140 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Haunter]

I would call him stupid for not scouting the horde, for creating a plan at Ostagar whose only possible endgame was having the entire Vanguard surrounded and obliterated, and then for basically outing himself as a traitor by naming the murder of Bryce Cousland as his right hand. 

His original plans are moronic. The civil war is completely his fault, because his opening salvo is the most insanely confrontational and suspicious looking opening move possible. 

Ostagar totally isn't his fault. Cailan wanted to press the attack without waiting for even Arl Eamon, despite not only Loghain counselling caution, but Duncan as well. Cailan was a glory hungry spoiled prince who thought war was a game to be played. He died for this misbelief. To Loghain's mind there was only one way to ensure Ferelden's eventual success, and that was to withdraw his army, rather than wasting them trying to save the King, who probably couldn't even be saved anyway. Cailan was king, and Loghain had no choice but to follow Cailan's stupid plan.

As for Howe, yes that was stupid, but he was trying to shore up his support quickly, moving against Howe would have only fractured Ferelden further. Had the Warden not survived Loghain would have quite handily won the civil war (no Eamon means no rallying point for those against him), and promptly lost the Blight because he didn't believe Warden were actually necessary.

He made some poor choices, but some of them were forced on him by an incompetent and glory hungry king.

[Todd23]

Ostagar totally isn't his fault. Cailan wanted to press the attack without waiting for even Arl Eamon, despite not only Loghain counselling caution, but Duncan as well. Cailan was a glory hungry spoiled prince who thought war was a game to be played. He died for this misbelief. To Loghain's mind there was only one way to ensure Ferelden's eventual success, and that was to withdraw his army, rather than wasting them trying to save the King, who probably couldn't even be saved anyway. Cailan was king, and Loghain had no choice but to follow Cailan's stupid plan.
As for Howe, yes that was stupid, but he was trying to shore up his support quickly, moving against Howe would have only fractured Ferelden further. Had the Warden not survived Loghain would have quite handily won the civil war (no Eamon means no rallying point for those against him), and promptly lost the Blight because he didn't believe Warden were actually necessary.
He made some poor choices, but some of them were forced on him by an incompetent and glory hungry king.

Did the forces of Ostagar launch an attack I'm unaware of? Because the battle I saw was actually at Ostagar. The darkspawn literally marched to the fort and attacked. Having the entire army wait in there tents as the darkspawn walked over them is no plan. Eamon's men weren't ditched they simply never arrived. It was Loghain who refused aid, from grey wardens no less. Blaming the lacking army on Cailan rather then the man who's number one priority was making sure no aid was received from across the boarders, planned the attack which relied enormously on his own men, then withdrawing them all before they saw any battle is beyond ludicrous.

[The Night Haunter]

Did the forces of Ostagar launch an attack I'm unaware of? Because the battle I saw was actually at Ostagar. The darkspawn literally marched to the fort and attacked. Having the entire army wait in there tents as the darkspawn walked over them is no plan. Eamon's men weren't ditched they simply never arrived. It was Loghain who refused aid, from grey wardens no less. Blaming the lacking army on Cailan rather then the man who's number one priority was making sure no aid was received from across the boarders, planned the attack which relied enormously on his own men, then withdrawing them all before they saw any battle is beyond ludicrous.

Since Ostagar is an abandoned fort it would make more sense to retreat and regroup with reinforcements. As a fort that hasn't seen maintenance in centuries it isn't going to be especially defensible to make it worthwhile trying to hold it without sufficient numbers. Since it is abandoned there are no civilians you are throwing to the wolves by falling back.

Cailan made a unilateral decision to attack the Darkspawn at Ostagar (and if you notice the whole army is outside the fortress - bar the archers - so they literally gained nothing by having the battle there).

Loghain advised Cailan not to attack, and he advised against accepting Orliasian help (rightly so since look at Gaspard, he wanted to invade Ferelden after the blight, if he'd been given command of an army of Chevaliers already inside Ferelden do you really think he would up and leave?), it was Cailans decision to have the battle then and there. He was an incompetent King and an awful general, more concerned with glory than actual tactics and strategy.

[The Night Haunter]

Please note: I am not saying you should spare Loghain, he did abandon his King and tries to kill you repeatedly. But there are plenty valid reasons why we can choose to spare him. There are also valid reasons to kill him. I try and spare him because I love the character.

