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Why the original ending was a failure - And that's okay.


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#1
DemiserofD

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Alright, so I've been cruising through dozens of forums, reading up on all the criticism of ME3 and it's endings, the various plot holes, etc etc etc. A few of the more prevalent ones I've noticed are:

 

1. Why didn't the Reapers just go ahead and take the Citadel immediately, decapitating galactic civilization like they did in the previous cycles? Sure, they couldn't do it the easy way like before, but they managed it just fine later on, why not earlier?

 

2. Why did humans suddenly find the Crucible plans at just the right moment? You would have thought that if there were plans for a massively powerful weapon, plans that could be recognized as plans for a massively powerful weapon just by a quick glance from someone desperately looking through the archives, they would have found it in the decades since they first found the Mars Archives. Furthermore, why didn't Vigil mention it, or why didn't Javik know about it? You'd think that if the Protheans had discovered a way to kill the Reapers in one shot, they would have kept track of it in case they ever had the option of using it.

 

3. Why Earth? Why move the Citadel directly over earth, when they were doing just fine without it? Why provide an easy access port at all?

 

4. Mass Accelerators are easy to aim in space, even moreso if there's a giant, well-defended object that cant aim very well. Why didn't the reapers just blow up the Crucible the instant it dropped out of FTL?

 

 

 

 

 

I think that there is one clear answer that solves this problem; it wasn't the Protheans that designed the Crucible, or any other species that fought the Reapers. It was the Reapers themselves. They deliberately left behind archives like the one on Mars, to further the tech direction they wanted species to go towards. Then they inserted the plans for the Crucible with a protocol that reveals its presence at the same time as the impending reaper invasion.

 

Most species would see this as a godsend. A weapon, designed by the previous cycle that was barely defeated, that could destroy their enemy in a single move? Talk about tremendous tactical advantage! So of course every species would start to pour their resources into it, trying to build it before the war comes to a bloody end. In their haste to build it, nobody notices that, with all their resources turned towards this megaproject, their fleets are getting less resources, and their scientists are focusing less and less on the invasion and more and more on the complicated, yet "strangely simple" designs of the Crucible.

 

Now maybe in this time the Reapers will annihilate the species and the problem will be solved. But maybe not; maybe you have a species that just refuses to give up and die, a species that fights for each and every inch of territory lost, and makes the Reapers pay a bloody cost for it. That is the situation where...they 'Discover' the Crucible project. The immediately move the Crucible to a heavily defended world, but a world that they took from one of the other species some time ago, one that knows it better than anyone else. Then they set up a cursory defense, and watch as the Crucible plugs itself into the Citadel.

 

And behold; the species is presented with three options.

 

1.Destroy all synthetic-originated technology; the Mass Relay Network, sure, but also implants, technologies, AI's--Everything the species would need to survive in a world cut off from the rest of the galaxy. Sure, the reapers physical bodies are destroyed, but they're machines; they leave copies of their code on other platforms in Dark Space, and come back and build new ones over the course of a few hundred years. In the meantime, Galactic Civilization is trying to reform with every factory, ship, and omnitool useless scrap, and most of their scientists and warriors dead of rejection shock as their implants suddenly become useless hunks of metal.

 

2. Take control of the Reapers. Because they totally will let you control them, and your one mind can totally sublimate the uncounted trillions of reaper minds contained within them, and you totally wont get indoctrinated by direct contact with the soul of pure evil. "The Reapers are Friendly Now", you say, as you bring them in to repair the damaged mass relays. Everyone trusts you, so nobody even notices that every single scientist and soldier in the galaxy is being indoctrinated until it's too late.

 

3. Synthesis. The Reapers want everything in the galaxy to be made synthetic. In one stroke, you achieve this for them. With their unimaginably great power, they overwhelm the minds of every new synthetic being, merge it into a new reaper, and leave for dark space, letting the remaining synthesis plants and animals slowly fade back into normalcy.

