16 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazarillo]

Just curious if anyone's ever tried something like this:  I've been considering trying a new run with a Warrior and putting an emphasis on using the weapon changing feature.  I'm thinking something like a few Talents from Sword-and-Shield, and a few from Archery,to make a character that can adapt to different situations.  Anyone have any experience with an attempt like this?  Can a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none build work, or does leaving the various talent trees incomplete leave one feeling ineffective?

[MrDbow]

One of the last runs I did in Origins was a dual-wielding warrior.  I really enjoyed it.  Felt like I was doing heavier damage than dual-wielding rogue.  Also depends on your party makeup as far as sustained spells go to give you boosts.

 

Especially in large group attacks you could off-tank while still getting decent dps through the encounter.

[DarthGizka]

My sword&board toon Alayna picked up the whole Whirlwind line and DW Training after maxing out sword & shield, and I had a real blast. The Whirlwind line offers two AoE attacks and the mighty Momentum, perfect for tearing down waves of grunts or undead.

 

There are only two drawbacks. The first is that you basically need a third weapon set for a longbow (for pulling and ranged fun). This means a bit of farting around with the inventory on occasion. The second is that you cannot use the same longsword in both sets if you switch normally instead of via the inventory. It's no problem during the endgame since the grunts are one-hitters but during the Attack at Nightfall you'll want your Topsider's Honor with Cold Irons in the active set (which basically means the DW set since Redcliffe is a DPS game). In most other cases it works well enough if you have your general damage sword (Starfang with elementals) in the DW set and something like Maric's or Duncan's with Silverites in the sword & shield set.

 

Shield Wall has an awfully long cooldown, so you'd normally use Shield Defence and leave Shield Wall for when the ogres join the dance.

 

P.S.: It seems that the specialisations don't show up on the character page. Alayna is a Reaver(2)/Champion(4). These specialisations are vital for the integrity of the build, mostly because of the two CC abilities (Frightening Appearance and upgraded War Cry).

[Lazarillo]

Thanks for the tips so far.  I might have been a little confusing with my terminology...I'm not planning on actually using the Dual Weapons tree (at least, not yet); I meant "dual spec" in the sense of taking Talents from two different weapon trees (in this case, Archery, and Sword/Shield).  The idea is to toggle weapons fairly regularly to deal with different types of threats and stance-dance as appropriate, probably between Shield Defense, Aim, and Defensive Fire, since they have reasonably short cooldowns. 

 

One thing I'm wondering a bit is how much I actually benefit from switching to Sword/Shield and activating Shield Defense for better defense and control in melee-oriented brawls.  I mean, granted, it helps me look pretty darn cool (and looking cool is important, dammit!), but I'm wondering if it's really all that much more beneficial compared to just keeping the bow out with Defensive Fire active.

[DarthGizka]

Defensive Fire gives you the same defence as fully upgraded Shield Defence with an über shield like Vartag's or Howe's, and there is little synergy. Adding DW feats to the Sword + Shield line works because both are melee and the rest (equipment, specialisations) is equally useful using either set. In any case, both archery and sword&boardery require heavy commitment in terms of ability points, and so you'd have to skimp on the one or the other.

[Lazarillo]

Bummer.  About as expected, but still, bummer.  The concept seemed neat, but it sounds like it doesn't add anything to just using the bow in melee range on occasion.  Appreciate the comments, though.

[theskymoves]

My sword-and-board Warrior!babe Cousland also used a bow, since she spent a fair amount of time either soloing or with team of just DW!Alistair and Dawg. She  had no points in archery, but she did have enough dexterity to equip a really good longbow. Moira soloed not!Andraste with a combination of ranged and melee attacks, with no points in archery, at all. She was Level 17, IIRC. Templar spec, all talent points in W+S/Warrior/Templar. Nightmare difficulty. And... she would have been using Far Song. (Disclaimer: I use the mod that gives Far Song to Owen. TSM is a cheating cheater where that bow is concerned.  )

 

tl; dr: a tanky warrior can be effective using a bow as as a secondary/alternate attack, even without spending any talent points in archery

[Blazomancer]

Yup such builds can work. The benefits of using a shield at close quarters are flanking and knockdown immunity, in addition to the bonus that comes with the shield. Defensive fire increases aim time, which can be a bit of bother from a damage dealing PoV. In addition, heavier armor, the sort that warriors typically use, incurs a penalty to attack speed, which can essentially slow down the archer's firing rate drastically, especially if defensive fire is turned on. Master Archer eliminates this penalty for Heavy armor (not massive), which is worth investing in if you are going to use only Heavy armor.

