140 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

*shrugs*

 

I'm not going to try and convince anyone who's dead set on killing Loghain not to do it. People have legitimate gripes against him.

 

I'm just going to take solace in the knowledge that I have a joy in my life that they lack.

[aTigerslunch]

I only have one play through allowing him to live. All the rest has him dead by mostly my warden couple times by Alistair. So no, he wont be much use to me.

[Xetykins]

*shrugs*
 
I'm not going to try and convince anyone who's dead set on killing Loghain not to do it. People have legitimate gripes against him.
 
I'm just going to take solace in the knowledge that I have a joy in my life that they lack.

My english is not that good as its not my first language but....I sense a backhanded insult somewhere in your last sentence :-)

[Former_Fiend]

My english is not that good as its not my first language but....I sense a backhanded insult somewhere in your last sentence :-)

 

I don't do backhanded insults; if I want to insult someone, I do it to their face.

 

Rather, it's a simple declaration that I'm tired of being drawn into debates over Loghain. If people want to kill him, fine, that's their business so long as they only expect it to apply to their playthroughs. 

 

In the mean time, I'll sit back and enjoy hanging out with Loghain.

[Xetykins]

I don't do backhanded insults; if I want to insult someone, I do it to their face.
 
Rather, it's a simple declaration that I'm tired of being drawn into debates over Loghain. If people want to kill him, fine, that's their business so long as they only expect it to apply to their playthroughs. 
 
In the mean time, I'll sit back and enjoy hanging out with Loghain.

Seems like you're implying that people who kills loghain are miserable irl. But thats ook, I respect your own opinion as I dont know you and you dont know me.

And never have I given any impression on my post on this thread that im shoving my game down your throat.
So lets leave it at that ok? I havent had my coffee yet! :-)

[Former_Fiend]

I'm not saying they're miserable. 

 

I'm saying I have one, small bit of enjoyment in life that they don't. I'm sure they have pieces of enjoyment in their lives that I don't. 

[berelinde]

*shrugs*

 

I'm not going to try and convince anyone who's dead set on killing Loghain not to do it. People have legitimate gripes against him.

 

I'm just going to take solace in the knowledge that I have a joy in my life that they lack.

Er... no.

 

There are as many reasons to kill Loghain as there are to keep him alive. Personal satisfaction with one's life isn't in the top 1000 of either category.

 

I've got Wardens who spared Loghain and Wardens who executed him, but that decision was based on role-playing reasons, not because I'm dragging my personal life into the game. On the one hand, only Wardens can stop the Blight, and it stands to reason that having more of them on hand might be a good idea. On the other, Loghain has consistently tried to murder the Warden as part of his personal agenda (rational or not), and I can understand how some Wardens might be less inclined to trust him.

 

There are also personal reasons to go one way or the other, too, and not necessarily related to life satisfaction. Post-Landsmeet dialogue with Loghain is interesting, and the banters are poignant. On the other hand, some Wardens have a relationship with Alistair (friendship or otherwise) that they want to preserve, and throwing him over for the sake of someone who has actively tried to kill them is kind of underhanded.

[The Night Haunter]

If the bans undermine their elected King, they're traitors. There are always nobles scheming in the shadows because they lost the latest power struggle. It's business as usual in that case. But if the lot that threw in with him wants to do more, then, say, Eamon is justified in bringing them down. 

You're confusing Ferelden for an absolute monarchy, when in fact it is much closer to the Holy Roman Empire. in the HRE the Emperor's were elected by the most powerful nobles of the empire and they had little authority outside their direct holdings (and in fact the Diet - read Landsmeet - had little authority as well, until the Austrians started marrying and annexing everyone). Ferelden's King isn't an absolute ruler, he has the authority he can take and hold, if the Landsmeet think he is a tyrant and denounce him, then he is technically no longer King. Of course he could contest it and chop off some heads, but that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It didn't for Meghran. 

[Former_Fiend]

Er... no.

 

There are as many reasons to kill Loghain as there are to keep him alive. Personal satisfaction with one's life isn't in the top 1000 of either category.