 

 

 

Basically, in the original ending, the Reapers WON. You took their bait, you let the cycle repeat again, and you never even noticed. That's why many didn't like the original endings; none of them seemed like 'good' endings, because they WEREN'T. 

 

And that's alright. You played the game well. You lost, but then again, you never really had a chance to win, did you? You really think the reapers would let a species get powerful enough to challenge them? You really think an army built over billions of years can be beaten by one thrown together in dozens?

 

No, no; the Reapers won, fair and square. The cycle continues. As it always will.

 

 


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#2
teh DRUMPf!!

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I call these theories "Deception"-nonsense, but to your credit, this wasn't the usual Destroy-biased headcanon.

You say this was the "original ending," though. Do you still believe this post-EC?

#3
chris2365

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That's actually a nice and thought post. Gives the original endings a new perspective, for me anyways.


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#4
MassivelyEffective0730

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Eh, it's a view that tries to make sense of the endings. Good going, but for me, the original endings just weren't as well thought out as some people think (thus me not buying into all their idea's about it having double meanings or hidden depths). It was bad writing. No depth to it, it was just a narrative and thematic that was meant to evoke a sense of higher concept science fiction.


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#5
shepskisaac

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Alright, so I've been cruising through dozens of forums, reading up on all the criticism of ME3 and it's endings, the various plot holes, etc etc etc. A few of the more prevalent ones I've noticed are:

 

1. Why didn't the Reapers just go ahead and take the Citadel immediately, decapitating galactic civilization like they did in the previous cycles? Sure, they couldn't do it the easy way like before, but they managed it just fine later on, why not earlier?

 

2. Why did humans suddenly find the Crucible plans at just the right moment? You would have thought that if there were plans for a massively powerful weapon, plans that could be recognized as plans for a massively powerful weapon just by a quick glance from someone desperately looking through the archives, they would have found it in the decades since they first found the Mars Archives. Furthermore, why didn't Vigil mention it, or why didn't Javik know about it? You'd think that if the Protheans had discovered a way to kill the Reapers in one shot, they would have kept track of it in case they ever had the option of using it.

 

3. Why Earth? Why move the Citadel directly over earth, when they were doing just fine without it? Why provide an easy access port at all?

 

4. Mass Accelerators are easy to aim in space, even moreso if there's a giant, well-defended object that cant aim very well. Why didn't the reapers just blow up the Crucible the instant it dropped out of FTL?

 

No offense but you missed a lot that was directly explained in the game.

 

1. Like you said, it wasn't easy as before. Why? 'Cause the station can close itself into an impenetrable shell, as explained in ME1. That's why Sovereign needed the 'inside man' Saren to keep the station opened. In ME3, Reapers have Cerberus do it (with indoctrination), first attempt being the Coup and the second with TIM implanting himself with Reaper-tech implants that allow him to control organics. TIM goes to Citadel and Reapers retake while Shep is at Cronos Station.

 

3. Earth because they're making Human Reaper on the Citadel. With Collectors and Collector Base gone, they have the Keepers make the new Human Reaper inside the Citadel Tower, Shepard and Anderson discuss it when they arrive through the beam in the ending. Anderson already mentioned it half-way through the game that the Reapers arrived in London in huge numbers are were preparing something big. They always planned to retake the Citadel, they gathered human bodies in London and started transporting them to the Keepers to make new Human Reaper through the London beam once the finally retook the Citadel and moved it to Earth.

 

4. The fleets are occupying the Reapers. If your EMS is low and your fleet weak, there's a cutscene with Reapers heavily damaging the Crucible and later on the Intelligence says how much harm Crucible blast will do because it's been damaged.

 

As for the entire idea that Reapers made the Crucible. It's possible, but if anything I would bet on Leviathan design/involvement. During the scene where you ask Levi about the Cruciblem the camera pans on Leviathan's eyes very closely and he makes a shifty expression while saying that he doesn't really know anything about it other than it was never completed. It looks like an obvious hint from the developers to me and makes sense. Leviathans were the only being who knew about the Intelligence and how to incorporate it into Crucible's design. Catalyst himself admits the Crucible 'changed him' = change in programming. Leviathans could've directly influence Crucible's design



#6
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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One can make a game/story/book/movie/etc have a deeper, possibly disturbing, meaning to it, if it's done well, and alluded to throughout, even unintentionally. But throwing it in at the end, intentional or not, is just bad. 