The activated talents of both the weapon styles are in no way necessary when it comes to effectiveness in battle, especially when playing with a full team. If I were building a similar character, I'll most probably prioritize the bottom two lines of the weapon and shield talents, and the topmost for archery.

[DarthGizka]

The first three feats of the top line can be fairly important for a sword & board toon:

 

Shield Bash interrupts mages and it frees companions from a Grab or Chomp. It also gives you the time you need to complete a Shield Pummel, which would otherwise not be safe to use against emissaries (because they could counter with something like Mind Blast, Cone of Cold or Crushing Prison and still win). Superior War Cry has the same benefits and more but it is not available til late in the game.

 

Shield Pummel is the sword & boarder's only stun until they get Frightening Appearance.

 

Overpower does critical damage and this is vital for reliable shattering. The knockdown can contribute to keeping emissaries stunlocked until they're dead, and it can also interrupt spellcasting.

[Mike3207]

The first three feats of the top line can be fairly important for a sword & board toon:
 
Shield Bash interrupts mages and it frees companions from a Grab or Chomp. It also gives you the time you need to complete a Shield Pummel, which would otherwise not be safe to use against emissaries (because they could counter with something like Mind Blast, Cone of Cold or Crushing Prison and still win). Superior War Cry has the same benefits and more but it is not available til late in the game.
 
Shield Pummel is the sword & boarder's only stun until they get Frightening Appearance.
 
Overpower does critical damage and this is vital for reliable shattering. The knockdown can contribute to keeping emissaries stunlocked until they're dead, and it can also interrupt spellcasting.

I'm guessing you didn't mention Assault because you think it's overpowered? There aren't a lot of enemies that really stand up to a Dragonbone Sword and Assault for very long.

[DarthGizka]

Well, Assault 'only' gives you nice peak damage, perfect for finishing off that pesky emissary whom you kept from casting with War Cry, Shield Bash, Shield Pummel, Frightening Appearance and Overpower.   The same also works for totally trouncing Loghain during the duel, by the way.

 

The other three feats can be more important because they enable certain tactics and techniques, including the quick dispatch of white enemies via shattering. Meaning I'd put them in the 'needed' category rather than 'wanted'.

 

Speaking of shattering and multi-mode warrioring: I gave Mighty Blow to my first character (a noble shield dwarf) with the idea to have another shatter. Didn't pan out. Too clunky.

[Blazomancer]

When playing with a full team, the shield talents are not exactly necessities. The same things can be done by other members of the team, and if someone wants to invest those points in other weapon styles to create a hybrid, there's hardly any reason not to do so. It's not like the character will end up being ineffective in combat. Of course, if other weapon styles are not desired, then there's no reason not to get the shield talents either. But the OP here does, so there's that.

Mages can be dealt easily with rogues and mages; there's hardly any need for a tank to waste time waiting for the talent animations to play out when the same time can be used to score two-three autoattacks. Even if the warrior get crushing prison'ed, it only takes something like Shockwave, Dispel Magic to get rid of it. And honestly if anybody other than the shield bearer is getting grabbed or overwhelmed, then what's the point of bringing a defensive SnS warrior in the first place. Not to mention that most creatures use Overwhelm only when the target's HP gets below 50%. Shattering is a nice combo, but again hardly necessary. If required, Leliana can have two shattering options - Critical Shot and Combat Stealth fairly early. Assault's damage is nerfed with every hit; a warrior under the effects of Haste, and having Blood Thirst and Precise Striking sustained can potentially deal similar or even more damage with autoattacks in the same time. Autoattacks benefit from damage runes, poisons, coatings, elemental enchantments, while activated talents don't.

[DarthGizka]

Note that I said 'can be important', not 'must necessarily be important for everyone'.

When playing with a full team, the Warden can specialise in crotcheting and still get away with it. The whole point of discussions like this is to find out about the (de-)merits of various choices, so that people can gauge what they will get if they embark on a certain route.