[DragonRacer]

Man, can we go a single Loghain thread without someone mentioning how they killed him or why they don't like him?

 

Nope. Been that way with every thread that is either about Loghain or in which Loghain gets mentioned. Always spirals into a little debate. Sort of amusing. Been going on for yeeeeeears now. Like he's the Alpha and the Omega of DA. All threads either start about him or, eventually, end with him. 

 

The only other character who ignites the same sort of reaction by mere name is Anders (post-DA2). That tends to get interesting and/or totally derail threads as well, as if chaos is summoned merely by breathing the name.

[The Night Haunter]

Nope. Been that way with every thread that is either about Loghain or in which Loghain gets mentioned. Always spirals into a little debate. Sort of amusing. Been going on for yeeeeeears now. Like he's the Alpha and the Omega of DA. All threads either start about him or, eventually, end with him. 

 

The only other character who ignites the same sort of reaction by mere name is Anders (post-DA2). That tends to get interesting and/or totally derail threads as well, as if chaos is summoned merely by breathing the name.

You mentioned 'He Who Shall Not Be Named'!!!!! Chaos must ensue!!!!!

 

 

!!

!

?

[Char]

Nope. Been that way with every thread that is either about Loghain or in which Loghain gets mentioned. Always spirals into a little debate. Sort of amusing. Been going on for yeeeeeears now. Like he's the Alpha and the Omega of DA. All threads either start about him or, eventually, end with him. 
 
The only other character who ignites the same sort of reaction by mere name is Anders (post-DA2). That tends to get interesting and/or totally derail threads as well, as if chaos is summoned merely by breathing the name.

At the moment the events and characters of TME seem to be tying people in knots too I always find it interesting to see people's different motivations for liking/disliking a character. Everyone lives by slightly different standards, and everyone picks up on certain aspects as being more important than others. I find it fascinating

[In Exile]

Ostagar totally isn't his fault. Cailan wanted to press the attack without waiting for even Arl Eamon, despite not only Loghain counselling caution, but Duncan as well. Cailan was a glory hungry spoiled prince who thought war was a game to be played. He died for this misbelief. To Loghain's mind there was only one way to ensure Ferelden's eventual success, and that was to withdraw his army, rather than wasting them trying to save the King, who probably couldn't even be saved anyway. Cailan was king, and Loghain had no choice but to follow Cailan's stupid plan.

As for Howe, yes that was stupid, but he was trying to shore up his support quickly, moving against Howe would have only fractured Ferelden further. Had the Warden not survived Loghain would have quite handily won the civil war (no Eamon means no rallying point for those against him), and promptly lost the Blight because he didn't believe Warden were actually necessary.

He made some poor choices, but some of them were forced on him by an incompetent and glory hungry king.

 

The plan at Ostagar was unspeakably moronic. The fact that "flaking" is considered strategy is comical enough, but a pincer isn't even a good plan in the circumstances. Here is the ideal plan - it's a very basic pincer movement. 

 

                                                ||

    Loghain Darkspawn Cailain ||

                                                ||

 

Here is the problem with this pincer movement when enemy numbers are substantial:

 

Darkspawn Darkspawn Darkspawn         ||

 Darkspawn Loghain Darkspawn Cailain     ||

Darkspawn Darkspawn Darkspawn         ||

 

Loghain had exactly 0 idea what the darkspawn numbers were, and the plan only worked if the army was, basically, around even strength with the horde. Literally having Cailan's army wait on the other side of the pass at Ostagar would have been enough to save thousands of lives, because the darkspawn would have to force themselves through the narrow corridor, leading to: 

 

 

Darkspawn Darkspawn Darkspawn||

Darkspawn Darkspawn Darkspawn Darskpawn Cailain

Darkspawn Darkspawn Darkspawn ||

 

Cailain would still be scewed, obviously, but at least he wouldn't have been obliterated from the first go. 

 

Moving on to Howe, there was no support to fracture. Howe was literally committing the most obvious form of treason ever. No one would be stupid enough to side with him. The very idea that Howe's own vassal somehow sided with him in completely suicidal treason was absurd enough, but the idea that anyone else in Ferelden would do it is just fantasy. 

 

Loghain arrives and makes a traitor his right hand. Even if he didn't plan to betray Cailain, this moves makes everything look like a power-hungry move to become King of Ferelden. Instead, he could have blamed Howe for the betrayal. Seeing as how Howe betrayed Bryce, the sale isn't even hard. 

