charge-heavy Vanguard: Heavy Charge, Champion/Destroyer, Inferno Ammo, then probably Squad Cryo Ammo and probably keep Slam,

 

But I already did that and if I wanted to do it again, I would just play NG+ with the same guy.

 

So then I thought, what about giving him Reave as a bonus power and turn him into a sort of Adept-that-can-charge:

1 - Incendiary Ammo

0 - Cryo Ammo

4 - Heavy Charge (or change it later to Area Charge for giggles)

4 - Pull Field

4 - Improved Shockwave

4 - Champion

4 - Area Reave (I can wear Power Damage armor to make up for the lost power damage from Champion)

 

But that is nowhere near as useful as dropping just 1 point into Stasis and putting the extra points into Incendiary Ammo. And I already did that with another Vanguard (which happens to be my personal favorite) and I can always boot that back up again. And it would probably make me just want to play a proper Adept anyway.

 

 

So what do you people think? Should I stick with the traditional Charge-heavy Vanguard, or should I go for a more Adept-like build?

 

Additional info: I will be importing this guy into ME3 to become my official Chargless NovaGuard that uses Shockwave, Reave, Nova, and Incendiary Ammo, and probably the Claymore, among other shotguns. 

[KrrKs]

What difficulty are you playing on?

Since you want to turn him into a chargeless Novaguard, I'd probably take the adept-like build (Area Charge, Area Reave).

 

As for your planned ME3 build: (I haven't tried this yet, but plan do in one of my next runs)

How about switching Reave against exploding barrier: IE get a bit DR from barrier on your way to the enemy->blast barrier->immediately blast nova

The window should be small enough to get BEs and you have 2 (or 3) similar looking blast in a quick succescion.

 

Barrier might not give the protection or utility of Reave, but I imagine it to look ridiculous -having a bunch of enemies floating around you and exploding...

[a_mouse]

It sounds like you are leaning toward the Adept-like build (which you intend to carry over to ME3 as a chargeless character anyway).  If so, why not skip to the chase and build a quasi-chargeless ME2 Vanguard?  

 

Sounds nuts, but here me out.  If you are taking the Claymore, you are basically looking for a CQ build.  There are three ways to achieve the necessary mobility - enhanced movement (Charge), enhanced protection (Charge, Barrier, Reave, ED), or Control (Stasis, strip + immobilization).  Of these, the Control approach is the most Adept-like, and synergistic with pull, shockwave, and immobilizing ammo powers (and future use of Nova).  So the thought here would be to basically focus on Stasis as the essential class power using up most of your cooldowns, while taking advantage of level 4 immobilizating ammo powers (which the Adept does not get to do).  Level 30 might look something like this:

 

10: Inferno ammo (because it is synergistic with Claymore).

10: Squad cryo (cuz I know you like it, and hey, the added CC doesn't hurt either)

3: Charge (purely for teleportation, and to unlock Shockwave and Pull)

6: Shockwave

10: Pull Field

10: Passive

1: Stasis

1: (unassigned)

 

Now add some stripper squadmates (including a Warper), and you are set.  Control 'n Clobber!  

 

That's one idea anyway.  If you do it, post vids!  (I'm trying to picture what happens if you strip, freeze, field-pull, and then shockwave a group of mooks - maybe you can help me visualize that…)

 

ps.  My suggestion above is partly inspired by this vid of Fortack's blue-haired quasi-Adept (of which you are no doubt already aware). 

[RedCaesar97]

What difficulty are you playing on?

Since you want to turn him into a chargeless Novaguard, I'd probably take the adept-like build (Area Charge, Area Reave).

 

As for your planned ME3 build: (I haven't tried this yet, but plan do in one of my next runs)

How about switching Reave against exploding barrier: IE get a bit DR from barrier on your way to the enemy->blast barrier->immediately blast nova

The window should be small enough to get BEs and you have 2 (or 3) similar looking blast in a quick succescion.

 

Barrier might not give the protection or utility of Reave, but I imagine it to look ridiculous -having a bunch of enemies floating around you and exploding...

 

I will be playing on Insanity.

 

I tried a Barrier-blasting Vanguard in ME3, but you cannot really do it, at least you cannot do it consistently or as effectively as you want. Purging your Barrier actually blasts enemies away from you, so you actually have to chase them down if you want to use Nova. Releasing Barrier actually has an animation like the Asari kits in multiplayer, so you have a delay and are not able to use nova immediately.

 

And sometimes you get your shields shot off running in, meaning you have no barrier left to use Nova.