Even if you delegate the removal of mages to someone else, it can be wise not to put all your eggs in one basket. That someone might be unavailable (too far away, busy, out of mana, incapacitated, waltzed off), their abilities might be cooling down, a spell might fizzle or get resisted, an enemy might only get injured instead of killed, and so on. My warrior simply didn't like having to wait for the team to catch up and remove the enemy mage for her.

Mages aren't the only enemies that an S&S warrior might want to disable for as long as possible; hard-hitting melees come to mind, especially elite/bossy ones. Starting with Loghain who will make you bleed a lot if haven't got a bit of CC in addition to the passive/sustained shield abilities. The moves I listed in connection with emissaries are good counters for his Perfect Striking; they can keep him stunned or on his ass for most of the fight.

Shattering can be very attractive early to midgame. Morrigan can learn Cone of Cold in Lothering or very shortly after, and some companions already have shattering abilities when you meet them. For teams without a nuker mage, shattering may be the only means of dispatching enemies quickly for quite a while. In any case it can be a welcome by-product of using Cone of Cold for crowd control.

Templars may like Assault because all four strikes are righteous and drain mana.

As regards the rest: I didn't know that you can bring only one S&S warrior to a fight, that they are required to be the designated primary tank, and that the enemy will respect that choice when picking someone to grab or overwhelm. Sorry.

[Blazomancer]

They indeed overwhelm the most hated target, typically the tank if it's doing it's job, SnS or no.

Even if we leave out mana clash, a single mage alone has a large number of options to disable mages. Add to that another mage and a rogue, I think that's enough number of baskets. Only Shield Bash is an instant knockdown, and even for that the warrior needs to get up close and personal to the mage, meaning ample time for the mage to cast crushing prison, CoC, Misdirection Hex and what have you. Overpower and Pummel adds an extra second in addition to that. Regardless of who is the tank, charging an enemy mage is always risky, unless the ranged members are doing something, or say a rogue had snuck up earlier. By the time Warcry and Holy Smite are unlocked, the party would have grown enough teeth to make mages harmless. The warrior may as well become fully spell resistant if one so desires by then. The point being that the offensive shield talents are almost always going to need to be complemented by other abilities from teammates in the early stages, so not picking them up isn't really a major setback. But yeah it adds a few more options.

Loghain can be dealt with fairly easily even without the offensive shield talents. First of all Loghain won't activate perfect striking till his stamina has gone down below 75%, and the time for that would vary depending upon the triggering of his other abilities. A offensive warrior can knock him out by then, and even if he's not knocked out by then, the 15 seconds of his perfect striking can be easily mitigated using Warcry, and Holy Smite. The warden can even keep running around for the duration for what it's worth. And it's not like a warden can't take a few hits, not that every attack would hit given the dodge chance that can go upto 55%. Make no mistake, I'll pick up at least upto Shield Pummel in every playthrough, but my point is that there isn't exactly any game breaking advantage for doing that instead of choosing to spend those points somewhere else.

I'm not exactly sure how much helpful Righteous Shrike is to be honest; mana drain from a mage really? I can see it being of some use for a faster build say a Dual Striking Templar; may be even not then.

[DarthGizka]

The idea is more like 'if you happen to have sword & shield templar then Assault offers an additional benefit' rather than 'Assault works with Righteous Strike, so let's make a sword & shield templar'.

Same for the other stuff. It's more about what a certain ability/spell can add to your arsenal in terms of the tactical necessities covered, if you happen to have the preconditions anyway (i.e. specialisation taken, special weapons training already begun and so on). Good coverage makes your freer in your choice of companions and it can enable additional tactics during battle, which is especially important early on.

For example, if you do the Circle first then you can have two mage companions but neither will be able to neutralise enemy mages*. Alistair won't have learnt his smiting trick yet, and Leliana's abilities won't be very far along either. My special friend - the elite Arcane Horror on the third floor of the Circle Tower - likes to drive that lesson home with a vengeance.

Yes, jumping an enemy mage with a lone warrior is a bit risky, and Shield Pummel takes so long that it is not safe without a prior knockdown of some kind (like Shield Bash or upgraded War Cry). However, physical fighters don't have to deal with gratuitous spell resistance and so the level of risk is fairly reasonable. As long as you avoid blunders like getting seen by the emissary before they are within knockdown distance (since their nastiest spells do not require line of sight), or getting your chain of attacks interrupted because you forgot to activate Shield Wall and some hurlock knocks you on your ass.