Like the theory that Link is dead and going through the five stages of grief in Majora's Mask. It may have been intentional or unintentional, but the fact remains that there is evidence throughout the narrative that it is true, and that it doesn't contradict anything. 

But in Mass Effect 3, the player/protagonist is told throughout the game that the Crucible will defeat, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise, from a narrative perspective. Maybe from an in-universe perspective, maybe, (I don't think so, but that's just my opinion.) but nothing in the narrative is there to suggest as such. Yes, a twist can work, but as exemplified by M. Night Shyamalan, it often doesn't, and can't work if it isn't supported by anything previous in the story. 

Yes, there can be unintentional meaning in a story beyond what the writer intended, but that doesn't make it good or make the story any better. 

Of course, I must ask why Synthesis would stop the Reapers.

I mean, why wouldn't Reaper A say "Hey, mister Star Brat isn't telling us what do anymore, Reaper B. What should we do now?"

Reaper B: "Hmmm, why don't we, instead of harvesting those pitiful organics, enslave them to do our bidding? Make us mojitos and stuff?"

Reaper A: "Sounds like a plan. I mean, why not?"
 



#7
KaiserShep

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Hmm, an army of mojito-making thralls does sound compelling.

 

As for Synthesis stopping the reapers, I assume this happens because the Catalyst simply wills it after getting what it wants. A more important question in my mind is how is this supposed to stop robots from destroying the people that build them. I guess the green wave is the Mass Effect equivalent of the Care Bear stare, and it just injects everyone with love.



#8
DemiserofD

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I call these theories "Deception"-nonsense, but to your credit, this wasn't the usual Destroy-biased headcanon.

You say this was the "original ending," though. Do you still believe this post-EC?

 

Well, the freeze frames of everyone else living happily ever after would overtly contradict my theory completely. Then again, the EC was basically just pandering to an enraged playerbase, so you can't exactly take anything in it 100% seriously.

If I were to try to include it, I'd say that Shepard dreams about a bright future where everyone lived happily ever after just before s/he dies. The Refusal ending, of course, would be 100% accurate, and would become the obvious ideal ending...except, of course, for the fact that it once again contains info on the crucible. It would be, at best, an even shakier 'maybe' than before.



#9
Excella Gionne

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Yeah, but EC was made by BioWare. Whatever they make canon that happens is what will happen. Doesn't matter if it's complete crap, because it is what happened unless said to be non-canon by the creators themselves. All we can do is judge it and tweak it, but no matter what, whatever they make canon is canon'd. 


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#10
Guest_Magick_*

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Its 2014. Its been two years. Get over it.



#11
I Tsunayoshi I

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Its 2014. Its been two years. Get over it.

 

Is there a reason you get so mad because people voice an opinion counter to yours?



#12
KaiserShep

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Its 2014. Its been two years. Get over it.

 

1260228-niftucal.png

Skfffff...You get over it!


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#13
MassivelyEffective0730

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Its 2014. Its been two years. Get over it.

 

Coming from the guy who made no less than 30 new topics in the span of about 2 weeks about the same sort of stuff.


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#14
Mcfly616

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Hmm interesting interpretation, I guess. Ofcourse, I think Bioware made the endings so that there would be many interpretations. Yours sounds similar to the 'Civilization Benchmark' interpretation (i.e. The Catalyst/Reapers introduced the Crucible). Check it out (and be sure to read part 2)


http://www.gamefront...nalysis-part-1/

#15
78stonewobble

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While I use other arguments, I agree that there is one ending that wins you the game and 2 that are "deceptions". Still haven't seen a refutation of them that doesn't require the largest handwave in the history of handwave's and/or that the reapers/catalyst are dumber than a severely retarded human. 