 

Reave is better since you can hit multiple enemies (and it can stagger them) before you charge in.

[RedCaesar97]

@a_mouse.

 

I will take your suggestions in mind.

 

Some issues when using Squad Cryo Ammo with biotics: is that it can drop enemies prematurely out of the pull, and Shockwave does not affect frozen enemies. So if I want to use more biotic powers than just Charge, I want to avoid using Cryo Ammo.

[a_mouse]

Some issues when using Squad Cryo Ammo with biotics: is that it can drop enemies prematurely out of the pull, and Shockwave does not affect frozen enemies. 

I know about the wonky behavior with pull (I usually find to be OK after enemies are entirely frozen), but did not know about the problem with Shockwave.  Bummer, seems like a missed opportunity there on game developers part.

[RedCaesar97]

I know about the wonky behavior with pull (I usually find to be OK after enemies are entirely frozen), but did not know about the problem with Shockwave.  Bummer, seems like a missed opportunity there on game developers part.

 

Yeah, Throw works on frozen enemies but Shockwave does not. I have a video of it here.

[a_mouse]

Yeah, Throw works on frozen enemies but Shockwave does not. I have a video of it here.

Ugh. Does it always do that, or just sometimes?  Also, what happens if you lift 'em up first with pull, and then shockwave them?  

[a_mouse]

OK, just tried this idea out lat night on DCS (since I was there anyway…) and sure enough Cryo + Shockwave is pretty disappointing.  Actually, Shockwave in general is pretty disappointing (I've not used it much, and now am reminded why).  It tends to scatter enemies around, but not kill them, leaving them to come back and haunt you.  With Pull Field, I think it is actually more effective to lift a group and then detonate a warp bomb, Field Throw (off a squadmate), or just shoot them while they are hanging there right above you.  

 

OK, so how about this. Take Dominate at level 10, and go for a puppet build.  The basic idea would be to start at range, strip and dominate a thrall.  When all protected enemies near it are distracted, strip them with weapons, and then Field Pull them, finishing with WB.  Alternatively, when all enemies are focussed on thrall, and before they can react to you, Charge in and set ablaze with Claymore.   Overall a more balanced and adaptable approach that can probably be adapted to ME3.  

[capn233]

If you want to get a headstart on a Chargeless Vanguard, you need to just bite the bullet with Area Reave.  It probably has the second best synergy with the Claymore after Charge anyway.

 

To me, Stasis makes more sense if you are playing a more traditional Charge - Claymore ME2 Vanguard since it basically is there to improve the damage to minibosses.  There is no area stasis in ME2 so you aren't going to get really any mileage out of it CC wise.

[a_mouse]

Part of the problem with building a Chargeless Vanguard in ME2 is the unlock system.  To level up Pull Field requires burning 6 points in Charge and Shockwave.  So if you want Area Reave by the time you get the Claymore on the DCS, it means no Inferno.  Or if you take Inferno, you can't have a fully leveled Reave until late game.  Of course you can give up Pull Field and level Inferno and Reave first.  But now you are basically just a Soldier with Reave for most of the game...

 

My thinking with Stasis is that you only need one point in it.  So by the time you get a Claymore you can have fully leveled Pull Field and Inferno Ammo.  If squad is stripping, and you are pulling, then you can afford more frequent use of Stasis (not just for mini bosses but to put one fully protected enemy on hold while you deal with others).  

[capn233]

You get more mileage against mooks spamming Area Reave compared to locking one down with Stasis.

 

I would indeed level it more like a Soldier though.  Concentrate first on getting Area Reave, then level up Assault Mastery and Incendiary to Inferno.  Most of this has to do with the fact that Shockwave and Pull aren't particularly amazing in and of themselves.  Going chargeless means the character isn't going to feel like a Vanguard anyway, so I don't care that he feels more like a Soldier than an Adept (although I would feel a lot more like an Adept if I had Throw or Singularity).

 

The other issue is that if you are not using Charge in ME2 you aren't going to be able to stay out of cover as much with practically any power relative to Reave.  Of course if you actually want to play Vanguard as a Shockwave caster, then the build will get funky.  The issue with Cryo is already documented and overall Shockwave probably takes more away from a chargeless Vanguard in ME2 than it does in 3.

 

I don't remember what level you usually are on DCC, but as long as you can level to Area Reave, Inferno, Squad Cryo and probably max passive you will be set.  If you can get some ranks in Pull via the upgrade chain, then that would be a bonus.

 

If you definitely want Area Pull, then a compromise might be to switch builds between Blood Pack, melee creature and Collector Missions compared to most mainline missions.  Max Cryo to Squad for the former, and drop Cryo for Area Pull for the latter.

