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Giving DA:O another try


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#51
AlanC9

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I always got the enemy, but the AOE is so large is often hit my own pc. Ex: blizzard. The gameplay is just poor. DA2 greatly improved it at least. If you don't agree then there's nothing I can say to change your mind.


Surely after one or two casts you could figure out the size of the AoEs. Is this something that's harder on consoles, maybe?

#52
DarthGizka

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I always got the enemy, but the AOE is so large is often hit my own pc. Ex: blizzard. The gameplay is just poor. DA2 greatly improved it at least. If you don't agree then there's nothing I can say to change your mind.

 

Except for Storm of the Century and Paralysis Explosion, the AoE indicator shows exactly where the area of effect is going to be. That makes it possible to place the other spells within an inch of precision, despite their much larger AoE.

 

Paralysis Explosion and Storm of the Century aren't much more difficult and can be placed with the same precision, once you realise that the diameter of the AoE indicator can show how close its edge (PE) or centre (SotC) can be to the caster while keeping them just outside the AoE. It's pretty much exactly like Kitty said.

 

It only gets difficult if the terrain is uneven and there are no characters around to gauge the actual AoE. If you move the targetting indicator until a toon gets highlighted and then back a bit until the toon goes dark again, then that character will be just outside the AoE.

 

The only AoE damage spells without an exact indicator or built-in measuring tool are Walking Bomb and Virulent Walking Bomb.

 

If you want to live dangerously, cast an AoE spell on a moving enemy.



#53
Blazomancer

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The only major difference between the AoE spells of Origins and DA2 was that there was no friendly fire for any difficulty below nightmare in DA2. Was that a good thing?

#54
Elhanan

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I enjoy FF; dislike random Immunities for everything (eg; all Mabari immune to fire). Never played Nightmare on DA2 because of this.

#55
DarthGizka

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Same here - I dislike enemies with lists of immunities and resistances as long as your arm, almost all of which exist only to frustrate mages.

 

But what I hate with a passion is the ever-present gratuitous spell resistance. The game system has dodge, so they could fsck things up a bit for physical fighters as well, and their spell-like abilities and stuns could reasonably be made subject to spell resistance. But they aren't, even though dodge is nowhere near as bad for a fighter as spell resistance is for a (soloing) mage.

 

The problem with spell resistance is that elites and bosses tend to have a lot of it. Runs of three or four resisted spells in a row aren't particularly rare, and two resisted spells in a row occur in most battles at least once. Against bosses like Piotin and Jarvia - hard hitters with a hard-hitting entourage - a double spell resist almost always means certain death. Not to mention that something like Nightmare flies only if you can cast a chain of four to five spells without any of the spells being gratuitously resisted. Meaning that full success is so rare that you can mark the day red in your calendar (as yesterday against the spider queen, w00t).

 

Today I had to fight Piotin again, in the name of science. His troops were erased, his health was down to the tiniest sliver of red - about an Arcane Bolt's worth - and he was some twenty metres away. Ajira was at 100% HP. Four resisted spells later she was dead.

 

This could have been avoid with distribution shaping (like a 2d6 instead of the roughly similar 1d12), or by cheating as they did with stuns. If they can shorten the duration of repeat stuns to one fourth, then they could gently decrease the probability of outliers to avoid things like a bugger who resists four spells in a row on the strength of 5% spell resist. Not to mention the really big cheats, like instant auto-hit abilities. If you start casting Mind Blast when a wolf is ten, fifteen metres away then the beast can run the remaining distance, decide to overwhelm, and win.



#56
congokong

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The only major difference between the AoE spells of Origins and DA2 was that there was no friendly fire for any difficulty below nightmare in DA2. Was that a good thing?

Really?  How about that there is no blizzard spell at all in DA2? Or earthquake? Or what about the changes to death cloud where instead of doing simple damage it targets an individual with drops in attack, attack speed, enemy defense, movement speed, damage resistance, and a chance of paralysis/sleep/stun? Or that you can no longer be knocked on your ass from AOE spells? Or that fire storm is 10 falling fire balls in DA2 while in DA:O it's some moving fire tornado?