[DragonRacer]

You mentioned 'He Who Shall Not Be Named'!!!!! Chaos must ensue!!!!!

 

 

!!

!

?

 

Ulterior motive here. It's a science experiment.

 

If one mentions both Loghain AND Anders in the same thread, what kind of horrific vortex might be created?

 

Fade Breach, a-hoy!

[The Night Haunter]

Since you agree that Cailan was doomed why not allow that Loghains move was the only move with long term benefit for Ferelden (seeing as the Warden later gains control of this army he saved) and leave the idiot to his death.

 

As for Howe - Howe had a lot of power, as Arl of Amaranthine, plus control of Highever he had a lot of power. It would indeed have been smarter of Loghain to kill Howe and attempt to unify the Banns under that banner, then immediately spin the around and march them towards the darkspawn (disloyal banns in the front of course). But obviously politics isn't Loghains thing, and never was. He is a good soldier and tactician, but a politician he ain't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You understand that there actually was scouts out in the Wilds trying to acertain the Darkspawn numbers?

[The Night Haunter]

Ulterior motive here. It's a science experiment.

 

If one mentions both Loghain AND Anders in the same thread, what kind of horrific vortex might be created?

 

Fade Breach, a-hoy!

The demons invading in DAI are actually fans enraged to hulk status by both Loghain and Anders at the same time! They are going on a rampage to destroy everything DA to resolve their anger issues.

 

/DAI

[SilkieBantam]

Nope. Been that way with every thread that is either about Loghain or in which Loghain gets mentioned. Always spirals into a little debate. Sort of amusing. Been going on for yeeeeeears now. Like he's the Alpha and the Omega of DA. All threads either start about him or, eventually, end with him. 
 
The only other character who ignites the same sort of reaction by mere name is Anders (post-DA2). That tends to get interesting and/or totally derail threads as well, as if chaos is summoned merely by breathing the name.

I think that speaks positively to Loghain as a character though. I mean DAO is about 5 years old now and we're still able to get into these long passionate debates about him. I think the writers would be happy about that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder if Loghain is enjoying watching all the political strife Orlais is facing now. I can see him sitting in a Warden Keep that oversees a battle between Celene and Gaspard's forces with a bag of kettle corn and an ale. 

[The Night Haunter]

I wonder if Loghain is enjoying watching all the political strife Orlais is facing now. I can see him sitting in a Warden Keep that oversees a battle between Celene and Gaspard's forces with a bag of kettle corn and an ale. 

Totally. Maybe he even eggs on the loser.

 

"I thought your Chevaliers were supposed to be good! If I knew you were such pansies I wouldn't have stopped at the River Dane."

[Reaverwind]

Did the forces of Ostagar launch an attack I'm unaware of? Because the battle I saw was actually at Ostagar. The darkspawn literally marched to the fort and attacked. Having the entire army wait in there tents as the darkspawn walked over them is no plan. Eamon's men weren't ditched they simply never arrived. It was Loghain who refused aid, from grey wardens no less. Blaming the lacking army on Cailan rather then the man who's number one priority was making sure no aid was received from across the boarders, planned the attack which relied enormously on his own men, then withdrawing them all before they saw any battle is beyond ludicrous.

 

Not to mention, that while Cailan wasn't the brightest kid on the block, he did one thing right: delegate. He left the battle strategy to the man who was supposed to know what he was doing. At least part of the blame for the disaster belongs squarely on Loghain's shoulders - he vastly underestimated the enemy.

[In Exile]

Since you agree that Cailan was doomed why not allow that Loghains move was the only move with long term benefit for Ferelden (seeing as the Warden later gains control of this army he saved) and leave the idiot to his death.

 

As for Howe - Howe had a lot of power, as Arl of Amaranthine, plus control of Highever he had a lot of power. It would indeed have been smarter of Loghain to kill Howe and attempt to unify the Banns under that banner, then immediately spin the around and march them towards the darkspawn (disloyal banns in the front of course). But obviously politics isn't Loghains thing, and never was. He is a good soldier and tactician, but a politician he ain't.

 

Loghain is an idiot not for abandoning Cailain, but for coming up with a military plan so stupid it was basically impossible to win with it unless he outnumbered the darkspawn, and he assumed he had numerical superiority on the basis of all of his scouts coming back dead. That's holding the idiot ball really tightly. 