#16
RZIBARA

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Coming from the guy who made no less than 30 new topics in the span of about 2 weeks about the same sort of stuff.

 

Damn+_64e55c15e2f0c16a62fc8997b2632321.j

 

you tell him



#17
Guest_Magick_*

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@Massive No it wasn't the same sort of stuff. So get your facts straight.

@Tsunayoshi You do realize you dig your own holes

@Kaiser Juvenile

 

I love how all ban together against me however my comment wasn't against the OP but everyone still debating on the ending. We all know it wasn't great and as stated by the OP that's okay. Its just a game. Considering how invested most of you are an how dedicated you all are only to attack those who are less knowledgeable about the game or overlooked something gives the fan-base and the community bad rep in my opinion.



#18
dreamgazer

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Get over it? Bah, amateurs. I still cry myself to sleep over the Sophie's Choice on Virmire!

#19
Guest_Jesus Christ_*

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@Massive No it wasn't the same sort of stuff. So get your facts straight.

 

 

Aaaaaannnnd here we go.....


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#20
MassivelyEffective0730

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Aaaaaannnnd here we go.....

 

I forgot to mention how he comes on here and complains about his personal life and problem with women. Now my facts are straight!



#21
Farangbaa

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Yeah, but EC was made by BioWare. Whatever they make canon that happens is what will happen. Doesn't matter if it's complete crap, because it is what happened unless said to be non-canon by the creators themselves. All we can do is judge it and tweak it, but no matter what, whatever they make canon is canon'd. 

 

Thread has been won.



#22
Jukaga

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At some level, all that are here get enjoyment out of ME3 or we wouldn't be posting still two years later .


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#23
AlexMBrennan

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I think that there is one clear answer that solves this problem; it wasn't the Protheans that designed the Crucible, or any other species that fought the Reapers. It was the Reapers themselves. They deliberately left behind archives like the one on Mars

That would do jack all to solve the problems you mentioned - e.g. the source of the information cannot possibly change how it is discovered, and even with the Crucible being a trap the Reaper could have gained an immense strategic advantage by taking control of the relay network immediately. 

 

3. Why Earth? Why move the Citadel directly over earth, when they were doing just fine without it? Why provide an easy access port at all?

That's explained in the game - Reaper forces were concentrated in Sol

 

1.Destroy all synthetic-originated technology; the Mass Relay Network, sure, but also implants, technologies, AI's--Everything the species would need to survive in a world cut off from the rest of the galaxy. Sure, the reapers physical bodies are destroyed, but they're machines; they leave copies of their code on other platforms in Dark Space

It's kinda hard to notice, but there is a galaxy-spanning explosion wave in the endings so those backup platforms are toast too. Even if it wasn't the case, by the Reapers are ready for another invasion we can have more Crucibles ready to deal with them. Also, what is the point in using incredibly convulted schemes which could fail in numerous ways when you could just take over the Citadel and roflstomp us without resistance? 

 

3. Synthesis. The Reapers want everything in the galaxy to be made synthetic. In one stroke, you achieve this for them. With their unimaginably great power, they overwhelm the minds of every new synthetic being, merge it into a new reaper, and leave for dark space, letting the remaining synthesis plants and animals slowly fade back into normalcy.

Where the hell are you getting that from?

 

Basically, in the original ending, the Reapers WON

Epilogue says you are wrong - you fail. 



#24
78stonewobble

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I forgot to mention how he comes on here and complains about his personal life and problem with women. Now my facts are straight!

 

Yeah, it's not like attitude and signatures can be one long irritating display of personal problems either... 



#25
MassivelyEffective0730

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Yeah, it's not like attitude and signatures can be one long irritating display of personal problems either... 

 

Are you upset that I... disagreed with you in that one thread? The post of yours seems self-aware to the point of satire. And if it's not, it's definitely overly antagonizing towards me. Please, tell me how I have personal problems that you've analyzed from the seat of your computer chair!