#57
Elhanan

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No FF means not being hurt by your own spells. But if one takes the time to look at where spells are being cast, the same usually occurs. Blaming the spells for what appears to be poor tactical choices is seemingly poor sportsmanship.

#58
congokong

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No FF means not being hurt by your own spells. But if one takes the time to look at where spells are being cast, the same usually occurs. Blaming the spells for what appears to be poor tactical choices is seemingly poor sportsmanship.

Considering how your companions just charge into a the fray against a cluster of enemies, I'd find it hard to not commit friendly fire. And yet, I've always been a casual Dragon Age player so I'm sure people really into it work around that.

 

There were many instances where the area was cramped enough that an AOE spell would cover the entire room with me in it. Or if enemies were right on me and running wouldn't help casting an AOE spell would keep us all immobile while at least hurting them.



#59
AlanC9

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Really?  How about that there is no blizzard spell at all in DA2? Or earthquake? Or what about the changes to death cloud where instead of doing simple damage it targets an individual with drops in attack, attack speed, enemy defense, movement speed, damage resistance, and a chance of paralysis/sleep/stun? Or that you can no longer be knocked on your ass from AOE spells? Or that fire storm is 10 falling fire balls in DA2 while in DA:O it's some moving fire tornado?


His point was that AoEs work the same way, not that every spell mechanic was the same.

#60
AlanC9

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Considering how your companions just charge into a the fray against a cluster of enemies, I'd find it hard to not commit friendly fire. And yet, I've always been a casual Dragon Age player so I'm sure people really into it work around that.


If you don't want them charging, hit the hold position button.

There were many instances where the area was cramped enough that an AOE spell would cover the entire room with me in it. Or if enemies were right on me and running wouldn't help casting an AOE spell would keep us all immobile while at least hurting them.


Can't cast Fireball in a closet? Gosh. How terrible.
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#61
Ironman Gaming

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Same here - I dislike enemies with lists of immunities and resistances as long as your arm, almost all of which exist only to frustrate mages.

 

But what I hate with a passion is the ever-present gratuitous spell resistance. The game system has dodge, so they could fsck things up a bit for physical fighters as well, and their spell-like abilities and stuns could reasonably be made subject to spell resistance. But they aren't, even though dodge is nowhere near as bad for a fighter as spell resistance is for a (soloing) mage.

 

The problem with spell resistance is that elites and bosses tend to have a lot of it. Runs of three or four resisted spells in a row aren't particularly rare, and two resisted spells in a row occur in most battles at least once. Against bosses like Piotin and Jarvia - hard hitters with a hard-hitting entourage - a double spell resist almost always means certain death. Not to mention that something like Nightmare flies only if you can cast a chain of four to five spells without any of the spells being gratuitously resisted. Meaning that full success is so rare that you can mark the day red in your calendar (as yesterday against the spider queen, w00t).

 

Today I had to fight Piotin again, in the name of science. His troops were erased, his health was down to the tiniest sliver of red - about an Arcane Bolt's worth - and he was some twenty metres away. Ajira was at 100% HP. Four resisted spells later she was dead.

 

This could have been avoid with distribution shaping (like a 2d6 instead of the roughly similar 1d12), or by cheating as they did with stuns. If they can shorten the duration of repeat stuns to one fourth, then they could gently decrease the probability of outliers to avoid things like a bugger who resists four spells in a row on the strength of 5% spell resist. Not to mention the really big cheats, like instant auto-hit abilities. If you start casting Mind Blast when a wolf is ten, fifteen metres away then the beast can run the remaining distance, decide to overwhelm, and win.

 

Does Paralytic Explosion break through spell resistance?  I know Winter's Grasp can still freeze (and stop) mobs for a few secs even if they resist the spell and don't take damage.  Maybe others, would have to look through the list.