 

I've got Wardens who spared Loghain and Wardens who executed him, but that decision was based on role-playing reasons, not because I'm dragging my personal life into the game. On the one hand, only Wardens can stop the Blight, and it stands to reason that having more of them on hand might be a good idea. On the other, Loghain has consistently tried to murder the Warden as part of his personal agenda (rational or not), and I can understand how some Wardens might be less inclined to trust him.

 

There are also personal reasons to go one way or the other, too, and not necessarily related to life satisfaction. Post-Landsmeet dialogue with Loghain is interesting, and the banters are poignant. On the other hand, some Wardens have a relationship with Alistair (friendship or otherwise) that they want to preserve, and throwing him over for the sake of someone who has actively tried to kill them is kind of underhanded.

 

You misunderstand me.

 

I'm not saying my personal enjoyment of the character is a reason to spare him over killing him or anything.

 

I'm saying it's a reason not to argue about it.

 

I don't care why anyone spares Loghain or why they kill him. That has no impact on me, it doesn't harm my enjoyment of the character, nor does it enhance it. It's their business.

[DragonRacer]

I have playthroughs with Loghain alive and with Loghain dead.

 

I do prefer sparing him, though, and I'm not about to argue those reasons for the eight hundredth time (I've been around the forum a while and have seen/been in pleeeeeeeeenty of Loghain debates that I'm just sort of "over it").

 

I think it would be really cool if he got some small cameo if your playthrough spared him, since he DID get sent off to Orlais and we'll be there now, finally. Timeline feels like a bit of a stretch to me for so long after a Joining done at an older age than it "normally" seems to be done, but if anyone has the stubborn willpower to fight off the Calling for as long as possible, it's Loghain.

 

I didn't get too excited to hear about Simon Templeman being in the VO booth again, though, because he did other voices besides Loghain, namely random NPCs. It could just be that again and, if so, I'm fine remaining happy with Loghain's little cameo in Awakening.

[DragonRacer]

Exactly. Deal with his little rebellion by crushing his rebels. Simply killing him and Howe would have already dealt a pretty big blow to them.

 

That aside I just can't bring myself to support sparing a man who left his King and the order that my character is apart of to die, made multiple attempts on the life of the King's heir, hired a known blood mage to poison an Arl, allowed the slaughter of Couslands and sold his own citizens into slavery. It just seems like a bad political move all around. Even if never does anything like this again the fact remains that he wounded too many different groups of people.

 

I have one point of confusion here. When did Loghain make "multiple attempts" on the life of Cailan? I certainly understand the argument that he left Cailan to die on the field of battle, and some may or may not argue what his intentions were or were not with all that. But I don't recall anything in any of the books or in-game that stated or showed Loghain tried to kill Cailan multiple times. 

 

Got a source? Been a while since my last playthrough, so maybe I'm just totally forgetting something...

[TurretSyndrome]

In dilemmas like this, it's good to refer to your character knowledge about the situation than your own. Right now, your character is at the Landsmeet, he/she already defeated Loghain, who is now awaiting your decision. Riordan says that "there are compelling reasons to let him live" and that "3 Wardens in all of Ferelden is not enough". Remember, character knowledge, we still don't know what "compelling reasons" he's talking about.

 

Next, Alistair. He reminds you all the things Loghain did until the Landsmeet. If you've read the books with Loghain in them, you have to forget about those too, because that'll be player knowledge. So what your character does know about Loghain is in the codex, along with all the things he did in Origins so far. That is, deserting the King, poisoning the arl, sending assassins on you, sending mercenaries on you, sending his own soldiers on you, selling the city elves as slaves for support from Tevinter, branding the Grey Wardens as traitors. Does that cover everything? 

 

So I think that should give you enough reason to punish him. To me, at this point, all the above is more than enough justification to cut off his head. But then again, the punishment can be inducting him into the Grey Wardens because that is what they are. They can be criminals, nobles, kings, commoners, basically anyone with enough skill. Does Loghain have skill? He most definitely does, and that's all that matters to being a Grey Warden. So if you're pragmatic, and have always taken the threat of the Blight seriously, unlike Alistair, who despite knowing what the Grey Wardens are(that they are not some noble order but an order of skilled men and women to fight the Darkspawn) starts whining at the Landsmeet, you have more than enough reason to recruit him.