 

Going back to Howe, controlling Highever means less power. His attack worked because Fergus took away the entire might of the Couslands away - he basically sacked an empty lot. There were no banns to bend their knee to him, so all of a sudden he's annexed a great deal of territory without increasing his force, and committed a blatant and obvious treason against the Crown. And again, this assumes that somehow all of Amaranthine sat down and decided to get massacred by Cailan and Loghain the second they defeated the "darkspawn raid", since as far as they knew, there would be no threat at all to the army. 

 

The fact that Loghain is such an incredible moron that he outright starts the civil war by screaming to all of Ferelden he ordered Howe to kill Bryce isn't just being "bad" at politics, it's being intellectually deficient. If he can't wrap his head around how this is treason, again, he's not capable of doing anything worthwhile that justifies his further existence after the Landsmeet. 

[In Exile]

You understand that there actually was scouts out in the Wilds trying to acertain the Darkspawn numbers?

 

And they came back dead. When all of your scouts are dead, the sound tactical move is not to assume you have numerical superiority and craft a strategy that is just suicidal if you happen to be outnumbered. 

[The Night Haunter]

And they came back dead. When all of your scouts are dead, the sound tactical move is not to assume you have numerical superiority and craft a strategy that is just suicidal if you happen to be outnumbered. 

You're assuming a lot about the plan. Loghain advised a retreat. Cailan mentions that they knew the darkspawn outnumbered them, so I doubt including them outnumbering the darkspawn was a part of Loghains plan. The whole plan was Cailans, Loghain tried to make it better, but as we can tell from their brief interactions Cailan is very dismissive of Loghain. Loghain tries to bring up waiting for Eamon and Cailan throws the Orliasans in his face just to get his way. You can say it was Loghains idea to attack at Ostagar all you want, but the actual evidence in the game shows that Loghain wanted to wait, and Cailan didn't. A general can only do so much when his King is an idiot.

 

back to Highever: Cousland army is wiped out with the King (otherwise the human noble would already have an army right off the bat). So Howe is sitting pretty. But as I said Loghain could have attacked Howe with better effect than siding with him, but Loghain isn't good at politics. Plus hindsight is 20/20.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Didn't that guy in the Return to Ostagar DLC say that even Cailan knew Ostagar was a lost cause but used it more as a delaying action? 

[DRTJR]

The ogb would make a more interesting future plot than any of Loghain being alive by miles. So owff wiff his haeed.

but what if he is the father?

[Todd23]

If it was all Cailan's plan, then why did Loghain have to describe it to him during the meeting and Cailan even says how Loghain insists on boring him with "his strategies". I don't think Cailan's plans went beyond him and the Grey Wardens leading the charge. Just because Cailan wasn't a good enough strategist to make up for Loghain's incompetence doesn't mean it was his fault, as the king he didn't need to be the war strategist, the general did.

[The Night Haunter]

If it was all Cailan's plan, then why did Loghain have to describe it to him during the meeting and Cailan even says how Loghain insists on boring him with "his strategies". I don't think Cailan's plans went beyond him and the Grey Wardens leading the charge. Just because Cailan wasn't a good enough strategist to make up for Loghain's incompetence doesn't mean it was his fault, as the king he didn't need to be the war strategist, the general did.

And the generals preferred strategy was retreat. Cailan's was attack. Loghain's part of the plan - keeping most of the army in reserve - was a good plan. Had the darkspawn numbered less his army would have hit the darkspawn on the side while the focused on Cailan. As it was Loghain's advice to fall back turned out to be good advice. Given what Loghain could see Cailan was vastly outnumbered and so was he. The only sound plan that would waste the majority of Ferelden's able men on a useless gesture trying to save a foolish king was to retreat. Cailan backed himself into a corner, and Loghain made the only reasonable choice.

 

Was there a better plan for Ostagar? Sure, a fighting retreat, picking off the darkspawn's lead elements while slowly giving ground and waiting for Eamon. But Cailan already shot that down. Making a stand somewhere besides a forest, where you could actually see the full extent of the enemy and plan accordingly would have been good, but Cailan's hunger for glory put that plan to rest.

 

You keep calling Loghain an incompetent general, how would you have done better given that Cailan wasn't going to approve anything that wasn't a straight up battle?