 

Mages should've probably been given something to lower spell resistance, but they're so overpowered already that anything to make them stronger seems unnecessary...Also, a warrior who's a templar built to destroy mages, I believe should be able to make things extremely hard/near impossible for the mage since that's their whole goal in life...Just my thoughts.



#62
Ironman Gaming

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Considering how your companions just charge into a the fray against a cluster of enemies, I'd find it hard to not commit friendly fire. And yet, I've always been a casual Dragon Age player so I'm sure people really into it work around that.

 

There were many instances where the area was cramped enough that an AOE spell would cover the entire room with me in it. Or if enemies were right on me and running wouldn't help casting an AOE spell would keep us all immobile while at least hurting them.

 

Did you play on the console and at lower resolutions?  I find playing most/any games in lower rez seems to make the play field just too small...



#63
Elhanan

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As others have noted, using Hold is a valuable tactic which can be utilized when casting the larger AoE spells.

When forced into crowded locations, spells such as Mind Blast, Glyph of Repulsion, Stonefist, and other Crowd Control spells are usful; and Force Field on yourself gains a short breather to regroup.

I am not an expert gamer; simply one with hundreds of hours of experience using the Tactics, mechanics, spells, etc. Went from Normal difficulty to pseudo-solo Nightmare. Yes; the latter can be tough, but that is the point after a score of playthroughs.

#64
Ironman Gaming

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I just replayed the fight with Piotin with my first mage with bad spell choices and he does resist a bit of spells...The main tactic I use however is paralytic explosion which hits well enough, then inferno and force field myself after I unload all my spells and wait for the cooldown timer...

 

If he isn't paralyzed, then usually something like mind blast, fireball, cone of cold (my char didn't have this), winter's grasp or something else will hit...If not, at that level, you should have plenty of hit points to survive sitting in an inferno for a while to at least cast that and follow up with force field on yourself so even if he resists a good chunk of the damage, his minions will probably be dead already.

 

Can't force field him with the bug fix mod...



#65
Elhanan

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It has been a long time, but if you are playing an Arcane Warrior spellcaster, having high Dodge gear and a good S&S combo for close melee can be valuable as Plan B against foes like Piotin. At the least, this should give time for spell power to recharge, to tactically retreat, and try again.

But pls search for confirmation on Dodge and AW; may be getting mechanics mixed after this long away from the game.

#66
Blazomancer

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@congokong - Not my point. I meant the general mechanics behind the AoE spells as a whole. Each one of them affected a circular area, had some form of damage over time (be it the ticks of Hemorrhage or zaps of Tempest), and/or a secondary effect like paralysis, freeze, knockback, et al. The difference in DA2 was that the friendly fire component of the spell damage and the secondary effects were absent in every difficulty bar nightmare.

There's an argument to be made here about why we need a concept like FF at all, if it's not scaled smoothly across difficulties. It's ultimately Bioware's decision what they want to do, but the question is still valid. Why not shift the no–FF option to the other end of the spectrum, i.e. casual, and have a scaling factor for the other difficulties. I believe a lot of folks here in the forums agree with this sentiment; at least the modders who tried to mod this in would.

The only thing that I find silly in Origins regarding the matter is that the secondary effects were still present in Casual difficulty. For example, Fireball would still knock allies failing a resistance check down. But I don't think the combat in DA2 was superior to Origins. I could probably write a whole essay on what was wrong with the combat in DA2. At the same time, I could do the same about the many things that DA2 got right. That's not to say that combat in either game was trash; opinions vary simply because people like different sort of gameplay - some prefer faster paced arcade-ish combat, while some prefer a bit more realism. Hopefully we'll get the best of both worlds in Inquisition.
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#67
congokong

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I criticize the combat from my experience and hence people throw tactics at me to avoid some of my issues, but they're missing the point. I shouldn't need to become an expert at DA:O to potentially, but not likely, have fun with the gameplay. From my subjective experience gameplay in DA:O sucked. From combat to leveling mechanics it was poorly done. I feel DA2 improved on it.