 

There, I believe I have provided you with enough justification for both choices, so pick according to your character.

 

TL;DR - Kill him if you're Warden took what he did personally, recruit him if your Warden doesn't hold grudges or if he/she wants to put him to better use. Forget about what happens in-game(like Alistair leaving and Loghain taking his place), because, again, player knowledge, your character would not know that until it happens.

[OynxDragon666]

I liked it when his character was humbled by joining the Grey Wardens, learning why the Wardens are needed to end the Blight and the idea of sending him to do the final blow as sort of a redeemer ending for him.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Man, can we go a single Loghain thread without someone mentioning how they killed him or why they don't like him?

[The Night Haunter]

Man, can we go a single Loghain thread without someone mentioning how they killed him or why they don't like him?

Any thread about a character is going to have opinions and, believe it or not, people often have different opinions. I loved Loghain, others hated him. If they never gave him a chance I might try to convince them why he is cool so they can experience it for themselves, but just saying 'I killed that traitorous bastard' to me is perfectly legit. They aren't trying to convince you that you made a wrong choice in sparing Loghain (the people that do do this are wrong, opinions are never facts) they are simply adding their thoughts about Loghain. There will never be a one-sided thread on the internet, and we should hope there is never a character in DAO that everyone absolutely loves, or absolutely hates, because that would make that character boring and one-sided. Having complex characters that people can love or hate is a good thing.

[In Exile]

The problem with Loghain is that he's an idiot, not just that he's a traitor. He basically bumbles from one incompetent choice to another, and the justifications people offer for his bumbling errors just make him look even more incompetent. He's just not useful. And there's no reason to keep an incompetent traitor alive. 

[The Night Haunter]

The problem with Loghain is that he's an idiot, not just that he's a traitor. He basically bumbles from one incompetent choice to another, and the justifications people offer for his bumbling errors just make him look even more incompetent. He's just not useful. And there's no reason to keep an incompetent traitor alive. 

Your opinion

[Jaison1986]

The problem with Loghain is that he's an idiot, not just that he's a traitor. He basically bumbles from one incompetent choice to another, and the justifications people offer for his bumbling errors just make him look even more incompetent. He's just not useful. And there's no reason to keep an incompetent traitor alive. 

 

It was more about the fact that his original plans backfired badly. Would you accept that people called you stupid and imcopetent for recruiting the mages only for them all to turn to demons and turn into abominations during the battle of Denerim? That was certanly out of your control.

[thats1evildude]

To paraphrase a quote from Watchmen: all Loghain did was fail to stop the Warden from saving the world.

[SilkieBantam]

I have one point of confusion here. When did Loghain make "multiple attempts" on the life of Cailan? I certainly understand the argument that he left Cailan to die on the field of battle, and some may or may not argue what his intentions were or were not with all that. But I don't recall anything in any of the books or in-game that stated or showed Loghain tried to kill Cailan multiple times. 

 

Got a source? Been a while since my last playthrough, so maybe I'm just totally forgetting something...

I was referring to Alistair there not Calain, sorry for the confusion. I think I posted that from my phone so it's possible I messed something up. 

 

What I was trying to get across is I think it's bad for business to put Alistair on the throne while sparing Loghain since he sent assassins after Alistair. If you make Alistair king and spare Loghain then you pretty much have a guy running around who tried to kill the current king. 

 

If you are going to spare Loghain I think that the best course of action is to kill Alistair or to exile him instead of putting him on the throne. 

[In Exile]

You're confusing Ferelden for an absolute monarchy, when in fact it is much closer to the Holy Roman Empire. in the HRE the Emperor's were elected by the most powerful nobles of the empire and they had little authority outside their direct holdings (and in fact the Diet - read Landsmeet - had little authority as well, until the Austrians started marrying and annexing everyone). Ferelden's King isn't an absolute ruler, he has the authority he can take and hold, if the Landsmeet think he is a tyrant and denounce him, then he is technically no longer King. Of course he could contest it and chop off some heads, but that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It didn't for Meghran. 