[a_mouse]

I don't remember what level you usually are on DCC, but as long as you can level to Area Reave, Inferno, Squad Cryo and probably max passive you will be set.  If you can get some ranks in Pull via the upgrade chain, then that would be a bonus.

Depends on DLC completion, but usually around 20 (which means 41 points to spend).  So of the two possible Claymore wielders, a Vanguard actually has an advantage over Soldier in being able to fully level Inferno without wasting points in Disruptor.  At level 20 you can have Inferno, Squad Cryo, Area Reave, full passive, plus a point in Charge (just for teleportation).  It would basically be a protection-based CQ build with Reave instead of Charge as main protection power.  Not really very Adept-like, however.  You'd also need to be comfortable working in the health pool a lot.

[RedCaesar97]

Well I am kind of stuck with Heavy Charge until I finish Horizon (just recruited Mordin last night), so I probably will play it more charge-heavy until after Horizon and I can respec.

 

I suppose I could edit my save and reset my talent points. I am going to edit my save anyway to give myself more minerals so I do not have to spend hours planet scanning.

 

I do not want to drop Charge entirely off this build. Since I am on Xbox, I am actually kind of stuck with Charge as a power (signature power is always mapped to the Y button and you cannot change it, unlike in ME3). I may be able to change that by modifying the game save, but I am not entirely sure if I can do that.

[Arkalezth]

I usually do the collector ship at 15 or so, in order to get the new weapon ASAP.

My last vanguard was the typical Inferno/Cryo/Charge/Passive one, with Stasis as a bonus (I often take Slam instead). I didn't notice such a great difference between 1 and 4 Stasis, so if I played him again, I'd probably leave it at 1 (or 2 if I had some points to spare at the end) and get basic Pull as well to make up for the lack of Slam. I guess you could ignore Cryo and get Pull Field alternatively, or don't max Charge if you only want it to move around.

I didn't test it cause I was almost finished when I thought of it, but I think that'd be a good all-purpose build. Charge as the primary ability, Pull for explosions and Stasis for YMIRs and other annoying things.

[capn233]

Well I am kind of stuck with Heavy Charge until I finish Horizon (just recruited Mordin last night), so I probably will play it more charge-heavy until after Horizon and I can respec.

 

I suppose I could edit my save and reset my talent points. I am going to edit my save anyway to give myself more minerals so I do not have to spend hours planet scanning.

 

I do not want to drop Charge entirely off this build. Since I am on Xbox, I am actually kind of stuck with Charge as a power (signature power is always mapped to the Y button and you cannot change it, unlike in ME3). I may be able to change that by modifying the game save, but I am not entirely sure if I can do that.

 

When I was fooling around with the talent calculator the one with maxed Reave, IA, CA and passive had 2 in Charge, Shockwave and Pull.

 

I don't really know a good way to make an Adept that can charge with Reave and the Claymore honestly.  I don't think you get the right synergy between the Vanguard skillset, especially if you are talking Claymore.

[a_mouse]

If you go quasi-Chargeless, I think you basically need to decide up front whether you want to focus on protection or control.  If protection, then Reave or Barrier (probably Reave is better as long as you don't mind the dulled senses while in health pool). If control, then Dominate or Stasis.  Of theses, capn233 makes good point that Stasis is limited to one enemy.  After thinking about this some more, I am actually intrigued by the idea of Dominate here.  It takes longer to set up, but once a good thrall is active it will suck a large number of protected enemies into its sphere of influence, leaving a lot of time and freedom to set up AOE damage combos involving Inferno ammo + low level Charge, Pull Field, and/or Shockwave. Add some strippers to squad and I think you might be able to do a lot of damage…but maybe you are bored of puppet master by now!

 

Anyway, here's my lame attempt at a "Adept-that-can-Charge" Vanguard with Claymore, Inferno Ammo, Pull Field, Shockwave, and Stasis (DCS minus Praetorian sequence):

 

 

As you can see, Shockwave has its humorous moments.  But in the end I'm not sure how effective it really is.  Its hard to predict exactly what its going to do.  Sometimes things go in your favor, other times not so much.  But maybe that's part of the fun.

[RedCaesar97]

After thinking about this some more, I am actually intrigued by the idea of Dominate here.  It takes longer to set up, but once a good thrall is active it will suck a large number of protected enemies into its sphere of influence, leaving a lot of time and freedom to set up AOE damage combos involving Inferno ammo + low level Charge, Pull Field, and/or Shockwave. Add some strippers to squad and I think you might be able to do a lot of damage…but maybe you are bored of puppet master by now!