#68
Elhanan

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In my experience as a Twitchless, low reflex Player that began on Normal difficulty, it was not hard at all to play this game. Subjectively, it is my second favorite game of this century.

Perchance the flawed mechanic was not inside the game at all, but was operating it.
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#69
Blazomancer

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@congokong - That's why there are five different difficulty options. You can simply play at Casual mode to disable friendly fire damage. You don't need to become an expert at all, no sir. Bioware took it one step further in DA2 and made it possible to play the game effortlessly for a non-expert even in Hard mode. It'd be very nice if they got rid of the difficulty modes altogether.

I surely agree that the talent trees in DA2 was an improvement over Origin's linear design. But pray tell me what improvement did you find in the attribute progression system. It was rigid as hell and provided hardly any space for customization.

#70
congokong

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I did play on casual.



#71
Ironman Gaming

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I did play on casual.

 

That's really fine...At the end of the day, people simply like different things out of life/tv shows/movies/games whatever and if DA:O just didn't do it for you, move on.  Whatever the reason, it wasn't your thing and it's probably a waste of everyone's time to try to convince you otherwise...

 

or you trying to convince people that Skyrim was all that...

 

I never played Skyrim yet, but it sounds like some people actually don't like the whole open world freedom...

 

Again, different strokes for different folks.  Waste of time to convince anyone on the Internet anything really...

 

I played the Witcher (1st one) and didn't find the combat that great...no idea if that was considered a good combat game...maybe I didn't play it enough to get good at it...Played Dark Souls and combat was fun (action oriented), but after a bit, I suppose it was more about timing overall (to say be able to parry anything).

 

I think some people also have different preferences like I don't like the 1st person combat as much like Skyrim since looks a little like a FPS.  DA:O probably appeals to my 3rd person isometric and turn based game playing bias...


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#72
Elhanan

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A bit OT, but Skyrim can be played in 3rd person; my first 70 hrs were used confirming this. I eventually discovered that it was easier to target some things in 1st person, so after that I mixed it up a bit. Now I have 2800+ hrs invested, and am taking a break to refresh myself for another session.

All that said, I still enjoy DAO more; more story driven, better party banter, AI and pathing, and appreciate the UI details. Only NWN1 exceeds my admiration for this game, and that is because I can still play m/p and mods after all thee years.

#73
Blazomancer

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@congokong - And? You felt like you need to become a master tactician first to even have some semblance of hope of having fun with the game? Nevermind. At least you found DA2 fun, may be you'll find Inquisition fun as well.

#74
dragonflight288

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I criticize the combat from my experience and hence people throw tactics at me to avoid some of my issues, but they're missing the point. I shouldn't need to become an expert at DA:O to potentially, but not likely, have fun with the gameplay. From my subjective experience gameplay in DA:O sucked. From combat to leveling mechanics it was poorly done. I feel DA2 improved on it.

 

Such is your opinion, I won't question it. 

 

Me personally, I felt it wasn't so much about tactics but more about knowing how to level up your character. For example, if you're a warrior with a two handed weapon, and you know that's how you want to specialize your combat at the beginning of the game, you would level up your stats differently than if you wanted to be a sword/shield combo, dual wield, or specialize in bows. It's also about knowing what role your character will play in your party, and which companions will complement you best. 

 

DA2 had less of that, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. 


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#75
DarthGizka

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Congokong does have a point, though. With my first character I used auto-levelling and let the AI take care of the companions, on the assumption that I knew nothing about the game (which was certainly true) and that the devs would have known what they were doing (which is where I was horribly wrong). The difficulty slider didn't seem to have any appreciable effect in situations where my party was overwhelmed and outgunned (Brecilian right after Lothering).

 

There was a little booklet like in KotOR and NWN, but the information there was so minimal and superficial that it was by and large useless for decisions regarding combat, tactics, character development and so on, and everybody knows what a sick joke the in-game descriptions are. Needless to say, that character died at level 10 after he picked an unwinnable fight with a revenant...

 

That's why I started the Jedi Warden Academy, as a place where people could find inspiration and information about the ways of Wardening.


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