 

You're confusing the outward label of legitimacy used to suppress a threat with the political system itself. The Landsmeet elects Alistair by a wide margin. His rule isn't just his rule, but Eamon's rule, and whichever other nobles supported him. The intrigue isn't Alistiar vs. Loghain's lackeys, it's Eamon + his supporters vs. Loghain's lackeys, with the "Crown" just being the cover of legitimacy they're going to use to bring the minority in line. 

 

Anyone that sides with Loghain is trying to undermine the power of those nobles who were on the other side of the civil war, who - if we accept that Loghain was apparently good at war - lost their only actual military edge. The idea that these people would be loyal onto death is absurd. 

[In Exile]

It was more about the fact that his original plans backfired badly. Would you accept that people called you stupid and imcopetent for recruiting the mages only for them all to turn to demons and turn into abominations during the battle of Denerim? That was certanly out of your control.

 

I would call him stupid for not scouting the horde, for creating a plan at Ostagar whose only possible endgame was having the entire Vanguard surrounded and obliterated, and then for basically outing himself as a traitor by naming the murder of Bryce Cousland as his right hand. 

His original plans are moronic. The civil war is completely his fault, because his opening salvo is the most insanely confrontational and suspicious looking opening move possible. 

[The Night Haunter]

You're confusing the outward label of legitimacy used to suppress a threat with the political system itself. The Landsmeet elects Alistair by a wide margin. His rule isn't just his rule, but Eamon's rule, and whichever other nobles supported him. The intrigue isn't Alistiar vs. Loghain's lackeys, it's Eamon + his supporters vs. Loghain's lackeys, with the "Crown" just being the cover of legitimacy they're going to use to bring the minority in line. 

 

Anyone that sides with Loghain is trying to undermine the power of those nobles who were on the other side of the civil war, who - if we accept that Loghain was apparently good at war - lost their only actual military edge. The idea that these people would be loyal onto death is absurd. 

I'm not argueing that at all. I am simply stating in Ferelden the King isn't an absolute ruler. In a hypothetical situation where a noble 'rebels' against the King, with the support of the Landsmeet, that noble is, from the Ferelden legal perspective, in the right, while the King is then an illegitimate ruler. This all depends on the outcome of this rebellion, but a Ferelden King has relatively few personal vassals he can call upon relative to a Tevinter Archon, or even the Orliasian Emperor (though the Orlaisians suffer from a lesser version of this decentralized monarchy). Almost no rulers in Thedas (apart from potenially Navara, Tevinter and the Qunari) are absolute monarchs, in that they don't control their nations army, they depend upon nobles to raise levies, and these levies owe loyalty to the noble first, and the king second.

This is why there were so many rebellions in medieval Europe, decentralization makes the state weak relative to the nobility and it is hard to a King to enact this type of change because, as already stated, the nobility has an easier time deposing him.

[SilkieBantam]

I would call him stupid for not scouting the horde, for creating a plan at Ostagar whose only possible endgame was having the entire Vanguard surrounded and obliterated, and then for basically outing himself as a traitor by naming the murder of Bryce Cousland as his right hand. 

His original plans are moronic. The civil war is completely his fault, because his opening salvo is the most insanely confrontational and suspicious looking opening move possible. 

Didn't he have evidence of Darkspawn tunneling into the Tower of Ishal that he ignored or covered up as well? 

For some "general and warrior of renown" he's kind of a screw up. I never thought of that before. I just always thought of him as delusional and unstable. 

Someone as paranoid as he is isn't fit to be in charge of anything. I believe he was on his way to becoming another King Hamdo. 

 

Oh boy I was finally able to make a Now and Then, Here and There reference. 

[SilkieBantam]

Man, can we go a single Loghain thread without someone mentioning how they killed him or why they don't like him?

What if both applies to us?

I like Loghain a lot actually. I think he's a fun villain and I love chopping his head off at the Landsmeet.