Enemy mages can only plink away with their staves as long as you stay out of spellcasting range. That enables a strategy whereby a warrior/rogue** takes position behind some tree or corner and somebody else lures the mage into the ambush with ranged attacks from afar. Once the emissary is engaged, all the others can jump on him as well and each contribute their own stun/disabler.

Sometimes you can pull a mage without getting seen prematurely, by aggroing one of their bodyguards.

Sometimes it is possible to repeat Daveth's trick from Emissary Bridge in the Wilds, i.e. surprise Pinning Shot followed by Dirty Fighting, at which point the rest of the team can take over and keep the mage disabled while he gets hacked into tiny bits.

Things of that kind are pretty much the only option until you've had the chance to train your companions for a few levels, like if you return to Ostagar right after Lothering. At that point in time the team of a non-mage Warden may not even have Force Field as an antidote for Crushing Prison, let alone abilities that can dispel a Curse of Mortality, or an own arsenal of CC spells and nukes.

Another way of looking at the S&S mix-in question is bang for buck.

At the price of three points, Shield Bash, Shield Pummel and Overpower contribute something qualitative to your tactics arsenal: knockdown, stun and shatter/knockdown. No level requirement, except indirectly by way of requiring Combat Training 1, 2, and 3 respectively.

The defensive lines contribute partial knockdown immunity and minor quantitative boosts (+10 defence and +5 armour, or +15 defence without the immunity), at the cost of eight points and with a level requirement of 12. Tanks may also see a small benefit from the missile deflection bonus of +5 for SD and +10 for SW, since they tend to get a lot of remote attention. Flanking immunity is sort of nice if it's free but on the whole it is negligible.

The expenditure for the defensive lines seems only worth it for a full S&S warrior or for a classic tank, i.e. when tank-centric approaches are used in daily adventuring. If you need a tank only every once in a blue moon then you could simply take whoever is handy and ward them with a bit of magic, i.e. Shale or Leliana. In the case of Branka the onus tends to fall on Oghren, naturally. Another option would be to sacrifice a summoned pet, but I can't make myself do that kind of thing.

 

*) except for Morrigan's Cone of Cold, but that doesn't last very long
**) or Morrigan with her Cone of Cold
 

[Blazomancer]

Why, isn't Morrigan's Horror and Wynne's Stonefist more than enough for the circle mages. Morrigan hits level 8 very soon after entering the circle, earlier than the arcane horror encounter, so that point goes into Force Field. I usually don't take CoC or any damaging AoEs unless I'm playing a mage myself. Even if we leave force field alone, the arcane horror is dealt with pretty easily; the skeletons are slain without luring it in, then the meat shield is sent as a bait, Wynne throws stone fist, Morrigan casts hex+lightning bolt+winter's grasp+drain life, Leliana rapid fires supported by Heroic Offense, it's done. I'm sure the tank will survive more often than not, now that the party has regen and heal.

Yes, one can pick up Overpower very early, but will those three talents provide better survivability than shield Wall when facing groups of enemies, let's say the templars and the desire demon as an example?

Now it may be the case that Alistair is tanking, and the warden is yet another Weapon and Shield Warrior. Then I can understand picking up the offensive talents very early. But if it is a hybrid sort of build we are talking about, that switches to SnS only to adapt to situations that cannot be dealt otherwise, then I'd always choose Shield Wall over the offensive abilities, and direct those points into Archery instead. May be later into the game, I'll get them, but wouldn't prioritize them. That'd be my preference, although I'll admit I see no reason why a build with only the first tree from Weapon and Shield can't work either.

I know the OP didn't specifically mention anything about the preferred party setup, or the role of the warden in the team, but c'mon 'Shield Defense' and 'Defensive Fire' and you can guess. Why would anybody prefer defensive fire of all things unless defense is the main concern?

[Mike3207]

On the weapon changing, it depends on if you just want to switch weapons or you also want to switch armor and accessories as well.I know there are some drawbacks with using Massive Armor with Archery, so you might want to familiarize yourself with the Inventory Screen.I haven't had any problems with switching different parts of gear in inventory, but there is some lag involved in getting out of the screen and switching to like the Sustained abilities.