 

There is this thread by HadesNexus a Vanguard with Dominate was discussed. 

I played a couple of missions based on the proposed build and recorded the results:

Dominate Vanguard part 1.

Dominate Vanguard part 2.

 

I do not think I want to go that route with this character.

 

And for the record, this is probably my favorite Vanguard build:

4 - Inferno Ammo

0 - Cryo Ammo

4 - Heavy Charge

4 - Improved Shockwave

4 - Pull Field

4 - Champion

1 - Stasis

 * Sniper Rifle bonus talent.

 

But I have done that a few times and am looking for something a little different. I think I may go with my first build idea (charge, pull, shockwave and reave). The issue of course, is how I will use Reave. I am thinking of using it as sort of an area defense-stripping Warp, for the occasions where I want to strip Barriers/Armor quickly, then have a squadmate Pull, then I can Shockwave or Charge in, or have another squadmate Warp-bomb it if I have that option.

[a_mouse]

^Nice thread (and demo of this idea on your part!). 

 

Anyway, back to your Reave build.  If it were me I'd probably take Heavy Reave, and use it mostly on debuffed enemies for protection (since you are not replenishing barrier with Charge as much as usual), or for single-target barrier/armor removal.  The problem with Area Reave is the small radius.  In practice I find that enemies are not often that close to each other that you get much benefit, except situationally.  If you want AOE, better to reave off one guy's barrier, then squadmate pull-warp (which has 5 or 7 m radius, depending how you evolve it). By this time you are coming off your own cooldown and can close in using Charge or by Reave-draining one of the resulting debuffed enemies, or (if continuing a ranged AOE attack) Shockwave or Area-Pull some of them (or both in combination).  I also think using nonspecific artillery strikes (AOE stripping + ranged AOE attacks) might get kinda boring after a (shortish) while.

 

I am guessing that Heavy vs. Area Reave has already been discussed to death somewhere on these forums (to which I am relatively new), and in all likelihood you helped author them!  If so, my apologies for (once again!) retreading old territory...

[capn233]

It isn't too difficult to get multiple targets with Area Reave.  No it won't always get multiple guys, but you can, especially at chokes.

 

But more importantly you have enough damage to strip basic armor with the Area evo, which makes certain missions like Derelict Reaper significantly easier.  Especially if you run Squad Cryo Ammo there.

[Arkalezth]

Samara needs Heavy Reave in order to strip a collector's barrier at level 30 (I'm not sure about other enemies, and Area works up until that level), but I believe that's not a problem for Shepard.

[a_mouse]

I recently ran some tests on Area vs. Heavy Reave to better understand the health boost.  For a biotically upgraded Vanguard on Insanity, Heavy Reave provides a 92% 104% boost in max health after hitting one enemy (sequential hits on the same or additional targets does not increase this). In contrast, Area Reave provides a 67% 76% boost in max health*.  This does not increase when you hit multiple target with its AOE.  The single target damage of Heavy Reave is also about 40% higher than Area Reave.  Here's some annotated footage:

 

 

Thus if your goal is mostly protection (for CQC), Heavy is probably a better choice.  This vid also illustrates the limited radius of Area Reave (vs. an unstable warp bomb) for stripping and incapacitating groups.  Obviously this is a matter of personal preference.  However facing husks is so infrequent (and there are so many other effective ways to deal with them), I probably would not take Area Reave just based on that.  

 

(*numbers edited so as to correct a bug in ME2 that caused the Champion bonus not to be accounted for properly during the test).

[RedCaesar97]

If I recall, Area Reave has a 3 meter radius, same as Area Overload, (Area) Incineration Blast, Full (Area) Cryo Blast, Wide Singularity, Area Energy Drain, and pretty much any power with a radius evolution with a few exceptions.

 

I ran my own Reave tests a few years ago, and I thought Area Reave was better.

 

If you are comparing it on the Disabled Collector Ship, then the enemies tend not to bunch up there unlike other missions.

[cap and gown]

Samara needs Heavy Reave in order to strip a collector's barrier at level 30 (I'm not sure about other enemies, and Area works up until that level), but I believe that's not a problem for Shepard.

 

Is this with the 5/5 biotic upgrade? Or the 6/6?

[Arkalezth]

I can't confirm it 100% because I learned about it ages ago, but I'm pretty sure it was 6/6. I generally ignore the firewalker missions nowadays, so I'm not likely to have a save where I can test it.

Edit: Check this post: http://forum.bioware...usks/?p=5671026